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Attacking the NRA Is Really Attacking Everyday Americans

The truth is, our national response to gun violence has been reciprocal to the amount we actually give a ****, which is little. NRA gun culture is like a religious cult more than a political one, it is full of what ifs. And, it can tolerate a lot of suffering in the name of a higher principle, derived of truth, myth and outright lies, in deliberate ignorance of the real bloodshed.

There is no solution here any more than there is a solution to Palestine. The participants are not rational thinkers.
 
yeah you can but its patently stupid. If you leftwing gun restrictionists were really about saving innocent lives, there are far more effective and less controversial ways of doing that. And you wouldn't spend so much time whining about the NRA and lawful gun owners.

You're right, TD, it is patently stupid to invent motivations for people just because you happen to disagree with the manner in which they want to achieve their goals. WHAT AN OBSERVATION. IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME OTHER APPLICATION FOR THIS.
 
My biggest problem with the NRA is the extreme political viewpoints they espouse. The GOA and other organizations are not that political.

An organization that prides themselves on gun safety sure talks a lot about a socialist Democrat agenda. IMO it takes away from their message.

I appreciate the fact they are not hiding and talking about this issue. I have thought about it and if an 18-year old is not allowed to own a gun, that is basically saying an 18-year old is not legally allowed to defend themselves. Should we raise the legal age of adulthood to 21?

The age where you legally considered an adult and not a child imo gives you the privilege of voting, drinking, owning a gun, etc... The right to defend oneself is paramount, although it should have some reasonable limitations.

What "extreme political viewpoints" are you talking about?
 
The founding terrorists knew exactly what they were doing just as every US administration since has also known. Nobody does propaganda better than the USA. Hitler and the Nazis took the style and pattern of USA propaganda and made it their own.

You are free to come to America and try it out.
 
You're right, TD, it is patently stupid to invent motivations for people just because you happen to disagree with the manner in which they want to achieve their goals. WHAT AN OBSERVATION. IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME OTHER APPLICATION FOR THIS.

if someone spends 95% of their posts whining about the NRA and pushing for laws that only restrict the rights of lawful gun owners and less than 5% of the time talking about criminals, I think its fair to assume that the goal of the poster is harassing honest gun owners
 
By "everyday" Americans, you mean idiots, right? That's what an "everyday" person in any culture is, an average shlub. If they choose to believe that the guns make us safer, it is clearly in contradiction to the facts but they are fed that tripe from "everyday" politicians with an agenda to serve their donors. That is the real issue, why should big money donors be allowed to profit from our national shame and misery?

The constitution has words with real meaning. Yet, that meaning is abandoned in favor of a carte blanche violence fantasy that makes every day idiots feel safe. Stop trying to help me understand you guys because it just depresses me.

In other words, you're saying that in a democracy, big brother knows best.
 
if someone spends 95% of their posts whining about the NRA and pushing for laws that only restrict the rights of lawful gun owners and less than 5% of the time talking about criminals, I think its fair to assume that the goal of the poster is harassing honest gun owners

Yep. I really just don't understand why the left wants criminals to run around loose and restrict the rights of the honest law abiding citizens. It really boggles my mind.
 
if someone spends 95% of their posts whining about the NRA and pushing for laws that only restrict the rights of lawful gun owners and less than 5% of the time talking about criminals, I think its fair to assume that the goal of the poster is harassing honest gun owners

Why should a weapon that is being used to commit such heinous crimes be part of society???
 
My biggest problem with the NRA is the extreme political viewpoints they espouse. The GOA and other organizations are not that political.

An organization that prides themselves on gun safety sure talks a lot about a socialist Democrat agenda. IMO it takes away from their message.

I appreciate the fact they are not hiding and talking about this issue. I have thought about it and if an 18-year old is not allowed to own a gun, that is basically saying an 18-year old is not legally allowed to defend themselves. Should we raise the legal age of adulthood to 21?

The age where you legally considered an adult and not a child imo gives you the privilege of voting, drinking, owning a gun, etc... The right to defend oneself is paramount, although it should have some reasonable limitations.

Defence does not serve as implication to a gun. There are very few societies within our modern world that believe that self-defence should include a gun, and they so happen to be countries that have a diminished firearm violence rate.

