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The REAL reasons for mass shootings.

markjs

markjs

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The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
 
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markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

what do you think "semi autos" are and why should they be limited?
 
TurtleDude said:
what do you think "semi autos" are and why should they be limited?
Click to expand...

Way to completely miss the point. This is proof you are not worth discussing anything with. I clearly said I'm fine with that or not, and that I don't think it's the issue and all you can do is look for a partisan fight to pick?
 
Tim the plumber said:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...&hvtargid=kwd-15633983&ref=pd_sl_6m3ji1cuuk_b

I would like to see this as general reading for all.

In mental health we have recently come a long way. 20 years ago there was no decent treatment for many problems. Today we can fix lots of things without drugs, just a bit of counciling. Give it a try or a read.
Click to expand...

Thank you for trying to add to the discussion and talk about the solution and not sinking to the level of trying to get some petty partisan bickering going on. This is not a discussion about guns, it's a discussion of being there for our kids that obviously need us.
 
markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

Most mass killers are not kids.
 
markjs said:
Thank you for trying to add to the discussion and talk about the solution and not sinking to the level of trying to get some petty partisan bickering going on. This is not a discussion about guns, it's a discussion of being there for our kids that obviously need us.
Click to expand...

It's not much of a discussion at all. It is hand-wringing and the gnashing of teeth, and not much more.

In too many cases "mass shootings" under close scrutiny turn out to be staged events.
 
markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

I agree to an extent with what you pose. The notion that its the societal and family frameworks of today are causing this is not too wrong, nor is it completely right. The primary question one should ask is why are these mass shootings happening?? The answer to this is such a debatable topic and for anyone to have any claim to know the answer is wrong. In the short term, I believe, heavier legislation and even banning of firearms is needed. The legislation and processes involved in implemented such constructs can be implemented in the short term to achieve some sort of viable safety. The issues you pose are long term solutions to long term (or better still) somewhat insolvable problems. There is only so much education, legislation and information that can convincingly alter or change how individuals are brought up. However it starts with the basics of education, addressing mental health etc..
 
markjs said:
Way to completely miss the point. This is proof you are not worth discussing anything with. I clearly said I'm fine with that or not, and that I don't think it's the issue and all you can do is look for a partisan fight to pick?
Click to expand...

you seem to think its not relevant-then why mention it
 
When you say it's parents, I think you're close to the answer. It is parents and every other adult role model in our society. We, the adults, worship violence and the children learn that from us. Our movies and media are full of gun play, revenge fantasies and violence, as a solution, without consequences. It's not just what we do, it's who we are.

As a nation, violence is the subtext to our self stated greatness. When you ask Americans what's so great about our country, the abstract "freedoms" are listed but our military power is often at the top of the list. The bumper sticker "support our troops" is a common message from conservatives and liberals alike. I've yet to see one that says "support our diplomatic core". Their relative value is obvious. We have military bases around the world because, though our politicians reserve violence as a "last resort", it's really not. It's a bludgeon that we use as the consolation prize for diplomatic failures and every other country knows it. Our love of guns is at the foundation of this bully culture.

Our children are like us, aware of their weaknesses and unable to accept them. They do what many do when we find ourselves unable to realize the American standards of strength, beauty or success. They stew in their inadequacies and plot against the society that created the unachievable standard for them. They punish those to whom they are unfairly compared.

There is no way out of the violence problem that doesn't include a shift in American attitudes toward the perceived dividends of violence. As long as we treat murder like the unspoken ace up our sleeve, we can't be surprised when so many- even children- play that card.
 
markjs said:
Yet it's still where the problem starts in many cases.
Click to expand...

Yes all adults were once kids. But plenty of kids/adults who have/had very bad parents dont end up killing a bunch of people; the majority do not kill people.

You are 100% blaming teachers, peers, and the parents? What about the individual that did the crime? I hate to break it to you, but no matter how well you raise a child they can end up as heartless assholes. People with good parents excellent teachers and awesome friends can commit horrible crimes.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Yes all adults were once kids. But plenty of kids/adults who have/had very bad parents dont end up killing a bunch of people; the majority do not kill people.

You are 100% blaming teachers, peers, and the parents? What about the individual that did the crime? I hate to break it to you, but no matter how well you raise a child they can end up as heartless assholes. People with good parents excellent teachers and awesome friends can commit horrible crimes.
Click to expand...

It's a cultural issue, this doesn't happen elsewhere in the world, there's something wrong in our culture. I think it has a lot to do with disconnected society and that starts at home.
 
markjs said:
It's a cultural issue, this doesn't happen elsewhere in the world, there's something wrong in our culture. I think it has a lot to do with disconnected society and that starts at home.
Click to expand...

Rampant materialism, competition, greed, fear, no social safety net, no teaching of work ethic, spiritual vacuum, obsession with self, children over-protected or ignored or both at different times......it's a dying culture.

Many millions are being traumatized and slowly destroyed daily........some die sooner because they get shot.

Maybe they're the lucky ones.
 
markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

This post pissed me off.

When I read what it was like for the Parkland shooter's mother in the months preceding her death I felt a deep sense of sympathy. The asshat had domestically abused that woman to the point she was terrified of him. His behavioral problems were in the extreme long before he took off and killed people. I can't blame her. He was dealing with crap all the way back to his preteen years.
 
goldkam said:
I agree to an extent with what you pose. The notion that its the societal and family frameworks of today are causing this is not too wrong, nor is it completely right. The primary question one should ask is why are these mass shootings happening?? The answer to this is such a debatable topic and for anyone to have any claim to know the answer is wrong. In the short term, I believe, heavier legislation and even banning of firearms is needed. The legislation and processes involved in implemented such constructs can be implemented in the short term to achieve some sort of viable safety. The issues you pose are long term solutions to long term (or better still) somewhat insolvable problems. There is only so much education, legislation and information that can convincingly alter or change how individuals are brought up. However it starts with the basics of education, addressing mental health etc..
Click to expand...

