Where are you on the Death Penalty?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

I'm for the death penalty where there is no doubt of who committed the crime, and the offender showed a disregard for their victims. Both apply in this case.

spud_meister said:

I'm for the death penalty where there is no doubt of who committed the crime, and the offender showed a disregard for their victims. Both apply in this case.

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:yt

agreed

TNHarley said:

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

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I'm all for the death penalty for multiple murders, and for murder in connection with any other capital crime like rape, arson, kidnapping or robbery (including car-jacking).

Under Universal Law, those people have voluntarily forfeited their lives for committing such violent acts. They can never be trusted again, and have no purpose in society, so executing them is not only just and proper, but also necessary.

Mircea said:

I'm all for the death penalty for multiple murders, and for murder in connection with any other capital crime like rape, arson, kidnapping or robbery (including car-jacking).

Under Universal Law, those people have voluntarily forfeited their lives for committing such violent acts. They can never be trusted again, and have no purpose in society, so executing them is not only just and proper, but also necessary.

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I remember you from another forum. I enjoy your postings.
Cheers!

TNHarley said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

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Leaving alone the conflicting (in your post) charges - it makes more sense to accept a guilty plea with an LWOP sentence than to guarantee funding a "show" trial (allowing for procedural error) and multiple appeals. That young, mass murdering punk will likely die sooner without the DP.

I'm all for it when there is 100% evidence that cannot not be refuted. Short of that, life.

TNHarley said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

Click to expand...

I'm against the death penalty on religious grounds. In Christianity no one is beyond redemption. The apostle Paul was guilty of murdering the apostle Stephen but he was redeemed and became a great Christian.

The other issue is you can't ever know with 100% certainty that someone is guilty. Even with Cruz, we can't know with 100% that he was genuinely responsible for his actions and not mentally impaired. Maybe he's mildly retarded and that in combination with the death of his parents and some bullying resulted in his horrific actions.

We should accept the limitations of human justice and avoid imposing the ultimate penalty.

I'm against it. There are certainly instances where we all think some guy should be dead, but the general process is flawed and far more expensive than life in prison without parole. Government is not god, and no longer needs the death penalty for proper justice or our overall security.

I am all for the death penalty providing that the person on trial for the crime has all the same resources of the state at their disposal at their trial and appeal.

ud_meister said:

I'm for the death penalty where there is no doubt of who committed the crime, and the offender showed a disregard for their victims. Both apply in this case.

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And if this young man had a psychotic episode which prompted the shooting would you think different. He is an angry young man, instead of ostracisizing him by expulsion he should have been in therapy. I'm not in favour of executing a mentally ill person.

yankintx said:

And if this young man had a psychotic episode which prompted the shooting would you think different. He is an angry young man, instead of ostracisizing him by expulsion he should have been in therapy. I'm not in favour of executing a mentally ill person.

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I would agree; No one in their 'right mind' would go and shoot up a school full of kids, IMO ........

TNHarley said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

Click to expand...

Absolutely against it. Why? As badly as some deserve to be put to death, if we allow the death penalty, then there are going to be some innocents who slip through the cracks and who are wrongfully executed - just look at the Innocence Project's track record at getting innocent people taken off death row (usually by presenting DNA evidence that was either unavailable or simply untested at the time). Ten thousand "proper" executions do not justify even one execution of an innocent man or woman.

TNHarley said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

Click to expand...

I am opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances and oppose the death penalty here too.

spud_meister said:

I'm for the death penalty where there is no doubt of who committed the crime, and the offender showed a disregard for their victims. Both apply in this case.

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I would feel no remorse if they killed him, but I think this has to be looked at from a systemic perspective.


The question should not be "how do I feel if this person is executed?" The question should be "looking at who we executed, at who has been proven innocent before and after conviction, and at all whom could not be proven innocent afterwards because of lesser technologies in earlier times, is this a system we can morally support?"

