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Thread: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    AustralianuS:

    I think that gun control regulations would reduce gun-deaths moderately in the USA but would not eliminate the problem, which is both multifaceted in its causes and endemic in America and American culture. I think a total gun-ban would greatly increase gun-deaths in America because it would likely trigger an armed revolt by many gun-owners and a political revolt by many Americans who, while not gun-owners themselves, distrust the power of the state and would want to protect the Second Amendment.

    America has what amounts to a secular-religion and its holiest of holies is the US Constitution and the ammendments to that document. Challenge any religious orthodoxy and you will face fanatical and violent backlashes from the zealous faithful who will gladly martyr themselves in defence of their holy writings.

    Alas, the emphasis on preserving rights is not matched by the necessity of maintaining responsibilities and the original US principle of commonwealth and shared burden has been replaced by a cult of the individual and lethal selfishness. These two changes have created a gun-culture in America which is as lethal as the guns sold by the millions each year. The NRA is now devoted to the service of both that gun-culture and those manufacturers of the millions of firearms and it now markets fear, suspicion and apprehended insurrection to create a climate where guns will sell to a population which is less inclined to hunt or to sport-shoot on a per capita basis. Fear and guns are a poisonous brew which America is now steeping in.

    The USA in the 1790's was a a sparsely populated, predominantly rural country with low population density and far fewer firearms than are present today. Distance and lower population density acted like buffers to reduce the frequency and severity of American on American gun-violence because distance ameliorated most social/anti-social tensions. (I am setting aside the horrific violence meted out to native populations by settlers and both paramilitary and military forces for the purposes of this argument). As population density increases and the number of guns increases the distance reduces, the pressure rises and buffers disappear and now the carnage will continue, accelerate in frequency and grow in severity, and thus the death tolls from year to year will rise. The poison brew is turning America and especially its densely populated cities into a hexenkessel (witches' cauldron) filled with blood.

    Cheers?
    Evilroddy.
    You know an odd thing? The highest murder rate in Canada, by far, is in rural areas. The high-density cities don't come lose to the murder rate- violent crime rate in the sparsely-settled back-country communities.
    Two different societies, I guess. Also, there's lots more guns-per-household in rural Canada than in the cities.
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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Wasn't there an idea of police being able to take guns considered racist a few years ago?

    I thought stop and frisk a racist failure.

    Plus, interesting how the Democratic debate team takes a trump phrase as gospel vs how every other thing he says is always BS and he doesn't know what he's talking about.

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    AustralianuS:

    I think that gun control regulations would reduce gun-deaths moderately in the USA but would not eliminate the problem, which is both multifaceted in its causes and endemic in America and American culture. I think a total gun-ban would greatly increase gun-deaths in America because it would likely trigger an armed revolt by many gun-owners and a political revolt by many Americans who, while not gun-owners themselves, distrust the power of the state and would want to protect the Second Amendment.

    America has what amounts to a secular-religion and its holiest of holies is the US Constitution and the ammendments to that document. Challenge any religious orthodoxy and you will face fanatical and violent backlashes from the zealous faithful who will gladly martyr themselves in defence of their holy writings.

    Alas, the emphasis on preserving rights is not matched by the necessity of maintaining responsibilities and the original US principle of commonwealth and shared burden has been replaced by a cult of the individual and lethal selfishness. These two changes have created a gun-culture in America which is as lethal as the guns sold by the millions each year. The NRA is now devoted to the service of both that gun-culture and those manufacturers of the millions of firearms and it now markets fear, suspicion and apprehended insurrection to create a climate where guns will sell to a population which is less inclined to hunt or to sport-shoot on a per capita basis. Fear and guns are a poisonous brew which America is now steeping in.

