Trump’s plan for teachers to pack guns is crazy, will only cause more violence, educators say

Rogue Valley · Feb 23, 2018

Trump’s plan for teachers to pack guns is crazy, will only cause more violence, educators say

Feb. 22, 2018

President Trump listens during a meeting with state and local officials to discuss school safety in the White House on Thursday

What could possibly go wrong? President Trump’s plan — parroting National Rifle Association talking points — to “harden” schools and arm teachers received a failing grade Thursday from parents, educators, school safety experts and public officials. While Trump and his cronies at the NRA believe instructors packing heat in classrooms would act as a deterrent, the move would likely lead to more violence and more tragedies, many said. “I think that the No. 1 most important part of the job is to educate children and not be a police force,” Rick White, a teacher at a private school in Manhattan, told the Daily News. “The more guns, the more likelihood of an accident, the more guns in any given situation, the more likelihood of tragedy.” “That’s kinda crazy. I think it’s just gonna create more violence,” said Abel Pantojas, 36, whose two teenage daughters attend public schools in the Bronx. Experts agreed, calling the idea of arming educators a travesty.

“Teachers should be marking papers, not being trained in marksmanship,” said Michael Mulgrew, president of the United Federation of Teachers. “We need to be preparing our lessons, not learning how to reload a gun.” Mo Canady, the executive director for National Association of School Resource officers, instead pushed to have a trained “certified law enforcement officer” at every school. “It’s one thing to be armed and prepared to defend yourself in the home,” he said. “It’s entirely different when you have to go on the offensive in a violent situation, where a person is actively shooting, killing people.” In a situation similar to last week’s rampage in Florida, a teacher who isn’t properly trained “could cost people their lives,” he said. The president of the 1.7 million-member American Federation of Teachers, Randi Weingarten, said a handgun would be no match for the assault-style weapons often wielded by school shooters. “The solution is to ban these military weapons from people who shouldn’t have them,” Weingarten said. Children as young as 14 were gunned down in the hallways of the Parkland school while teachers and coaches took bullets trying to protect their terrified students.

Although a gun owner myself, I agree. Trumps plan to train/arm 20%-30% of K-12 teachers means that approximately 1,000,000 teachers would have to volunteer for this program. That number is roughly equivalent to 80% of all current active military personnel. Do they also wear body armor? Use flash-bangs? I don't think arming 1,000,000 teachers is either a realistic or a satisfactory approach.

Related: Trump's awful plan to arm teachers is straight from the NRA playbook

Aristaeus · Feb 23, 2018

So what happens if a teacher cracks and goes on a shooting rampage with the gun they've been given?

Slyfox696 · Feb 23, 2018

Arming teachers is a dumb idea and it is nothing more than laziness speaking. There are many reasons why it's a horrible idea. I'll re-use something I said in a different thread:

It's stupid for multiple reasons.

1) If there is an active shooter, the police aren't going to just say "Hey, teachers are armed, lets get a coffee". They are still coming out to the school like a bat out of hell and they are looking for ANYONE who is armed. They are not going to know who the intruder is and they don't know who the teachers are. All they will see is someone stalking the school with a firearm. Disaster ensues.

2) A public area mass shooting is different than going to the gun range or spending 10 hours in a concealed carry class. It requires different training, it requires constant education and training and it requires experience in dealing with life or death situations. Most teachers are never going to have that. This leads to very bad decisions in the heat of the moment. We see officers and soldiers who make poor decisions in the heat of battle and they are regularly trained for those situations. Asking that of a teacher is dumb.

3) You've now introduced a deadly weapon into an environment where it wasn't previously. Let's say I'm carrying a firearm and I see two boys fighting. I go to break up the fight and now the situation which is fist fighting turns into a much more dangerous situation. I'm using one arm per kid to break up the fight, I don't have much I can do to protect my gun.

4) It introduces an increased element of fear in students. It completely changes the dynamic between staff and student and not in a positive way.

5) It requires a teacher to abandon his or her students at a time they need the teacher the most, all so the teacher can try to find their way to wherever the hot zone is, an endeavor which may or may not be successful.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but those are five pretty darn good reasons.

Praxas · Feb 23, 2018

Rogue Valley said:
Although a gun owner myself, I agree. Trumps plan to train/arm 20%-30% of K-12 teachers means that approximately 1,000,000 teachers would have to volunteer for this program. That number is roughly equivalent to 80% of all current active military personnel. Do they also wear body armor? Use flash-bangs? I don't think arming 1,000,000 teachers is either a realistic or a satisfactory approach.

