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Thread: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    I would quibble, that all of the most expensive accidents that the public sector had to bailout, were due to private sector bottom line issues and "trying to save money", to benefit their stockholders.

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    I believe economies of scale favor the public sector. The physical layer should be the responsibly of the public sector.

    The positive benefits of public sector ownership, could be, redundant, fiber optics communications that are underground, along with other "conduits to markets".

    Capital intensive projects is what State Capitalism, is Good for.
    One huge problem with public control is their ability and propensity to charge based on ability to pay - how long before internet service is X% of annual AGI or assessed property value instead of $X/month based on connection speed?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Oh, dang, they've got you convinced that those price increases are due to cost, and not shareholder value...
    Contrary to the popular belief of many super liberals you do not get rich in this country by gouging people. You get wealthy by making a very small amount of money off of millions of people. Competition from other sources like Direct T.V and Dish networks do a pretty effective job of preventing cable companies from radically overcharging.


    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    How about instead, demand that the internet be declared an essential service (because let's face it, in 2018 it is), and get that monthly fee down to something everyone can afford? Have Netflix / Hula / whoever to add a buck to their service to pitch into the overall network, and call it a day? It's not about nerds wanting to play cheaper, just the same price...it's the ISP's who are milking you guys.
    No, it really isn't. This is one instance where your socialist beliefs don't match reality. By charging one flat rate for everyone to use a common good, you motivate people to use as much of that good as they possibly can. It's like going to a buffet where everyone pays a flat rate for all they can eat. Everyone eats way more than they normally would and usually ends up wasting a ton of food. You almost always get charged more than you would at other restaurants, either that or the food ends up being really really poor quality. Now, at least with a buffet there are certain limiting factors which help a lot. There's only so much a person can realistically eat in a sitting.

    Now I'll grant you that there are certain aspects of the internet that are an essential service, but Netflix, Hulu, online gaming, even Spotify are not part of that, and if you seriously think having them add a buck to their service to pitch in is really going to cover the cost you're living in a dream world. If you use the power of government to force these prices down I guarantee you that you're going to end up with poor quality service. I realize most cable companies already have poor customer service, but you will end up with slower speeds, more network down time... with no motivation from private companies to improve the quality of their networks they won't make the investments.

    A better solution would be to subsidize basic internet. Put in place requirements against throttling content based on political positions, and require that any ISP wanting to throttle a specific site must apply to the FCC to do so and demonstrate why that website is using an excessive amount of bandwidth, but allow for excessive and unessential services like Netflix, Hulu, Spotify, online gaming... to be billed accordingly.

    Spotify is a perfect example. My buddy has unlimited data. He has Spotify and regularly drives around playing music nonstop. Like his phone is just always playing and whatever blue tooth speaker he's closest to will pick it up for him. He doesn't even know that he can download songs to his phone rather than constantly re-stream them. I, on the other hand, do not have unlimited data. As a result, I'm more careful about making sure I'm on wifi when possible, and download the handful of playlists I'm listening to a lot currently for when I'm not. I don't use anywhere near the bandwidth he does, but's really not cramping my style at all.

    I love Spotify, but it is not an essential service, and if we were both using it responsibly there would be absolutely no reason why ISPs would need to be constantly upgrading their networks to get more bandwidth. The prices would level off.

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    One huge problem with public control is their ability and propensity to charge based on ability to pay - how long before internet service is X% of annual AGI or assessed property value instead of $X/month based on connection speed?
    That is a special pleading issue that is up for debate. With public sector responsibility, infrastructure would be built as needed; regardless of profit motive.

    With the scale economies the public sector can bring to bear, there is no reason to believe the private sector will be unable to find arbitrage opportunities, with any economies of scale they can muster, to their profit motive.

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Oh, dang, they've got you convinced that those price increases are due to cost, and not shareholder value...

    How about instead, demand that the internet be declared an essential service (because let's face it, in 2018 it is), and get that monthly fee down to something everyone can afford? Have Netflix / Hula / whoever to add a buck onto their service to pitch in to the overall network, and call it a day? It's not about nerds wanting to play cheaper, just the same price...it's the ISP's who are milking you guys.
    That (bolded above) presents a key problem. What "one can afford" varies based on their ability to pay (income and assets?). Taxation now varies between negative rates/amounts and very high rates/amounts. Be very careful what you ask for or you might just get it.