    The USA in the 1790's was a a sparsely populated, predominantly rural country with low population density and far fewer firearms than are present today. Distance and lower population density acted like buffers to reduce the frequency and severity of American on American gun-violence because distance ameliorated most social/anti-social tensions. (I am setting aside the horrific violence meted out to native populations by settlers and both paramilitary and military forces for the purposes of this argument). As population density increases and the number of guns increases the distance reduces, the pressure rises and buffers disappear and now the carnage will continue, accelerate in frequency and grow in severity, and thus the death tolls from year to year will rise. The poison brew is turning America and especially its densely populated cities into a hexenkessel (witches' cauldron) filled with blood.

    Cheers?
    Evilroddy.
    Honestly, I think America is just ****ed and things that work in every other country might not work here.

    all these other countries do NOT take in the worlds hobos. Most countries are way more homogeneous than the US.

    Borders language and culture matter.

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianuS View Post
    Honestly, I think America is just ****ed and things that work in every other country might not work here.

    all these other countries do NOT take in the worlds hobos. Most countries are way more homogeneous than the US.

    Borders language and culture matter.
    So does geography and law enforcement.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianuS View Post
    I think a good place to start would be to investigate where illegal handguns are coming from. Personally, I don't think the govt cares that there is a black market for guns or that so many people are killed by them. It almost never makes national news when 1-2 people are killed during a robbery, so it must not be a national problem. Although I'm willing to bet, the biggest piece of the pie of that 73% or murders is done in that or similar fashion.


    The lunatic shooting up schools is so limited in numbers, people are asking for the impossible to stop this. I said in another thread a made up % of how many people "we" are actually looking for, and in some of those already rare cases, if the nutso doesn't have previous experience breaking the law, not even a Psych is going to know what they are capable of.
    MSM needs to ensure these people are NOT famous. Don't show the face, don't share the name. Increase security and/or limit entry points to schools.

    And see something, say something. And parent your kid. Bullying sucks, it's not fun, but it's not so bad that schools need shot up. I'm willing to bet over time, most bullies regret their actions and most that were bullied are somewhat better off for it.


    "I'm willing to bet over time...most that were bullied are somewhat better off for it."

    Whatever prompted you to say that? How did you arrive at that conclusion? People who are bullied have an increased risk of depression, panic disorder, and behavioral, educational, and emotional problems, and suicide.

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    "I'm willing to bet over time...most that were bullied are somewhat better off for it."

    Whatever prompted you to say that? How did you arrive at that conclusion? People who are bullied have an increased risk of depression, panic disorder, and behavioral, educational, and emotional problems, and suicide.
    15 Famous and Successful People Who Were Bullied In School | Dr Michele Borba

    Here's a short list and 1st or 2nd after searching google.

    bullying can lead to some of those things but also lead to drive, motivation, determination. These are good things.

    As I actually posted in the same quote you pulled from, I'm not for bullying and it can definitely go too far.
    Sheltering kids isnt really the answer with how to deal with assholes. That's going to happen in their lifetime anyway. Teaching a kid to respect others is the important part.

    There is a fine line between the two but one teaches taking responsibility for your own actions, the other teaches that it's always someone else.

    For any bullying action, I seriously think karate is among the best responses. Teaches self discipline and a way to respond when bullying has gone too far. That bully will eventually realize thier problem.

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    You know how tired and threadbare that argument sounds?
    Listen. I'm not an advocate for gun control in the US, it's 'way too late for that. But can you imagine a scenario where someone is more likely to commit murder if they have a gun at hand? Do you think the gun being handy has been the deciding factor? What about people getting shot but not killed. Can you imagine that might not have happened if there was no gun handy?
    Your cause isn't helped with that stupid 'ban the cars too, then' analogy.
    So people commit murder because guns make it easy and convenient? Are you nuts? Murder is a desperate act, and it can and is committed in many different ways, guns are only one. Approximately half the murders are committed without firearms and if you ban firearms people will simply use a different method to achieve their goal. You can kill far more people with the chemicals under your sink than with an AK47.

