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Why won't Manafort & Gates make a deal?

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haymarket

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Two weeks ago we heard lots of speculation that Manafort and Gates were considering deals with Robert Mueller. Manafort is 68 years old and the prospect of dying as a feeble old man in prison has to be sobering. The case in DC against him is said to be a documents case where no witnesses are needed and the documents prove him guilty beyond any doubt. Unless they get the evidence suppressed, it looks like a lock for the prosecutors. Gates is still young enough where he can start over. Do both want to throw away their lives to protect Donald Trump?

So why will neither play "lets make a deal" with Robert Mueller?

One explanation is the presidential pardon. Some suspect that - through back channels - Trump has promised both pardons knowing that if they do make a deal they could implicate him personally in the Russian collision and cover-up and that is the end for him. Yes, such a promise would be another count of obstruction of justice but Trump may have nothing to lose by committing yet another crime if he already has committed others and Mueller is hot on that trail and can prove them. However, it has been well established that Mueller will simply turn to state Attorney Generals and both could be prosecuted at that level and still end up in prison and Trump is powerless to pardon those crimes.

But now there is another explanation - both men fear for their lives having stolen tens of millions of dollars from Powerful Russian oligarchs to whom violence is not a stranger. Manafort could well feel that if he does turn on Trump, Putin could give his blessing to a hit on Manafort and all his problems will simply go away.

Of course, this afternoon we could find out Gates made his deal. But right now, this all is looking amazingly interesting and seems to be defying logic.

Alice spoke the words "curious and curiouser" in Lewis Carroll's fantasy about her adventures in Wonderland. And they seem to apply here in the political wonderland of the Russian Trump scandal as well.
 
When you lie down with dogs...........
 
Rexedgar said:
When you lie down with dogs...........
Click to expand...

It seem that the fleas are being shared back and forth among the Trump crowd and the itching and infestation is now painfully obvious. And Vet Mueller is standing there with a flea bath and powers and now the only question is will Manafort and Gates take the treatment?
 
haymarket said:
Two weeks ago we heard lots of speculation that Manafort and Gates were considering deals with Robert Mueller. Manafort is 68 years old and the prospect of dying as a feeble old man in prison has to be sobering. The case in DC against him is said to be a documents case where no witnesses are needed and the documents prove him guilty beyond any doubt. Unless they get the evidence suppressed, it looks like a lock for the prosecutors. Gates is still young enough where he can start over. Do both want to throw away their lives to protect Donald Trump?

So why will neither play "lets make a deal" with Robert Mueller?

One explanation is the presidential pardon. Some suspect that - through back channels - Trump has promised both pardons knowing that if they do make a deal they could implicate him personally in the Russian collision and cover-up and that is the end for him. Yes, such a promise would be another count of obstruction of justice but Trump may have nothing to lose by committing yet another crime if he already has committed others and Mueller is hot on that trail and can prove them. However, it has been well established that Mueller will simply turn to state Attorney Generals and both could be prosecuted at that level and still end up in prison and Trump is powerless to pardon those crimes.

But now there is another explanation - both men fear for their lives having stolen tens of millions of dollars from Powerful Russian oligarchs to whom violence is not a stranger. Manafort could well feel that if he does turn on Trump, Putin could give his blessing to a hit on Manafort and all his problems will simply go away.

Of course, this afternoon we could find out Gates made his deal. But right now, this all is looking amazingly interesting and seems to be defying logic.

Alice spoke the words "curious and curiouser" in Lewis Carroll's fantasy about her adventures in Wonderland. And they seem to apply here in the political wonderland of the Russian Trump scandal as well.
Click to expand...

There is an option which you left out. Probably an honest mistake. That would be that they have nothing that Mueller wants in a trade. So far nothing has leaked to bring us closer to the collusion charges that so many were ready to charge the president with a year ago.
 
washunut said:
There is an option which you left out. Probably an honest mistake. That would be that they have nothing that Mueller wants in a trade. So far nothing has leaked to bring us closer to the collusion charges that so many were ready to charge the president with a year ago.
Click to expand...

yes - that would be a factor as well. I suspect that since Manafort was the campaign manager and participated in key events like the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians - if there is a connection to the Donald himself, Manafort can supply it.