    What other private goods/services should be socialized and priced based on one's ability to pay? Should my car payment be based on my ability to pay or on the value of the car? Should my rent be based on my ability to pay or on the value of the property?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    I build these networks and know traffic flows. Believe me, bandwidth needs are growing faster than anyone outside of our industry can possibly imagine.
    Right, I mean do you seriously need to stream everything on demand all the time. If you know you want to watch something, set it to download. Have it download during non-peak hours, and it can be available on your hard drive anytime. Computer Memory is insanely cheap, let's use it. It's very similar to what electric companies are trying to do with in-home batteries.

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    That is a special pleading issue that is up for debate. With public sector responsibility, infrastructure would be built as needed; regardless of profit motive.

    With the scale economies the public sector can bring to bear, there is no reason to believe the private sector will be unable to find arbitrage opportunities, with any economies of scale they can muster, to their profit motive.
    That is precisely what we are doing - debating the merits and pitfalls of socializing vs. regulating internet service providers.

    Public infrastructure is not built based on needs it is built based on the whims of elected officials. We have poor maintenance of existing roads and bridges. When my private internet is down I can (and do) demand a discount or switch providers - when the public roads are full of holes, detours and lumpy patches I have no such options.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 03-08-18 at 12:39 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    Contrary to the popular belief of many super liberals you do not get rich in this country by gouging people. You get wealthy by making a very small amount of money off of millions of people. Competition from other sources like Direct T.V and Dish networks do a pretty effective job of preventing cable companies from radically overcharging.




    No, it really isn't. This is one instance where your socialist beliefs don't match reality. By charging one flat rate for everyone to use a common good, you motivate people to use as much of that good as they possibly can. It's like going to a buffet where everyone pays a flat rate for all they can eat. Everyone eats way more than they normally would and usually ends up wasting a ton of food. You almost always get charged more than you would at other restaurants, either that or the food ends up being really really poor quality. Now, at least with a buffet there are certain limiting factors which help a lot. There's only so much a person can realistically eat in a sitting.

    Now I'll grant you that there are certain aspects of the internet that are an essential service, but Netflix, Hulu, online gaming, even Spotify are not part of that, and if you seriously think having them add a buck to their service to pitch in is really going to cover the cost you're living in a dream world. If you use the power of government to force these prices down I guarantee you that you're going to end up with poor quality service. I realize most cable companies already have poor customer service, but you will end up with slower speeds, more network down time... with no motivation from private companies to improve the quality of their networks they won't make the investments.

    A better solution would be to subsidize basic internet. Put in place requirements against throttling content based on political positions, and require that any ISP wanting to throttle a specific site must apply to the FCC to do so and demonstrate why that website is using an excessive amount of bandwidth, but allow for excessive and unessential services like Netflix, Hulu, Spotify, online gaming... to be billed accordingly.

    Spotify is a perfect example. My buddy has unlimited data. He has Spotify and regularly drives around playing music nonstop. Like his phone is just always playing and whatever blue tooth speaker he's closest to will pick it up for him. He doesn't even know that he can download songs to his phone rather than constantly re-stream them. I, on the other hand, do not have unlimited data. As a result, I'm more careful about making sure I'm on wifi when possible, and download the handful of playlists I'm listening to a lot currently for when I'm not. I don't use anywhere near the bandwidth he does, but's really not cramping my style at all.

    I love Spotify, but it is not an essential service, and if we were both using it responsibly there would be absolutely no reason why ISPs would need to be constantly upgrading their networks to get more bandwidth. The prices would level off.
    My friend...you know I love most of what you have to say, but I'm not with you on this one.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6c5b39f772cb

    Here's another approach:

    Internet in America: The biggest problem, a lack of competition, could be solved by a radical idea - Business Insider

    There are always options...it just depends on whether your priority is to do what's good for the customer or the shareholder.
    Life's too short...

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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is precisely what we are doing - debating the merits and pitfalls of socializing vs. regulating internet service providers.

    Public infrastructure is not built based on needs it is built based on the whims of elected officials. We have poor maintenance of existing roads and bridges. When my private internet is down I can (and do) demand a discount or switch providers - when the public roads are full of holes, detours and lumpy patches I have no such options.
    The point is, our Moon landing, Hoover Dam, or the Tennessee Valley Authority, are capital intensive and required State Capitalism.

    What you claim as a problem, is due to right wing "tax cut economics" and starving the beast through across the board cuts to government spending.

  10. #20
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    Re: Positive Benefits to Ending Net Neutrality...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    The point is, our Moon landing, Hoover Dam, or the Tennessee Valley Authority, are capital intensive and required State Capitalism.

    What you claim as a problem, is due to right wing "tax cut economics" and starving the beast through across the board cuts to government spending.
    Yep, with more (unlimited?) taxation everything will be fixed. All we need to get wonderful ISPs is for a select few to pay more taxes.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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