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Where are you on the Death Penalty?

I’m against the death penalty. Does Cruz deserve to die? Sure. He deserves to be flayed alive and have fire ants eat him alive.

But there are things I don’t want my government in the business of doing.
 
TNHarley said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.
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I am pro-death penalty in all cases where there is no reasonable doubt of guilt. And their certainly is no doubt in Nickolas Cruz's case. It would be stupid to offer him a deal.
 
nota bene said:
I am opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances and oppose the death penalty here too.
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I think in this case Cruz should face a firing squad with the shooters using AR 15s.
 
yankintx said:
It does not prove the man did not have an extended psychotic episode. They can last for weeks with out meds.
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I don't care if he had a psychotic episode or not. Kill the bastard.
 
spud_meister said:
How is he less culpable if his actions are the consequence of his choice to not take his meds?
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Why did he stop taking the meds? Many antidepressants exeperate a patients illness. Coming off the meds involves a host of side effects. It can actually increase suicidal and homicidal thoughts. I guess we can agree to not hang Cruz until we see a psychological assesment. Some folks here are so ready to hang this guy with out due diligence.
 
Ikari said:
I'm against it. There are certainly instances where we all think some guy should be dead, but the general process is flawed and far more expensive than life in prison without parole. Government is not god, and no longer needs the death penalty for proper justice or our overall security.
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Money is not the issue.

Neither is security of our society.

His mental or emotional condition is irrelevant. There are no excuses.

Government will not determine his future. 12 of his peers and a judge will make the decision.

Punishment for his deeds demands appropriate justice, his death. The end of his life for ending 17 innocent lives, wounding others, with the same consideration he gave his victims, none.
 
Mr Person said:
Death is an inevitability for everyone.

Forced death at a specific date and time is Dostoyevsky's point. I haven't been there, but he really was. I tend to trust people who are both brilliant and have no motive to lie.



But either way, the more emotional-aimed appeal of Dostoyevsky is not what I rely on for my opinion. I rely on the repeated systemic failures of the death penalty. I also rely on the fact that I personally - at least now, not facing a death sentence - think it would be worse to spend the rest of my life in a small concrete box, allowed out only one hour a day (supermax - which is where we send the worst, like the marathon bomber). There, I suspect, you slowly lose your mind. You lose your self. But not in an instant. Slowly. Eventually you die a mad animal.

Anyway, my main objection is that far too many innocents have been executed and far too many more were likely innocent but simply didn't have access to the evidence to prove it given technological advancements that were very recent in human history
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I don't disagree with much here, and what I do are matters of point of view, and not a great debate.

Like I said, I won't shed a tear if this scum dies tonight. BUT, I oppose having a death penalty. There simply is no good way to draw a red line between so-called obvious guilt and not-as-obvious guilt.

You might think "what about a confession"? Well, there are many proven false confessions, even of people executed.

You might think "what about video"? Ok, but what about the objectively guilty person who isn't executed vs. the objectively guilty person who is, just because of a difference between whether there was video?

I think justice system should strive to do everything it can to ensure equal outcomes in equal cases, or at least get as close as possible. The trouble with the death penalty is that you can't remedy things if you screwed up and executed the person.
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Confession's aren't reliable, I'm aware of that. But if a totality of evidence (video, eyewitness, confession, circumstantial, forensic) all confirm the person committed the crime, and there's no doubt of guilt, then their execution isn't a question of morality, but of practicality. And that's why I'd reserve the death penalty for the most heinous crimes, where the criminal has shown a blatant disregard for the humanity of their victims, where it would be immoral to allow them any chance of hurting more people (even if that is only fellow prisoners).

The justice system should be equal, but that's a fantasy. Justice outcomes are dependent on so many other factors, including how good the lawyers are, how the judge is feeling that day, which judge an individual gets, the race, or gender, or marital status of the criminal. You can only ensure the same rules are applied to everyone, the outcomes are up to a myriad of factors.
 