And I would respectfully suggest that collusion has already been proven - at least with the top campaign officials with those emails and the Trump Tower meeting. That is collusion.

It does not implicate the president himself - but now its only a step away.
 
Now we know that Mueller is working with the AG of New York. We know that there are at least two grand juries, one in DC and one in Virginia. Trump has the power to pardon Manafort and Gates of federal crimes but not state crimes.

If Manafort or Gates accepts a Trump pardon they will by law be admitting to guilt. Their admission of guilt should then make it a slam dunk to convict them at state level.
 
Once,one flips on Trump the whole bunch will turn on him to avoid jail!
 
haymarket said:
yes - that would be a factor as well. I suspect that since Manafort was the campaign manager and participated in key events like the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians - if there is a connection to the Donald himself, Manafort can supply it.

And I would respectfully suggest that collusion has already been proven - at least with the top campaign officials with those emails and the Trump Tower meeting. That is collusion.

It does not implicate the president himself - but now its only a step away.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree that the meeting in Trump Tower is proof of collusion, not saying it could not be.

On all of this my two cents is materially different though. I think that the criminalizing of politics is a dangerous road to go down. I have been consistent with that for both Clintons and now. Nixon was different in my view because he truly was a crook IMO.
 
haymarket said:
Two weeks ago we heard lots of speculation that Manafort and Gates were considering deals with Robert Mueller. Manafort is 68 years old and the prospect of dying as a feeble old man in prison has to be sobering. The case in DC against him is said to be a documents case where no witnesses are needed and the documents prove him guilty beyond any doubt. Unless they get the evidence suppressed, it looks like a lock for the prosecutors. Gates is still young enough where he can start over. Do both want to throw away their lives to protect Donald Trump?

So why will neither play "lets make a deal" with Robert Mueller?

One explanation is the presidential pardon. Some suspect that - through back channels - Trump has promised both pardons knowing that if they do make a deal they could implicate him personally in the Russian collision and cover-up and that is the end for him. Yes, such a promise would be another count of obstruction of justice but Trump may have nothing to lose by committing yet another crime if he already has committed others and Mueller is hot on that trail and can prove them. However, it has been well established that Mueller will simply turn to state Attorney Generals and both could be prosecuted at that level and still end up in prison and Trump is powerless to pardon those crimes.

But now there is another explanation - both men fear for their lives having stolen tens of millions of dollars from Powerful Russian oligarchs to whom violence is not a stranger. Manafort could well feel that if he does turn on Trump, Putin could give his blessing to a hit on Manafort and all his problems will simply go away.

Of course, this afternoon we could find out Gates made his deal. But right now, this all is looking amazingly interesting and seems to be defying logic.

Alice spoke the words "curious and curiouser" in Lewis Carroll's fantasy about her adventures in Wonderland. And they seem to apply here in the political wonderland of the Russian Trump scandal as well.
Click to expand...

Possibly Manafort and Gates don't believe they are guilty. Possibly there is insufficient evidence. Comey gave us a new legal standard. Intent. With the old argument blowing up, we must now move to the new argument. Fear for their lives.
 
jimbo said:
Possibly Manafort and Gates don't believe they are guilty. Possibly there is insufficient evidence. Comey gave us a new legal standard. Intent. With the old argument blowing up, we must now move to the new argument. Fear for their lives.
Click to expand...