On your notion of "legal age of adulthood", the past mass shootings have been committed by middle aged if not older men (Las Vegas- Age 64, Orlando Pulse Nightclub- Age 29, Umpqua Community College shooting- Age 26) This is not a matter of legislative ages, if an individual is going to commit an offence....they are going to commit it. Is paramount over what....the deaths of 30,000 people per year due to firearm use.

The use of firearms as self defence is not universally practised.... why because stricter gun legislation and bans have been implemented in many countries. If you fail to see this correlation and many other you are missing the premise of my point.

I have highlighted that of 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behaviour. Thus if value this statistic over the deaths of 30,000 people in gun related instances, not including firearms injuries etc. you must reconsider the frameworks that you built you decisions off.

There are so many sources to disprove the firearm self-defence notions
Hemenway, David. Survey research and self-defense gun use: An explanation of extreme overestimates. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. 1997; 87:1430-1445.

Hemenway, David. The myth of millions of annual self-defense gun uses: A case study of survey overestimates of rare events. Chance (American Statistical Association). 1997; 10:6-10.

A Harvard study also found that many uses of self-defence pertaining to firearms were used in arguments or unrest, the link is below
Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention. 2000; 6:263-267.

The following paper below highlights how very few law abiding citizens are defending by shooting or injuring criminals
aMay, John P; Hemenway, David. Oen, Roger; Pitts, Khalid R. Medical Care Solicitation by Criminals with Gunshot Wound Injuries: A Survey of Washington DC Jail Detainees. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 48:130-132.

May, John P; Hemenway, David. Do Criminals Go to the Hospital When They are Shot? Injury Prevention. 2002; 8:236-238.
 
Here, I'll give you one: make any laws and increase any regulations that finally slow down the flow of guns and ammunition into the public.

That targets lawful gun owners. and does nothing to criminals.
 
Defence does not serve as implication to a gun. There are very few societies within our modern world that believe that self-defence should include a gun, and they so happen to be countries that have a diminished firearm violence rate.

.

Actually that's not true.. there are many countries that have more guns per capita.. but lower rates of violence.. and even firearms violence.. than countries that have much lower rates of ownership. Heck.. mexico has massive gun control. they have only ONE legal gun store.. and yet their are much more violent than the us.

The use of firearms as self defence is not universally practised.... why because stricter gun legislation and bans have been implemented in many countries. If you fail to see this correlation and many other you are missing the premise of my point.

Exactly. in these countries.. law abiding citizens have been needlessly disarmed.. giving criminals an advantage.

have highlighted that of 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behaviour. Thus if value this statistic over the deaths of 30,000 people in gun related instances, not including firearms injuries etc. you must reconsider the frameworks that you built you decisions off.

The CDC has found that multiple studies show that when people defend themselves with a firearm they are much less likely to suffer injury or they end up suffering less injury than those that try to defend themselves with other means.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
 
Why should a weapon that is being used to commit such heinous crimes be part of society???

Because law abiding people should be able to use them if they want to. We shouldn't be letting people run around loose who do commit such heinous crimes. In almost all of these cases, society knew ahead of time that these were bad people who shouldn't be running around lose but we let them run around loose anyway. That's not the fault of law abiding people.
 
Actually that's not true.. there are many countries that have more guns per capita.. but lower rates of violence.. and even firearms violence.. than countries that have much lower rates of ownership. Heck.. mexico has massive gun control. they have only ONE legal gun store.. and yet their are much more violent than the us.



Exactly. in these countries.. law abiding citizens have been needlessly disarmed.. giving criminals an advantage.



The CDC has found that multiple studies show that when people defend themselves with a firearm they are much less likely to suffer injury or they end up suffering less injury than those that try to defend themselves with other means.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent

Such as?? If you are stating more guns per capita than the US, there isn't such a country. The countries with higher guns per capita such as Serbia (58.21), Yemen (54.1) and France (31.2) all of which actually have quite high firearm related violence. If you are going to state such things, support it with facts. Additionally the problem is guns and thus guns should be more so correlated with gun crime not necessarily overall crime. There is a number of factors that could be addressed in relation to mental health, poverty and education however that is not the focal point, if it was I wouldn't be posting on a forum thread relating to firearms.

How have they been needlessly disarmed??? is it needless to disarm someone of something that is being used to kill?? This is not a strategic or tactical game, where criminals have any advantage rather they are actually primarily disadvantaged in a number of ways pertaining to health, education etc...Your view is one that is narrow minded, sweeping the gun problem under the carpet. Ignorance is bliss.