Manc Skipper said:
I oppose the death penalty in any circumstance. I deny my government the right of life or death over me, or any other citizen.
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I have been on the fence over the death penalty. I can understand and even condone the anger and frustration many feel over this shooting. Do I believe the State have the Right to take an individuals life, probably not.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I have no problem with the death penalty. I also have no problem with letting him live in gen pop in prison. There are a lot of things that people in prison do that are horrible. But one thing I have noticed is that almost universally they despise people that mess with children. So either way Cruz is in for a short life span. And I have no problem with it.
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Look what happened to Jeffrey Dahmer when he got put in with the general population. I think that death, at the hands of two fellow inmates, was probably more painful than getting a great last meal and being gently put to sleep like we do our beloved pets. So I think what you said here sums it all up for me.
 
yankintx said:
I have been on the fence over the death penalty. I can understand and even condone the anger and frustration many feel over this shooting. Do I believe the State have the Right to take an individuals life, probably not.
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You speak of the State as an entity separate from people. The State has no stake in his life or death. 17 dead people demand his death.
 
There must be a balance between the god-given rights of man and the ability for society to run itself according to the way it wishes to be run.

The idea that the death penalty should be banned from a libertarian point of view doesn't seem clear cut to me; So long as due process was properly applied, the government is empowered to strip the liberties of individuals. At the same time however, we know that government is incapable of perfection, including in its ability to conduct due process. With this in mind, I believe that the federal government should be permanently barred from applying the death penalty outside of cases arriving within the armed forces, and states ought to, by referendum of their respective people, decide whether or not to permit or ban the death penalty.

I personally oppose the death penalty mosty due to the economics behind it more than anything else. The government cannot immediately execute someone after trial, as they are often entitled to appeal such grave decisions should they believe that a fault, no matter how small, exists within how their case was handled. As such, people often end up imprisoned for incredibly long times before they are executed. Of course, the execution itself is also incredibly expensive.

It would seem logical to me that the death penalty would be banned even without having to resort to fundamental legal arguments.

Of course, the purpose of prison ought to be to reform people. However, with those accused and convicted of such heinous crimes, I'd be willing to settle for them being permanently behind bars with no possibility of parole and with all the amenities that lesser criminals would have access to to reform them for reentering society denied to these such criminals.
 
spud_meister said:
Confession's aren't reliable, I'm aware of that. But if a totality of evidence (video, eyewitness, confession, circumstantial, forensic) all confirm the person committed the crime, and there's no doubt of guilt, then their execution isn't a question of morality, but of practicality. And that's why I'd reserve the death penalty for the most heinous crimes, where the criminal has shown a blatant disregard for the humanity of their victims, where it would be immoral to allow them any chance of hurting more people (even if that is only fellow prisoners).

The justice system should be equal, but that's a fantasy. Justice outcomes are dependent on so many other factors, including how good the lawyers are, how the judge is feeling that day, which judge an individual gets, the race, or gender, or marital status of the criminal. You can only ensure the same rules are applied to everyone, the outcomes are up to a myriad of factors.
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Yes, and the fact that equal outcomes are a fantasy is exactly why I oppose the death penalty. That's the ultimate point.

The price is too great there.
 
TNHarley said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.
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5% of the worlds population, 25% of the worlds prisoners. Maybe we are doing something wrong on more then one level:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-germany-prisons-crime-and-punishment/
 
I'm all for the death penalty.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I’m against the death penalty. Does Cruz deserve to die? Sure. He deserves to be flayed alive and have fire ants eat him alive.

But there are things I don’t want my government in the business of doing.
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Skeptic Bob said:
He deserves to be flayed alive and have fire ants eat him alive.
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This is an emotional subject and I do not wish to dig into you too much - you're a good guy - but I would wager that one person's pain and fear at a live flaying would greatly outweigh even the pain and fear of seventeen children shot to death. Yes, even that. Even something that horrible, that evil, that unthinkable. Then again, it is a comparison of unthinkables that have nonetheless been realities.

To wish flaying upon a self-conscious creature, no mattet how evil the being it is inflicted upon....

