Democrats are now firmly behind single-payer. Thanks, Trump and Republicans - Wash Post today

Chomsky said:

Well I'm with you there, too.

You may see me beat on Trump pretty regularly, but his general idea of ending illegal and injurious legal immigration is the right one.

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I did not like Trump before he ran for office. I did not like his TV shows and I thought he was just a rich buffoon. Then when he started kicking the republican puppets backsides I started listening to what he had to say. He is a genius. But he is not a polished politician, politically correct, or a good speaker. He is a business man and used to pushing back when attacked as well as attacking first. He does not care whose toes he steps on. I think his biggest problem is he did not come up through the ranks of politics and is not a part of their corruption. This puts him at odds with the rest of our politicians who are used to trading favors in order to look good and get reelected. I think he truly wants to help the country. He did not become president to get rich and powerful. Like the Kennedy's he may have bought the election to appease his ego as well.

PIPEWRENCH said:

I did not like Trump before he ran for office. I did not like his TV shows and I thought he was just a rich buffoon. Then when he started kicking the republican puppets backsides I started listening to what he had to say. He is a genius. But he is not a polished politician, politically correct, or a good speaker. He is a business man and used to pushing back when attacked as well as attacking first. He does not care whose toes he steps on. I think his biggest problem is he did not come up through the ranks of politics and is not a part of their corruption. This puts him at odds with the rest of our politicians who are used to trading favors in order to look good and get reelected. I think he truly wants to help the country. He did not become president to get rich and powerful. Like the Kennedy's he may have bought the election to appease his ego as well.

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Quite honestly, I'm not sure he thought he would win. This may have been a PR move initially, that happened to catch-on beyond everyone's wildest imagination. That would explain a lot.

While I am shocked by the criminal behaviour all around him, there is the possibility that his outsider naivete allowed this to flourish. But there's also the possibility he was tacit or even participant. It remains to be seen.

I looked hard at Trump during the campaign, but he lost me from the Mexican Judge instance forward. He came across as too angry and spiteful, for my taste. I now have no regrets not joining his camp.

But the killer of all this, is: We really needed a revolutionary guy to come-in and upset the system, and put the American middle & working class first. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, Trump has some parts of the message, but is not the right messenger.

There is one other thing. It's been said, "We don't get to pick our revolutionaries". If I were in support of Trump's movement, I suppose I'd find solace in that when his negative behaviours manifest themselves.

PIPEWRENCH said:

I did not like Trump before he ran for office. I did not like his TV shows and I thought he was just a rich buffoon. Then when he started kicking the republican puppets backsides I started listening to what he had to say. He is a genius. But he is not a polished politician, politically correct, or a good speaker. He is a business man and used to pushing back when attacked as well as attacking first. He does not care whose toes he steps on. I think his biggest problem is he did not come up through the ranks of politics and is not a part of their corruption. This puts him at odds with the rest of our politicians who are used to trading favors in order to look good and get reelected. I think he truly wants to help the country. He did not become president to get rich and powerful. Like the Kennedy's he may have bought the election to appease his ego as well.

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If you think he's "at odds with those that are used to trading favors", I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Chomsky said:

Quite honestly, I'm not sure he thought he would win. This may have been a PR move initially, that happened to catch-on beyond everyone's wildest imagination. That would explain a lot.

While I am shocked by the criminal behaviour all around him, there is the possibility that his outsider naivete allowed this to flourish. But there's also the possibility he was tacit or even participant. It remains to be seen.

I looked hard at Trump during the campaign, but he lost me from the Mexican Judge instance forward. He came across as too angry and spiteful, for my taste. I now have no regrets not joining his camp.

But the killer of all this, is: We really needed a revolutionary guy to come-in and upset the system, and put the American middle & working class first. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, Trump has some parts of the message, but is not the right messenger.

There is one other thing. It's been said, "We don't get to pick our revolutionaries". If I were in support of Trump's movement, I suppose I'd find solace in that when his negative behaviours manifest themselves.

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I think the criminal element is around every one of our presidents. For the most part both parties even protect each other because neither party wins if they uncover all the corruption. However Trump is an outsider talking about draining the swamp. I don't care who he picked to work for him they would find dirt on them. JFK's father was in the mob and most of JFK's friends were certified mobsters. Look how the Bush's and the Clintons covered each others backsides in hundreds of scandals and corruption. The savings and loan debacle, insider trading, selling weapons to our enemies, as well as terrorist. When comes to rigging an election look at Iran hostage situation and how they railroaded Carter. They are splitting hairs trying to get something on trump while ignoring outright criminal behavior for decades.

Chomsky said:

Subsidies are a sliding scale. For a family of four, they greatly diminish over 60K, and end around 80K, if I recall correctly.

Deductibles are usually around 5K per person, 10K per family. Then there's the premium itself which is around $800 without subsidy. Plus there's the copays, many of which for procedures and tests are 50%.

Google around, and you'll find average out-of-pocket for insured families of four is around $25K. The very minimal subsidies for those making in excess or $50-55K is a few hundred a month at best. This leaves out-of-pocket of around $20K. So many just pay the $600 buck penalty, adding insult to injury, and then wing it.

If you still think my numbers are wrong, I'm happy to look at yours.

Here's something from 2015, describing the unsubsidized cost of insurance & health-care for a family of four:

Forbes: Annual Healthcare Cost For Family Of Four Now At $24,671

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Chom, this is real easy, you remember incorrectly. The premiums are subsidized to limit the annual cost to 9% of income. So I went to Healthcare.gov, claimed I had a life change event so I could look at prices. I looked at a family of 4 in Louisville Kentucky making 75000 a year. they are eligible for a 1070 a month subsidy. the cheapest silver plan was 596 a month after subsidy. The cheapest bronze plan for 169 a month after subsidy. That is not total BS.

And you also seem to be including the OOP max in your total. That comes into play if you have major issue(s). So using the cheapest silver plan, that is 7200 a year. If you want to pretend that someone in the family has cancer every year then you can say they are out 21,000 a year.
But if this family is hitting the OOP max every year then they will be grateful to Obamacare for getting rid of lifetime caps. So again I’m just not seeing the “total BS” you’re seeing. Again, I say “total BS” applies to the non stop lies from the right and their efforts to increase the costs to people buying insurance and their attempts to take it away with no replacement. But that’s me.