Point taken on one article you provided. However what about this notion of for every gun used in self-defense, six more are used to commit a crime. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...sed-to-commit-a-crime/?utm_term=.09e7b35ecf90

Do you not agree that there is a firearm problem in the USA presently?
 
Because law abiding people should be able to use them if they want to. We shouldn't be letting people run around loose who do commit such heinous crimes. In almost all of these cases, society knew ahead of time that these were bad people who shouldn't be running around lose but we let them run around loose anyway. That's not the fault of law abiding people.

Firstly. Essentially you are stating that law abiding citizens should be able to hold a weapon, with the primary purpose of being able to induce injury or kill because they want to. I pose this, just because you want to or are allowed to does not mean it is right or morally just. A weapon, an object that kills should have not place in the hands of the general public, rather it should be exclusive to legal and proper hunters and those that require it for their employment.

To your next point. The past five mass shootings were conducted by legal, and prior to, law abiding gun owners. Thus if you remove the means, you remove the risk and the reward.

This comes down to a moral battle. Isn't it morally right to give up the weapon that is inducing a epidemic on the US nation??

Quite simply self defence, through owning a firearm, is proven to be quite low shown through the 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behaviour. In 2010 there were 230 "justifiable homicides" in which a private citizen used a firearm to kill a felon, compared to 8,275 criminal gun homicides (or, 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide")
 
Knives, ropes, fertilizer/fuel, gasoline are all being used to commit heinous crimes...

Ban them as well?

You pose a good point. However rationality must prevail in these circumstances and thus does it does not seem rational to ban items that are essential to life.

A knife can have two purposes
a)induce injury or kill
b)(its most common purpose) to cut and slice objects

Fuel has two purposes
a)To run machinery whether that be a car, truck or tractor
b)Use in various bombs, lighting fires etc..

Ropes have two purpose:
a) Used in a variety of daily activities such as tying and in variety of products
b) Used in a variety of crimes and self inflicting harm

Gun have only one purpose:
a) to induce harm or kill


If you were to remove the first three society would not function and would not hold, because in many ways they are fundamental to our existence. Guns however, for average citizens, are not essential. This is demonstrated by countless countries throughout the world for decades, why is the US any different?
 
Yep. I really just don't understand why the left wants criminals to run around loose and restrict the rights of the honest law abiding citizens. It really boggles my mind.

Criminals don't prevent liberals from running government. NRA members and pro gun voters do. The key to liberals' wealth and power is government. Hence, their hatred
 
Why should a weapon that is being used to commit such heinous crimes be part of society???

why should alcohol that causes far more deaths?

because 99% of the firearms are used for good things-including killing or preventing criminals from harming others. Guns also help keep the creeping crud of collectivism at bay.

if you want to ban everything that causes "heinous deaths" firearms are down the list.

you apparently don't like the politics of gun owners and that is why guns are the first target of lefties who claim its to prevent "heinous crimes


I have a great idea-criminals cause heinous crimes-lets remove them from society
 
You pose a good point. However rationality must prevail in these circumstances and thus does it does not seem rational to ban items that are essential to life.

A knife can have two purposes
a)induce injury or kill
b)(its most common purpose) to cut and slice objects

Fuel has two purposes
a)To run machinery whether that be a car, truck or tractor
b)Use in various bombs, lighting fires etc..

Ropes have two purpose:
a) Used in a variety of daily activities such as tying and in variety of products
b) Used in a variety of crimes and self inflicting harm

Gun have only one purpose:
a) to induce harm or kill



If you were to remove the first three society would not function and would not hold, because in many ways they are fundamental to our existence. Guns however, for average citizens, are not essential. This is demonstrated by countless countries throughout the world for decades, why is the US any different?

you're lying. and we like our rights. we get tired of foreigners who want to remove our rights.
 
Firstly. Essentially you are stating that law abiding citizens should be able to hold a weapon, with the primary purpose of being able to induce injury or kill because they want to. I pose this, just because you want to or are allowed to does not mean it is right or morally just. A weapon, an object that kills should have not place in the hands of the general public, rather it should be exclusive to legal and proper hunters and those that require it for their employment.

To your next point. The past five mass shootings were conducted by legal, and prior to, law abiding gun owners. Thus if you remove the means, you remove the risk and the reward.

This comes down to a moral battle. Isn't it morally right to give up the weapon that is inducing a epidemic on the US nation??