I say no.

(I also tend to think that life in prison may very well be worse, particularly in Supermax. BUT, I do not claim to know and do not assert this as a certainty).



I further think that it is worth listening to what a brilliant author who was saved from execution at more or less the last moment has to say.....

"Well, at all events it is a good thing that there's no pain when the poor fellow's head flies off," he remarked. "Do you know, though," cried the prince warmly, "you made that remark now, and everyone says the same thing, and the machine is designed with the purpose of avoiding pain, this guillotine I mean; but a thought came into my head then: what if it be a bad plan after all? You may laugh at my idea, perhaps—but I could not help its occurring to me all the same. Now with the rack and tortures and so on—you suffer terrible pain of course; but then your torture is bodily pain only (although no doubt you have plenty of that) until you die. But here I should imagine the most terrible part of the whole punishment is, not the bodily pain at all—but the certain knowledge that in an hour,—then in ten minutes, then in half a minute, then now—this very instant—your soul must quit your body and that you will no longer be a man—and that this is certain, certain! That's the point—the certainty of it. Just that instant when you place your head on the block and hear the iron grate over your head—then—that quarter of a second is the most awful of all.

"This is not my own fantastical opinion—many people have thought the same; but I feel it so deeply that I'll tell you what I think. I believe that to execute a man for murder is to punish him immeasurably more dreadfully than is equivalent to his crime. A murder by sentence is far more dreadful than a murder committed by a criminal. The man who is attacked by robbers at night, in a dark wood, or anywhere, undoubtedly hopes and hopes that he may yet escape until the very moment of his death. There are plenty of instances of a man running away, or imploring for mercy—at all events hoping on in some degree—even after his throat was cut. But in the case of an execution, that last hope—having which it is so immeasurably less dreadful to die,—is taken away from the wretch and certainty substituted in its place! There is his sentence, and with it that terrible certainty that he cannot possibly escape death—which, I consider, must be the most dreadful anguish in the world. You may place a soldier before a cannon's mouth in battle, and fire upon him—and he will still hope. But read to that same soldier his death-sentence, and he will either go mad or burst into tears. Who dares to say that any man can suffer this without going mad? No, no! it is an abuse, a shame, it is unnecessary—why should such a thing exist? Doubtless there may be men who have been sentenced, who have suffered this mental anguish for a while and then have been reprieved; perhaps such men may have been able to relate their feelings afterwards. Our Lord Christ spoke of this anguish and dread. No! no! no! No man should be treated so, no man, no man!"

The Idiot by Fyodor Dostoyevsky - Free Ebook

yankintx said:

And if this young man had a psychotic episode which prompted the shooting would you think different. He is an angry young man, instead of ostracisizing him by expulsion he should have been in therapy. I'm not in favour of executing a mentally ill person.

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I would think differently. However, he'd planned and premeditated the shooting, it was not a random act of violence, but a calculated act of cruelty, which is what makes it worthy of the death penalty.

cuban smokes said:

I would agree; No one in their 'right mind' would go and shoot up a school full of kids, IMO ........

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What other proof is needed that he's crazy?

TNHarley said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.

Click to expand...

I have no problem with the death penalty. I also have no problem with letting him live in gen pop in prison. There are a lot of things that people in prison do that are horrible. But one thing I have noticed is that almost universally they despise people that mess with children. So either way Cruz is in for a short life span. And I have no problem with it.

Kal'Stang said:

I have no problem with the death penalty. I also have no problem with letting him live in gen pop in prison. There are a lot of things that people in prison do that are horrible. But one thing I have noticed is that almost universally they despise people that mess with children. So either way Cruz is in for a short life span. And I have no problem with it.

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Is the execution of innocents then acceptable because we have also executed the guilty?

"No problem" is a very broad statement.