...I cannot do this. But then, I'm human. If something comparable was done to a loved one, who knows what I would say and who knows what I might seek or wish to do.





Maybe it's time for a little babble from me (not aimed at you). Or maybe not. It will perhaps be just the one largely off-topic post here.

I used to think that if there was a deity, that if I was called to the mythical Abraham's task of arguing in favor of the preservation of humanity, I would simply summon Yo Yo Ma's performance of the unaccompanied Bach cello suites. (He's done several, but the first was full of fire and my favorite, even if he got even better in terms of technique). It is pure beauty, fire, ice. It is the perfect expression of humanity: for all our evil, we have created that. Just listen. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that we have created that is enough - that despite the evil we have done, we have brought that beauty into this universe of random interactions between matter, energy, gravity, etc. - that that is enough to keep us around.

Some decades later.... some decades later I might just remain seated and silent.




Here we are on this cold rock, hamsters in a wheel we built. If there is salvation, I'm not sure we deserve it. I think I side with fictional characters, like Tolkien's "Gandalf" and his "Aragorn" and BBC's "The Doctor" and who knows how many others: that we should be just when we wish to be cruel, magnamonious when the impluse is vindictiveness, saintly when tempted to evil. ]

Perhaps I would still play Yo Yo Ma's performance in the hope that some of us strive to be better. And maybe, just maybe, those who strive will win. Not in a year or a century, but eventually. One day.







/sees grandiose self out
 
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TNHarley said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.
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Philosophically speaking?
Well, you brought up Nikolas Cruz, the Broward shooter.
Philosophically speaking, I'd even volunteer to mix up the intravenous solution or throw the switch.

On a practical level, however, I cannot support it IN PRACTICE, and that's because I've watched too many people sent to die who either didn't really deserve it or for whom much more than a reasonable doubt existed about their guilt in the first place.

Our society, particularly our current judicial system, has demonstrated that it does not deserve the right to exercise the death penalty. So, as much as it would satisfy me on one level, I've seen way too many people die who didn't deserve to and I must withdraw support for the practice.
 
TNHarley said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.
Click to expand...

The Death Penalty is an emotional issue not a legal one. People get emotional and want revenge. The fact is that no where in the Constitution which gives government its powers, is the government given the power to kill its Citizens.
Given it does not really have that power, it should do what it was empowered to do to protect Citizens by life long imprisonment.
 
jdog said:
The Death Penalty is an emotional issue not a legal one. People get emotional and want revenge. The fact is that no where in the Constitution which gives government its powers, is the government given the power to kill its Citizens.
Given it does not really have that power, it should do what it was empowered to do to protect Citizens by life long imprisonment.
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Thats why i believe its a state issue.
 
TNHarley said:
Thats why i believe its a state issue.
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The State cannot usurp the power to kill Citizens legally either. The US system is supposed to be one in which the government is subservient to the Citizens.
 
TNHarley said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...-on-17-counts-of-murder/ar-BBJYtHi?li=BBnb7Kz
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was formally charged Wednesday with 17 counts of first-degree murder, which could mean a death sentence if he is convicted.

The indictment returned by a grand jury in Fort Lauderdale also charges the 19-year-old with 17 counts of attempted murder for the Valentine's Day massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland in which 17 people died and more than a dozen others were wounded.

Cruz's public defender has said he will plead guilty if prosecutors take the death penalty off the table, which would mean a life prison sentence. The Broward County state attorney has not announced a decision on the death penalty.
Personally, i wish the cops that found him put a bullet in his head so we wouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I am ok with the death penalty in some cases. This one being one of them.
Click to expand...
No plea deal, put him on trial, then take him out back and put a bullet in his head, that is what mad dogs deserve.
 
Old Trapper said:
They demand nothing. YOU demand revenge.
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Absolutely I do, and so do they. You don't speak for them. You weren't murdered. Victims have rights and those rights supersede the rights of the criminals who murder them.
 
I'm sort of in the same camp as Archie Bunker's wife Edith about capital punishment who once said 'I'm for it as long as it isn't too severe.'
 
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