    The issue is not firearms, it is why society wants to murder each other to begin with, but we dare not look behind that curtain do we?>

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdog View Post
    So people commit murder because guns make it easy and convenient? Are you nuts? Murder is a desperate act, and it can and is committed in many different ways, guns are only one. Approximately half the murders are committed without firearms and if you ban firearms people will simply use a different method to achieve their goal. You can kill far more people with the chemicals under your sink than with an AK47.

    The issue is not firearms, it is why society wants to murder each other to begin with, but we dare not look behind that curtain do we?>
    Don't be an ass. I said that sometimes people get shot because there's a gun handy. Didn't I? Go back and read it again. I said "Can you imagin a scenario..." Why do you people always want to reduce everything to an simplistic absurdity? See what happened here? You made a good point at the end of your post but you f*cked it up with that 'are you nuts' and 'if you ban firearms' crap when I never said anything of the sort. Read what I said, if you don't mind, and think about it before you reply.

    Yes, the issue is why do people in your society kill each other so easily. Where are the psycho killers coming from, for one thing. Those peope who accumulate weapons and ammunition intending to kill as many as they can. That's extremely screwed up. Why are there so many of them?
    And, as you said, why do so many seemingly ordinary people kill each other?
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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianuS View Post
    I think a good place to start would be to investigate where illegal handguns are coming from. Personally, I don't think the govt cares that there is a black market for guns or that so many people are killed by them. It almost never makes national news when 1-2 people are killed during a robbery, so it must not be a national problem. Although I'm willing to bet, the biggest piece of the pie of that 73% or murders is done in that or similar fashion.


    The lunatic shooting up schools is so limited in numbers, people are asking for the impossible to stop this. I said in another thread a made up % of how many people "we" are actually looking for, and in some of those already rare cases, if the nutso doesn't have previous experience breaking the law, not even a Psych is going to know what they are capable of.
    MSM needs to ensure these people are NOT famous. Don't show the face, don't share the name. Increase security and/or limit entry points to schools.

    And see something, say something. And parent your kid. Bullying sucks, it's not fun, but it's not so bad that schools need shot up. I'm willing to bet over time, most bullies regret their actions and most that were bullied are somewhat better off for it.
    People point out that the last time we banned the sale of AR-15's and other assault rifles that the mass shootings dropped by somewhere between 37 and 41% and rose since then by over 100%. The problem is that there are way too many AR-15's out there and if you want one I am sure even an 18 year old can get one for the right price. SO, banning them probably would not do any good at this time.

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    Re: Would Gun Control/Gun Ban Help Lower The Murder Rate In This Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianuS View Post
    15 Famous and Successful People Who Were Bullied In School | Dr Michele Borba

    Here's a short list and 1st or 2nd after searching google.

    bullying can lead to some of those things but also lead to drive, motivation, determination. These are good things.

    As I actually posted in the same quote you pulled from, I'm not for bullying and it can definitely go too far.
    Sheltering kids isnt really the answer with how to deal with assholes. That's going to happen in their lifetime anyway. Teaching a kid to respect others is the important part.

    There is a fine line between the two but one teaches taking responsibility for your own actions, the other teaches that it's always someone else.

    For any bullying action, I seriously think karate is among the best responses. Teaches self discipline and a way to respond when bullying has gone too far. That bully will eventually realize thier problem.


    What do you mean “sheltering kids”? What does that look like? When you say “Teaching a kid respect” do you mean teaching the “sheltered kid”, the bully, or both? They can both be steadily taught respect and still end up as is. The either/or of only two choices you give, as if there were no other, is a false dilemma. That “the other teaches that it's always someone else.” is just as much a falsehood as your nonsense claim "I'm willing to bet over time...most that were bullied are somewhat better off for it.", for which anecdotal evidence is insufficient support. The fact is, society more often makes the victim the “someone else” rather than the offending bully. The victim has to bear the burden and sort it out alone. That’s the way it’s been throughout history.

    That you say “I'm not for bullying” doesn’t change the fact of your being an apologist for the outcomes of bullying.

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