Yeah that's a GREAT idea, let's arm teachers (who are highly frustrated with their pay and out of pocket expenses) and let them loose in the classrooms armed. :roll:

I am all for TRAINED armed security being present on school grounds but the simple fact is the job of a teacher should be to teach as their first priority. What happens when either a teacher goes berserk (I've seen teachers get upset and throw things before) or a student grabs their firearm or a teacher leaves a firearm unattended?

Lutherf · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
Arming teachers is a dumb idea and it is nothing more than laziness speaking. There are many reasons why it's a horrible idea. I'll re-use something I said in a different thread:

It's stupid for multiple reasons.

1) If there is an active shooter, the police aren't going to just say "Hey, teachers are armed, lets get a coffee". They are still coming out to the school like a bat out of hell and they are looking for ANYONE who is armed. They are not going to know who the intruder is and they don't know who the teachers are. All they will see is someone stalking the school with a firearm. Disaster ensues.

2) A public area mass shooting is different than going to the gun range or spending 10 hours in a concealed carry class. It requires different training, it requires constant education and training and it requires experience in dealing with life or death situations. Most teachers are never going to have that. This leads to very bad decisions in the heat of the moment. We see officers and soldiers who make poor decisions in the heat of battle and they are regularly trained for those situations. Asking that of a teacher is dumb.

3) You've now introduced a deadly weapon into an environment where it wasn't previously. Let's say I'm carrying a firearm and I see two boys fighting. I go to break up the fight and now the situation which is fist fighting turns into a much more dangerous situation. I'm using one arm per kid to break up the fight, I don't have much I can do to protect my gun.

4) It introduces an increased element of fear in students. It completely changes the dynamic between staff and student and not in a positive way.

5) It requires a teacher to abandon his or her students at a time they need the teacher the most, all so the teacher can try to find their way to wherever the hot zone is, an endeavor which may or may not be successful.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but those are five pretty darn good reasons.

Nobody is talking about turning teachers into a SWAT team. Allowing a teacher to be armed allows that teacher to address a threat in their classroom. If the shooter enters a classroom the armed teacher can respond appropriately.

Armed teachers should be required to have environment specific training. Everyone should. There should also be coordination between the PD and the school. A simple Bluetooth connection to the school PA so the cops can announce their presence would warn on site responders that a new element has been introduced and may even cause the shooter to stand down or self terminate.

It’s a worthwhile idea and opens up options we don’t currently have.

Lutherf · Feb 23, 2018

Aristaeus said:
So what happens if a teacher cracks and goes on a shooting rampage with the gun they've been given?

Have we had an incident yet where a teacher shot up the school? Why would this idea change that?

Slyfox696 · Feb 23, 2018

Lutherf said:
Nobody is talking about turning teachers into a SWAT team. Allowing a teacher to be armed allows that teacher to address a threat in their classroom. If the shooter enters a classroom the armed teacher can respond appropriately.

If a shooter enters a classroom, the teacher will be the first to die. This is known and accepted by teachers based on history. So now all you've done is give the shooter another potential weapon.

Armed teachers should be required to have environment specific training. Everyone should. There should also be coordination between the PD and the school. A simple Bluetooth connection to the school PA so the cops can announce their presence would warn on site responders that a new element has been introduced and may even cause the shooter to stand down or self terminate.

It’s a worthwhile idea and opens up options we don’t currently have.

It's a lazy idea for those who claim they care but don't want to pay more money or have any possible restrictions on getting a gun.

GDViking · Feb 23, 2018

1: teachers would have to be voluntary.

2 teachers should not be carrying, wall safes should be located in strategic locations containing not only proper weaponry but a blaze orange hat and bullet proof vest with big letters that say teacher on both.
3: they are trained if there is an active shooter only a few pursue the shooter. All others defend children I.defensible positions, classrooms, bathrooms, etc...

These are just some thoughts on how to make something like this work.

apdst · Feb 23, 2018

Aristaeus said:
So what happens if a teacher cracks and goes on a shooting rampage with the gun they've been given?

That teacher is going to show up with a gun and start shooting unarmed people.

Gaugingcatenate · Feb 23, 2018

Aristaeus said:
So what happens if a teacher cracks and goes on a shooting rampage with the gun they've been given?