When a young Muslim in a foreign country engages in a violent act it is terrorism. When a young white kid in America engages in a violent act it is a societal failure.
 
markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

People choose such methods in order to make it big. There's no other reason. They choose the method that will do exactly what they want to do.

All this started in the 80's with a little phrase called "going postal", when a few guys each took their frustrations out on the different post offices that they worked for. Then we had the 101 California incident in the 90s, and as the AR has gained popularity as an attack weapon, people have taken to it get their point across and take out as many as fast as they can.

The American society is just way too stressed and people with nothing to lose are going to fight back at it.
 
CriticalThought said:
When a young Muslim in a foreign country engages in a violent act it is terrorism. When a young white kid in America engages in a violent act it is a societal failure.
Click to expand...

What political aims does the young white kid have ??

Bad analogy.
 
markjs said:
The guns aren't it, and neither is mental health. That said I wouldn't mind tighter background checks and more limits on semi autos, or not, I don't think that will change much either way. Nor do I think armed teachers is the answer; I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut it causes trouble before it saves anyone, we shall see.

The thing that's causing this is the one thing NOBODY wants to look at, nobody want to take this blame because this blame can only be placed when looking in the mirror!

Parents these days, its not lack of religion or faith, or any of that, though that stuff can be good or bad like anything, depending on it's apllication. I've seen agnostics and religious folks alike sucessfully raise great kids. The simple fact is though, most of us, well intentioned as we are, are either to caught up in making a living, the daily grind or whatever it is, and have too little idea of how even to relate to our kids much less parent. All too often parenting consists of paying not a ton of attention, till the kid gets in trouble, then getting emotionally bent, punishing too severely, maybe taking it bakc later, being inconsistent, maybe, whatever it is. Sometimes it's mild physical abuse (which does not work ultimately) maybe it's neglect.

See they barely teach balancing a check account, interest rates, all the basic crap a kid needs to learn to adult much less prosper in this society anymore. Boys are shunned from home ec, if even it's offered anymore, and parenting classes? You gotta be kidding me, but even if it's a good kid, not having sex or making kids, how bad could a parenting course in health be for them?

Then there's bullying, overworked, underpaid teachers not connecting. Don't get me wrong, I give this maybe 10% to teachers, 20% bullies and peers, but a good 70% of the blame is at home. Even the best intentioned parents stuggle, and kids come with no operators manual. It's time we get to acknowleging the real reason our kids get so isolated, frustrated, and feel so alone,. Most of these kids aren't sociopaths, or even necessarily bad seeds, but neglect these problems long enough and they fester, when just learning to involve ourselves, be aware what is going on with our kids, not over disciplining, and definitely not neglecting disciple (worse). No I do not suggest trying to be your kids best friend, but something between authority and friend seems about right. That extra effort to connect with opur kids, if anything can reduce these incidenst, that is the one thing that will work.
Click to expand...

One thing that is very common of not universal is that the people who commit mass shootings are men. Something about our culture today is that there are a lot of boys and men being raised without a father. Meaning they are raised in single parent homes where the only parent must work. In a more traditional family there would be two parents to talk to. Even if a family is divorced a father can be part of the boy's life. I find this to be extremely important because a father instills discipline they make rules and have expectations that a boy must work too meet.

I think the biggest contributing factor to this and quite frankly most crime in general is boys growing up without fathers in their lives.
 
CriticalThought said:
When a young Muslim in a foreign country engages in a violent act it is terrorism.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. It's only considered terrorism if the act was an act of violence against civilians in the pursuit of political aims.

When a young white kid in America engages in a violent act it is a societal failure.
Click to expand...
Not true. Is consider some of the incidents during antifa protest riots to bee acts of terrorism and most of those people are white.
 
CriticalThought said:
This post pissed me off.

When I read what it was like for the Parkland shooter's mother in the months preceding her death I felt a deep sense of sympathy. The asshat had domestically abused that woman to the point she was terrified of him. His behavioral problems were in the extreme long before he took off and killed people. I can't blame her. He was dealing with crap all the way back to his preteen years.
Click to expand...

why wasn't his father around to beat his ass for hurting his mother? If I dared even mouth off to my mother my father would take me over his knee without a chance of escape. This bastard's father thought? Where was he? Dead? In the home impregnating more women?

Not a word about the father of this man.
 
CriticalThought said:
When a young Muslim in a foreign country engages in a violent act it is terrorism. When a young white kid in America engages in a violent act it is a societal failure.
Click to expand...

To your first point. Terrorism by definition is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims", thus by blanketing a statement on "muslim", "young" and "violent" does not imply political motivations. Why has that go anything to do with firearms in the US??

I agree a societal failure in not removing an object, a firearm, from the normality of daily lives. A failure of mental health programs also.
 
CLAX1911 said:
why wasn't his father around to beat his ass for hurting his mother? If I dared even mouth off to my mother my father would take me over his knee without a chance of escape. This bastard's father thought? Where was he? Dead? In the home impregnating more women?

Not a word about the father of this man.
Click to expand...

The mother adopted Cruz. Both parents were out of the picture.
 
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