Quite simply self defence, through owning a firearm, is proven to be quite low shown through the 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behaviour. In 2010 there were 230 "justifiable homicides" in which a private citizen used a firearm to kill a felon, compared to 8,275 criminal gun homicides (or, 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide")

There's nothing wrong with law abiding people owning assault weapons. That's why they call them law abiding people. Most mass shootings, including the Florida one, were conducted by people with long and obvious trails where they should have been locked up or confined beforehand. People aren't law abiding when they break laws, such as terroristic threatening. We've even had several recent arrests of people wanting to commit mass shootings in schools and these arrests happened BEFORE they committed the acts, which is what should have happened in Florida and most of the other mass shootings. We should leave law abiding gun owners alone and take dangerous people off the streets before they do something. It's absolutely nuts to let dangerous people run around loose and then try and keep guns out of their hands. That's bass ackwards.
 
why should alcohol that causes far more deaths?

because 99% of the firearms are used for good things-including killing or preventing criminals from harming others. Guns also help keep the creeping crud of collectivism at bay.

if you want to ban everything that causes "heinous deaths" firearms are down the list.

you apparently don't like the politics of gun owners and that is why guns are the first target of lefties who claim its to prevent "heinous crimes


I have a great idea-criminals cause heinous crimes-lets remove them from society

To your first point. What is the primary function of alcohol, last time I was advised it was not to induce harm or death. Thus on this notion that is correct around 88,000 per year, thus too this should be addressed. However I would be on an alcohol forum if I were focusing on those problems within society. The fact is individuals with guns are killing innocent children, teenagers, mothers, fathers, etc... why should the firearm continue to be part of society when its used with such intention. They do not belong in the hands of everyday citizens, as most countries throughout the world have seen common sense prevail and implemented strict legislation and banning.

Secondly. I don't doubt that they are used for 'good things', however that doesn't suddenly invalidate how they are being used and the deaths that are pertaining to firearm use. 100,000 people every year are either killed or injured because of a firearm over a 10 year period that is 1,000,000 people. How do those 'good things' suddenly outweigh these injuries and deaths. They are hardly used as a means of self defence shown through the 29,618,300 violent crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.79% of victims (235,700) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm, the least-employed protective behavior. In 2010 there were 230 "justifiable homicides" in which a private citizen used a firearm to kill a felon, compared to 8,275 criminal gun homicides (or, 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide"). Of the 84,495,500 property crimes committed between 2007 and 2011, 0.12% of victims (103,000) protected themselves with a threat of use or use of a firearm. So if guns were to be removed, suddenly the ruling elite would become superior, it hasn't happened in any other western country yet.

To your next point. Lets inspect this list....preventable deaths in USA
1. Smoking 420,000 (calls for better legislation on banning cigarettes and improved health programs to limit or stop these heinous deaths occurring)
2. Overweight 350,000 (also calls for better legislation, stricter implementation of health foods. One of the USA's biggest problems at the present)
3. Alcohol 88,000 (discussed previously, also these heinous deaths could be reduced or limited through stricter legislation)
4. Infectious Disease 70,000 (difficult to control particularly in the modern world, calls for more funding and research. However heinous deaths can still be reduced through this)
5. Toxins 60,000 (unsure as to what the nature of this implies however through stricter legislation and safety measures it could be reduced)
6. Motor Vehicle Collisions 54,000 (through stricter legislation and policies this could be reduced additionally education and experience lead this. Another point many of these deaths is 61% (32,000) of these deaths were due to alcohol or drug infected individuals, making the other 39% in human nature. It is in human nature to make mistakes, speed, misjudge or take a corner to fast. It is not however human nature to accidentally go on a killing rampage and shoot individuals.
7. Firearms 33,0000

All have the same connotations increased legislation....firearms are no different.

No I just have an issue with guns in the USA, not gun owners but their views.

Removal of criminals is an issue in itself. 1)Identifying a criminal is in some cases difficult because they will have already conducted the crime before being cause
2) Imprisoning is not the answer, rehabilitation is
 
you're lying. and we like our rights. we get tired of foreigners who want to remove our rights.

I am merely telling the truth.....you are lying to yourself. It is not just foreigners but also depending on reports between 40%-65% of your country as well.

So if you had to inform an individual who had no idea what a gun is, what a gun does and what its primary function is....what would you tell them???
 
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