Given the fact that a judge has ordered Mueller to hand over evidence that was withheld from another case (which is a huge ethical violation)
it could be that they are going to mount a defense that the entire investigation is corrupted.

t
 
haymarket said:
Two weeks ago we heard lots of speculation that Manafort and Gates were considering deals with Robert Mueller. Manafort is 68 years old and the prospect of dying as a feeble old man in prison has to be sobering. The case in DC against him is said to be a documents case where no witnesses are needed and the documents prove him guilty beyond any doubt. Unless they get the evidence suppressed, it looks like a lock for the prosecutors. Gates is still young enough where he can start over. Do both want to throw away their lives to protect Donald Trump?

So why will neither play "lets make a deal" with Robert Mueller?

One explanation is the presidential pardon. Some suspect that - through back channels - Trump has promised both pardons knowing that if they do make a deal they could implicate him personally in the Russian collision and cover-up and that is the end for him. Yes, such a promise would be another count of obstruction of justice but Trump may have nothing to lose by committing yet another crime if he already has committed others and Mueller is hot on that trail and can prove them. However, it has been well established that Mueller will simply turn to state Attorney Generals and both could be prosecuted at that level and still end up in prison and Trump is powerless to pardon those crimes.

But now there is another explanation - both men fear for their lives having stolen tens of millions of dollars from Powerful Russian oligarchs to whom violence is not a stranger. Manafort could well feel that if he does turn on Trump, Putin could give his blessing to a hit on Manafort and all his problems will simply go away.

Of course, this afternoon we could find out Gates made his deal. But right now, this all is looking amazingly interesting and seems to be defying logic.

Alice spoke the words "curious and curiouser" in Lewis Carroll's fantasy about her adventures in Wonderland. And they seem to apply here in the political wonderland of the Russian Trump scandal as well.
Click to expand...

I would not trust Trump if I was them. He could promise them pardons and then back off once they are found guilty. I think pardoning them might be enough to have him impeached and he would throw them both under the bus rather than be impeached.
 
ludin said:
Given the fact that a judge has ordered Mueller to hand over evidence that was withheld from another case (which is a huge ethical violation)
it could be that they are going to mount a defense that the entire investigation is corrupted.

t
Click to expand...

Actually I was listening on one of the talking head shows to a lawyer who worked as a prosecutor under this judge. Apparently this judge sends such an order out several times to the prosecutors to remind them to provide this evidence. It does not mean they have done anything wrong at all, just to remind them to do so.
 
Maybe they are less afraid of Mueller than they are afraid of the Russian mob?

It's my view that these guys are deep with the Russian mob for money. The mob won't lose any sleep if Manafort "accidentally" falls out of a window.

Perhaps they're negotiating to be in the witness protection program?
 
washunut said:
Not sure I agree that the meeting in Trump Tower is proof of collusion, not saying it could not be.

On all of this my two cents is materially different though. I think that the criminalizing of politics is a dangerous road to go down. I have been consistent with that for both Clintons and now. Nixon was different in my view because he truly was a crook IMO.
Click to expand...

Trump beat everybody to the punch when he did just that in the campaign promising to "lock her up" and have Clinton investigated.

In the end, Nixon will look like a saint compared to the crook that Trump is.
 
independentusa said:
I would not trust Trump if I was them. He could promise them pardons and then back off once they are found guilty. I think pardoning them might be enough to have him impeached and he would throw them both under the bus rather than be impeached.
Click to expand...

Moreover, many of Manafort's financial improprieties are under the jurisdiction of NYS, which Trump has no means to issue a pardon.
 
jimbo said:
Possibly Manafort and Gates don't believe they are guilty. Possibly there is insufficient evidence. Comey gave us a new legal standard. Intent. With the old argument blowing up, we must now move to the new argument. Fear for their lives.
Click to expand...

The case against Manafort is a documents case and I have heard at least a dozen legal experts on TV say it is as solid of a case as you could ever want on your side of the table in court.

And yes- the fear for their lives from a Russian hit - is indeed growing as a possibility.
 
independentusa said:
I would not trust Trump if I was them. He could promise them pardons and then back off once they are found guilty. I think pardoning them might be enough to have him impeached and he would throw them both under the bus rather than be impeached.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
independentusa said:
Actually I was listening on one of the talking head shows to a lawyer who worked as a prosecutor under this judge. Apparently this judge sends such an order out several times to the prosecutors to remind them to provide this evidence. It does not mean they have done anything wrong at all, just to remind them to do so.
Click to expand...