Other gun toting teachers will be there to "stop" him. You do know that any teacher can crack at any time and if so there are no laws that would now stop a teacher intent on doing harm and deciding to bring a gun into work in a bookbag, briefcase, paper bag.

With other armed teachers the bad one could possibly be quickly stopped.Otherwise its just throwing staplers or bodies against the bullets, right?

Slyfox696 · Feb 23, 2018

GDViking said:
1: teachers would have to be voluntary.

I think this one should be obvious.

2 teachers should not be carrying, wall safes should be located in strategic locations containing not only proper weaponry but a blaze orange hat and bullet proof vest with big letters that say teacher on both.

Then what's the point?

We had a threat made this week (not credible as it turns out, thankfully) and the school went into lockdown. The police were here in about 1 minute and 15 seconds. If I'm in one part of the building, running to a safe in a strategically place location in a classroom (which has already locked its door because of the intruder), opening a safe, getting out the weapon and putting on all the equipment will take longer than 1 minute and 15 seconds.

So what have you accomplished?

3: they are trained if there is an active shooter only a few pursue the shooter. All others defend children I.defensible positions, classrooms, bathrooms, etc...

These are just some thoughts on how to make something like this work.

Understandable where you are coming from, but it is just not all that realistic for far too many schools. For example, if there is an active shooter, you don't want students moving locations. You want to either get them out of the school if they can safely escape or lock them down if you cannot escape. By the time you identify there's a shooter, identify where the shooter is and try to coordinate all these logistics, then it will be too late to matter.

Lutherf · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
If a shooter enters a classroom, the teacher will be the first to die. This is known and accepted by teachers based on history. So now all you've done is give the shooter another potential weapon.

It's a lazy idea for those who claim they care but don't want to pay more money or have any possible restrictions on getting a gun.

Why do you just assume that the teacher will get killed? Pretty much every one of these rampage shooters stops the assault once they are engaged, sometimes without a defensive shot being fired.

I fail to understand why so many people look at these scenarios, assume the worst case outcome, and then choose to oppose any and all options that might mitigate that type of outcome. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Just because there is a possibility of a bad outcome DOES NOT mean that the idea is invalid or dangerous. Hell, there's a possibility that I'll forget a pot on my stove and burn my house down. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to cook.

GDViking · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
I think this one should be obvious.
Then what's the point?

We had a threat made this week (not credible as it turns out, thankfully) and the school went into lockdown. The police were here in about 1 minute and 15 seconds. If I'm in one part of the building, running to a safe in a strategically place location in a classroom (which has already locked its door because of the intruder), opening a safe, getting out the weapon and putting on all the equipment will take longer than 1 minute and 15 seconds.

So what have you accomplished?

Understandable where you are coming from, but it is just not all that realistic for far too many schools. For example, if there is an active shooter, you don't want students moving locations. You want to either get them out of the school if they can safely escape or lock them down if you cannot escape. By the time you identify there's a shooter, identify where the shooter is and try to coordinate all these logistics, then it will be too late to matter.

Special alarm for active shooter for a start.

Being there is not engaging the shooter.
As I've always said ( living in the middle of nowhere) 911 is for when the shooting is over.

independentusa · Feb 23, 2018

Rogue Valley said:
Trump’s plan for teachers to pack guns is crazy, will only cause more violence, educators say

Although a gun owner myself, I agree. Trumps plan to train/arm 20%-30% of K-12 teachers means that approximately 1,000,000 teachers would have to volunteer for this program. That number is roughly equivalent to 80% of all current active military personnel. Do they also wear body armor? Use flash-bangs? I don't think arming 1,000,000 teachers is either a realistic or a satisfactory approach.

Related: Trump's awful plan to arm teachers is straight from the NRA playbook

What will happen is that the first people a shooter in a school will go after will be the teachers.

Slyfox696 · Feb 23, 2018

GDViking said:
Special alarm for active shooter for a start.

I'm fairly certain most schools have policies on how to alert the school of an active shooter.

But something akin to a fire alarm wouldn't work. You need to be able to give instructions over a PA system.

Being there is not engaging the shooter.
As I've always said ( living in the middle of nowhere) 911 is for when the shooting is over.

Most schools aren't in the middle of nowhere. A few, perhaps, but most are in a location with a nearby police department.

apdst · Feb 23, 2018

GDViking said:
1: teachers would have to be voluntary.