I oppose the death penalty in any circumstance. I deny my government the right of life or death over me, or any other citizen.

spud_meister said:

I would think differently. However, he'd planned and premeditated the shooting, it was not a random act of violence, but a calculated act of cruelty, which is what makes it worthy of the death penalty.

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It does not prove the man did not have an extended psychotic episode. They can last for weeks with out meds.

Mr Person said:

I would feel no remorse if they killed him, but I think this has to be looked at from a systemic perspective.


The question should not be "how do I feel if this person is executed?" The question should be "looking at who we executed, at who has been proven innocent before and after conviction, and at all whom could not be proven innocent afterwards because of lesser technologies in earlier times, is this a system we can morally support?"

I say no.

(I also tend to think that life in prison may very well be worse, particularly in Supermax. BUT, I do not claim to know and do not assert this as a certainty).

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That's why my support for the death penalty hinges on no doubt of guilt. I would not support the death penalty for many of the cases for which it is applied because of that.

I further think that it is worth listening to what a brilliant author who was saved from execution at more or less the last moment has to say.....

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Is death not an inevitability for everyone though? A person on life in prison has a far longer wait for the certainty of death. But if we're citing authors, I like Heinlein's take:

Well, if there was no way to keep it from happening once, there was only one sure way to keep it from happening twice. Which we had used.
If Dillinger had understood what he was doing (which seemed incredible) then he got what was coming to him... except that it seemed a shame that he hadn’t suffered as much as had little Barbara Anne — he practically hadn’t suffered at all.
But suppose, as seemed more likely, that he was so crazy that he had never been aware that he was doing anything wrong? What then? Well, we shoot mad dogs, don’t we? Yes, but being crazy that way is a sickness — I couldn’t see but two possibilities. Either he couldn’t be made well — in which case he was better dead for his own sake and for the safety of others — or he could be treated and made sane. In which case (it seemed to me) if he ever became sane enough for civilized society... and thought over what he had done while he was "sick" — what could be left for him but suicide? How could he live with himself? And suppose he escaped before he was cured and did the same thing again? And maybe again? How do you explain that to bereaved parents? In view of his record? I couldn’t see but one answer.

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https://wrathoftheawakenedsaxon.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/starship_troopers_-_robert_heinlein.pdf

yankintx said:

It does not prove the man did not have an extended psychotic episode. They can last for weeks with out meds.

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How is he less culpable if his actions are the consequence of his choice to not take his meds?

spud_meister said:

Is death not an inevitability for everyone though? A person on life in prison has a far longer wait for the certainty of death. But if we're citing authors, I like Heinlein's take:

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Death is an inevitability for everyone.

Forced death at a specific date and time is Dostoyevsky's point. I haven't been there, but he really was. I tend to trust people who are both brilliant and have no motive to lie.



But either way, the more emotional-aimed appeal of Dostoyevsky is not what I rely on for my opinion. I rely on the repeated systemic failures of the death penalty. I also rely on the fact that I personally - at least now, not facing a death sentence - think it would be worse to spend the rest of my life in a small concrete box, allowed out only one hour a day (supermax - which is where we send the worst, like the marathon bomber). There, I suspect, you slowly lose your mind. You lose your self. But not in an instant. Slowly. Eventually you die a mad animal.

Anyway, my main objection is that far too many innocents have been executed and far too many more were likely innocent but simply didn't have access to the evidence to prove it given technological advancements that were very recent in human history.



Like I said, I won't shed a tear if this scum dies tonight. BUT, I oppose having a death penalty. There simply is no good way to draw a red line between so-called obvious guilt and not-as-obvious guilt.

You might think "what about a confession"? Well, there are many proven false confessions, even of people executed.

You might think "what about video"? Ok, but what about the objectively guilty person who isn't executed vs. the objectively guilty person who is, just because of a difference between whether there was video?

I think justice system should strive to do everything it can to ensure equal outcomes in equal cases, or at least get as close as possible. The trouble with the death penalty is that you can't remedy things if you screwed up and executed the person.