It opens ground for scrutiny of what the government is doing and how mueller is running his investigation.
 
Manafort is in far deeper than anyone. He understands that if he makes a deal he's dead. He was in Ukraine and saw Yushchenko get poisoned. He's more afraid of the Russians than Mueller.
 
ludin said:
It opens ground for scrutiny of what the government is doing and how mueller is running his investigation.
Click to expand...

That's as far as it goes, however. "opens ground for scrutiny" doesn't mean it will amount to anything. It's like saying "a question could be asked".

This judge has a web site where you can see the link for the Brady ruling and the fact that it is a standing order. This Hannity/Fox pushed conspiracy theory has no merit.

Here's Sullivan's STANDING order regarding the Brady ruling and exculpatory evidence from his web site.

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/sites/dcd/files/StandingBradyOrder_November2017.pdf

Here is the Sullivan web site - which has the link for a STANDING BRADY ORDER.

Judge Emmet G. Sullivan's Court Web Page | District of Columbia | United States District Court for the
 
haymarket said:
Two weeks ago we heard lots of speculation that Manafort and Gates were considering deals with Robert Mueller. Manafort is 68 years old and the prospect of dying as a feeble old man in prison has to be sobering. The case in DC against him is said to be a documents case where no witnesses are needed and the documents prove him guilty beyond any doubt. Unless they get the evidence suppressed, it looks like a lock for the prosecutors. Gates is still young enough where he can start over. Do both want to throw away their lives to protect Donald Trump?

So why will neither play "lets make a deal" with Robert Mueller?

One explanation is the presidential pardon. Some suspect that - through back channels - Trump has promised both pardons knowing that if they do make a deal they could implicate him personally in the Russian collision and cover-up and that is the end for him. Yes, such a promise would be another count of obstruction of justice but Trump may have nothing to lose by committing yet another crime if he already has committed others and Mueller is hot on that trail and can prove them. However, it has been well established that Mueller will simply turn to state Attorney Generals and both could be prosecuted at that level and still end up in prison and Trump is powerless to pardon those crimes.

But now there is another explanation - both men fear for their lives having stolen tens of millions of dollars from Powerful Russian oligarchs to whom violence is not a stranger. Manafort could well feel that if he does turn on Trump, Putin could give his blessing to a hit on Manafort and all his problems will simply go away.

Of course, this afternoon we could find out Gates made his deal. But right now, this all is looking amazingly interesting and seems to be defying logic.

Alice spoke the words "curious and curiouser" in Lewis Carroll's fantasy about her adventures in Wonderland. And they seem to apply here in the political wonderland of the Russian Trump scandal as well.
Click to expand...

Doesn't he actually need to be convicted first?

How could I as a juror put him in prison while Hillary is still riding her broom freely from campus to campus for Clinton bucks ?
 
SirGareth said:
Doesn't he actually need to be convicted first?

How could I as a juror put him in prison while Hillary is still riding her broom freely from campus to campus for Clinton bucks ?
Click to expand...

... uh... because they are two different people.
 
ludin said:
Given the fact that a judge has ordered Mueller to hand over evidence that was withheld from another case (which is a huge ethical violation)
it could be that they are going to mount a defense that the entire investigation is corrupted.

t
Click to expand...

Manafort has sued Mueller, claiming that he lacks the authority to charge him.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Manafort has sued Mueller, claiming that he lacks the authority to charge him.
Click to expand...

Not sure about that claim. It will be interesting to see how that turns out.
 
Two possible options to explain the stupidity of Manaforte lying to the FBI:

1. He is terrified of Putin and his "friends". There is no telling how much money Manaforte owes to people that will have no problem killing him.

2. He believes that whatever his fate, Trump will pardon him.
 
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