2 teachers should not be carrying, wall safes should be located in strategic locations containing not only proper weaponry but a blaze orange hat and bullet proof vest with big letters that say teacher on both.
3: they are trained if there is an active shooter only a few pursue the shooter. All others defend children I.defensible positions, classrooms, bathrooms, etc...

These are just some thoughts on how to make something like this work.

They should shelter in place and defend their position.

Fiddytree · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
Arming teachers is a dumb idea and it is nothing more than laziness speaking. There are many reasons why it's a horrible idea. I'll re-use something I said in a different thread:

It's stupid for multiple reasons.

1) If there is an active shooter, the police aren't going to just say "Hey, teachers are armed, lets get a coffee". They are still coming out to the school like a bat out of hell and they are looking for ANYONE who is armed. They are not going to know who the intruder is and they don't know who the teachers are. All they will see is someone stalking the school with a firearm. Disaster ensues.

2) A public area mass shooting is different than going to the gun range or spending 10 hours in a concealed carry class. It requires different training, it requires constant education and training and it requires experience in dealing with life or death situations. Most teachers are never going to have that. This leads to very bad decisions in the heat of the moment. We see officers and soldiers who make poor decisions in the heat of battle and they are regularly trained for those situations. Asking that of a teacher is dumb.

3) You've now introduced a deadly weapon into an environment where it wasn't previously. Let's say I'm carrying a firearm and I see two boys fighting. I go to break up the fight and now the situation which is fist fighting turns into a much more dangerous situation. I'm using one arm per kid to break up the fight, I don't have much I can do to protect my gun.

4) It introduces an increased element of fear in students. It completely changes the dynamic between staff and student and not in a positive way.

5) It requires a teacher to abandon his or her students at a time they need the teacher the most, all so the teacher can try to find their way to wherever the hot zone is, an endeavor which may or may not be successful.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but those are five pretty darn good reasons.

Perhaps the two most important dynamics you've listed, given how rare school shootings are.

GDViking · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
I'm fairly certain most schools have policies on how to alert the school of an active shooter.

But something akin to a fire alarm wouldn't work. You need to be able to give instructions over a PA system.

Most schools aren't in the middle of nowhere. A few, perhaps, but most are in a location with a nearby police department.

I have one near me that unless a sheriff or state trooper is In the area it would be be at least a ten minute response time. My daughter's would be more like twenty but my guess is that our volunteer first responders would show up armed.

Fiddytree · Feb 23, 2018

Slyfox696 said:
I'm fairly certain most schools have policies on how to alert the school of an active shooter.

They should, by now. Columbine was almost 19 years ago. It's been on their minds for at least that long.

trouble13 · Feb 23, 2018

I find it shocking that the left is opposed to something our potus is proposing /sarcasm.

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Fiddytree · Feb 23, 2018

Aristaeus said:
So what happens if a teacher cracks and goes on a shooting rampage with the gun they've been given?

I would be much more worried about individual encounters with students than anything else. Slyfox already discussed one scenario, something fairly common in middle and high schools: school fights between two or more students needing to be broken up by staff--or alternatively, an encounter completely initiated by the student and a student willingly confiscating the teacher's firearm.

I would discuss another. For students who are most likely to face disciplinary measures in schools, rightly or wrongly, there is a very distinct possibility (and I fear, quite probable) that tensions will be so high between student and teacher that the teacher is the one who shoots first. There's been many times with the youth I work with, this is this perception by staff that they are "dangerous" or "could be" dangerous. And, as another recent incident in Florida showed us, it may start with something as stupid as a kid playing with his food in the cafeteria. Things that staff can do to unnecessarily escalate a situation have already been met with enormous consequences for youth. And it's a very, very real problem. A lot of times this stuff happens because staff do not feel they are getting the training, the aides, the other supports necessary to deal with students who have emotional or behavioral health needs. Staff are human and get frustrated--sometimes to the detriment of everyone, including the student.

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Trump’s plan for teachers to pack guns is crazy, will only cause more violence, educators say

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

Aristaeus

Preferred 2nd person pronoun: thou

Slyfox696

Praxas

Lutherf

Lutherf

Slyfox696

GDViking

apdst

Gaugingcatenate

Slyfox696

Lutherf

GDViking

independentusa

Slyfox696

apdst

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist

GDViking

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist

trouble13

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist