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Shooting Survivors’ Feelings Don’t Legitimize Their Ideas About Politics

trouble13 said:
Its because they are a bunch of phoneys. They are like jasper, the only answer they will accept is ban guns. It does not matter that mass killings will continue without guns. They want them gone.
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If you're going to call me a "phoney", have the courtesy to quote me suggesting that the only answer I will accept to to BAN guns. In fact I DO NOT support banning guns. Without details, I am not sure what additional "gun control" I might support. I've owned guns and shot them for my entire life, and do so today, have a closet full of guns of various sorts.

So if you're going to insult me, then quote me HONESTLY, instead of this BS straw man crap that I guess you guys turn to when you can't address the merits of an argument.
 
JasperL said:
No, I'm pointing out the problems with a very specific solution being discussed. If you want to tell me why my concerns aren't valid, we can have a discussion about it.
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You said it's a stupid idea. The only thing you have to offer is banning guns.

Obviously, banning guns is the only thing you're interested in; certainly not protecting schools.
 
JasperL said:
I'm assuming that there will be little to no restrictions on AR-style weapons, as the parts of my post you ignored makes clear.



And I said in response to you that "gun control" that would have that effect will not happen. I'm not sure why you're doing the straw man argument here. Besides, the alternatives are NOT:

1) Nothing
2) Seize ALL ur guns!!!!!@!

Give me a break.



And, again, I said in nearly every post it is of course POSSIBLE to make schools like prisons, and that will keep kids safer. As to "remove those weapons" see above for the response to this ridiculous straw man.

This is one long string of dishonest arguments. I'm surprised. I guess guns makes otherwise rational people become irrational in debate, which is my experience and why I said in the post that you mostly ignored is exactly why I ignore the gun forum.
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Didnt mean it that way. Just wasnt sure what point you were making besides...schools=prison-like=bad.

Which is true...but maybe one of the things we do have more control over.
 
Manc Skipper said:
They have to submit to all those restrictions on their freedom so you can still play with lethal toys unencumbered by regulation? Nice.
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Schools are full of restrictions.
 
yankintx said:
Wow that young man and his fellow students really have the Right rattled. I count 4 threads on this very topic. Sweat it out gun huggers, make an extra donation to the NRA. Protect the guns, not the kids, that is the message America is receiving loud and clear from the GOP.
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And with that, you've ignored the topic at hand.
 
Manc Skipper said:
They have to submit to all those restrictions on their freedom so you can still play with lethal toys unencumbered by regulation? Nice.
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Oh the horror of it

But

Your fine with allowing my wife and daughter being raped by an intruder because the Lil darling monsters don't wanna be inconvenienced when they are at school. Don't like that option I got another for you. Homeschooling them so they won't have to be involved

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
 
trouble13 said:
They is the children.
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Which children? All of them? And since when do children pass laws, vote, sit on school boards, etc.? Why do you care what "the children" think?

What's being asked of law a bidding citizens is that they surrender their access to guns so that the children can feel safe from being a victim of a mass shooter. I'm saying they could be kept safer in school if they were willing to give up some of their personal liberities.
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And I pointed out some problems with a specific idea of making our entrances function like a prison, to keep a determined shooter like the most recent one out of the school. If you'd like to address any of those concerns we can have a debate.

How about no backpacks allowed in school. That wouldn't cost anything.
How about all students enter through one entrance and are subject to random strip searches
Unisex school uniforms and uniformed haircuts
Eliminate activities that involve things like bats and sticks
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If you think those are PRACTICAL answers, then go down to your local school board meeting and put them in front of the board. I think they are stupid, and aren't going to happen, and if they did happen wouldn't do any good, but if you want to tell me how banning backpacks will prevent a mass shooter from coming in my niece's school and killing her, take your best shot.

How important is their safety to them? They are asking others to make sacrafice on their behalf. How much are they willing to sacrafice on their own behalf.
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It doesn't matter what "they" are asking. I'm pointing out the solutions proposed by people on here, DP, are stupid, and doomed to fail, not to mention impractical on a large scale, insanely expensive, etc. For some reason you want to avoid discussing the details of my actual argument, and so are resorting to straw men.
 
JasperL said:
If you're going to call me a "phoney", have the courtesy to quote me suggesting that the only answer I will accept to to BAN guns. In fact I DO NOT support banning guns. Without details, I am not sure what additional "gun control" I might support. I've owned guns and shot them for my entire life, and do so today, have a closet full of guns of various sorts.

So if you're going to insult me, then quote me HONESTLY, instead of this BS straw man crap that I guess you guys turn to when you can't address the merits of an argument.
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What merits? Not being snarky I'm asking you. I have not seen any argument from you. The only thing you have done is criticize my suggestions. That's what lead me to accusing you of being a phoney. If I was off base I appologize.

Please tell me what you are in favor of



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trouble13 said:
Bingo. He has blinders on and is focused on one singular goal. Ban guns! That is the only answer he will accept. He completely stopped resonating to me after I asked him if it was fair to ask the darling monsters who are demanding that we agree to sacrafice our personal freedoms, to sacrafice some of their own freedoms in the name of their safety.
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Except you're lying about my focus.... Other than that, fabricating positions and dishonestly attributing them to me, it's a good comment when you can't address the merits of my ACTUAL argument!
 
apdst said:
You said it's a stupid idea. The only thing you have to offer is banning guns.

Obviously, banning guns is the only thing you're interested in; certainly not protecting schools.
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Except I haven't "offered" or suggested or supported banning guns.
 
apdst said:
You said it's a stupid idea. The only thing you have to offer is banning guns.

Obviously, banning guns is the only thing you're interested in; certainly not protecting schools.
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Intelligent people can comprehend a solution that involves several things not mutually exclusive of one another.
 
JasperL said:
Except you're lying about my focus.... Other than that, fabricating positions and dishonestly attributing them to me, it's a good comment when you can't address the merits of my ACTUAL argument!
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If you argument is a gun ban then that will only end in civil war. It isn't going to happen and if it did there would be more dead innocents than any gun ban might have saved.
 
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haymarket said:
Intelligent people can comprehend a solution that involves several things not mutually exclusive of one another.
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That must explain why you only want to ban guns?
 
JasperL said:
Explain "common sense security" measures for us. You've posted an ad for a bullet proof door, but no one claims that it's not possible or even difficult to install bullet proof doors. Buy door, remove old one, install new one. Simple.

The problem is in a school with 1,000 or more students the logistics of controlling all those students and all the staff etc. who come and go all day long is difficult. That bullet proof door will open and a hundred times PER DAY. And that can happen at multiple entrances. And a bullet proof, or bomb proof, door is useless when it opens as it must in a school with hundreds or thousands of people coming and going all the time.
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If that's your only problem, it's not a problem. It's already done at many large urban schools.

Fingerprint recognition, facial recognition, palmprint recognition......these can be used to speed access.

You don't need "multiple" entrances. Two will suffice.

You don't get inside the bulletproof entry until you're fully cleared.

That was easy.
 
trouble13 said:
What merits? Not being snarky I'm asking you. I have not seen any argument from you. The only thing you have done is criticize my suggestions. That's what lead me to accusing you of being a phoney. If I was off base I appologize.

Please tell me what you are in favor of
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For the record, you quoted me, ignored what I said, then fabricated positions I don't hold. But I'll answer again...

I'm not really in favor of anything. We can't secure schools from people like this, and we're not going to ban guns, so other than doing a better job of mental health treatment or something, there's no "big" things that can be done. And I find the suggestions about turning schools into mini prisons a little bit insulting to be honest. If they were to be effective, the costs would be enormous, and for really nothing because even if we can plan around the fact that security when thousands of KIDS come and go from multiple buildings on an average HS campus, even if they did work perfectly, which is hilariously unrealistic, that protects kids IN THE BUILDING, but leaves them completely vulnerable coming, and going etc. And we've had mass shooting in movie theaters, so we have to harden those like little prisons. And restaurants, and sporting events which they have done to a degree but not particularly well for HS games - there's a couple cops hanging around, but football stadiums are OUTSIDE, so have lots of places in and out in my area. Etc.

Bottom line is the 'cost' of having AR-style guns freely available to anyone not formally adjudicated as insane is they can get them and kill a bunch of people before getting killed or otherwise stopped, and nothing we can do will change it, so let's not pretend that obscenely expensive security THEATER is a legitimate response.
 
JasperL said:
Except you're lying about my focus.... Other than that, fabricating positions and dishonestly attributing them to me, it's a good comment when you can't address the merits of my ACTUAL argument!
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I think we all know who the real phonies are in this discussion, a discussion that WILL lead to a real solution.
These people are part of the problem, and their blaming of everything but guns will soon pass into history.
This is the same type of 'wind of change' we saw with the Berlin Wall coming down.
The gun wall is now coming down.

Now that the NRA is out with its talking points of allowing the mentally ill to continue to legally buy assault weapons;
That 18 year-olds or anyone else should have legal unfettered access to their AR 15s;
Hey, America already knew who their real enemy was in this discussion.

A year ago this month, the GOP led by trump, passed a bill making it easier for the mentally to get assault weapons.
They refuse to allow mentally ill information into the background check system.

The trump admin won't allow photos out showing him signing the bill to make it easier for the mentally
ill to legally buy these WMDs, weapons of massacre and death. These people are beyond salvation.
The GOP and trump admin have CUT funding for school safety; they've CUT funding for the mentally ill.

We really do have the makings of the next 'Great Generation'.
They are now the Leaders and Conscience of this Nation, a Nation without Leaders.
The fact that I still get to be with these HS students in retirement is awe-inspiring for me.
And let me just say how resilient our students are right now, giving educators the strength they need going forward.
This while our teachers discuss taking a bullet for our students; they are really quite irreconcilable right now.

We need a Nationwide sweep of every one of our half billion or so guns in the USA.
Nowhere else in the World is there this problem.
Only legal gun owners who are mentally stable will get to keep their guns.
Every illegal gun should be given to the Military.
I already have a plan for this.

Democratic boogiemen who ignite the right need to shut the **** up and let our grieving students and parents carry this message forward.
Let the fright-wingers continue to attack our students. This is the end for them and they know it.
This is a new beginning for our next generation and everyone knows that ...
 
Vox said:
If that's your only problem, it's not a problem. It's already done at many large urban schools.
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Great, now you just need them at the other 39,000 schools, 95,000 buildings and you're done!

Fingerprint recognition, facial recognition, palmprint recognition......these can be used to speed access.
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HELL YEAH!! Schools like we secure NSA sites and nuclear facilities!!

You don't need "multiple" entrances. Two will suffice.

You don't get inside the bulletproof entry until you're fully cleared.

That was easy.
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Goodness, if you just disregard all the enormous practical difficulties of money and retrofitting 10s of thousands of buildings like prisons or top secret or nuclear weapons sites, it's easy!

:2rofll:
 
JasperL said:
For the record, you quoted me, ignored what I said, then fabricated positions I don't hold. But I'll answer again...

I'm not really in favor of anything. We can't secure schools from people like this, and we're not going to ban guns, so other than doing a better job of mental health treatment or something, there's no "big" things that can be done. And I find the suggestions about turning schools into mini prisons a little bit insulting to be honest. If they were to be effective, the costs would be enormous, and for really nothing because even if we can plan around the fact that security when thousands of KIDS come and go from multiple buildings on an average HS campus, even if they did work perfectly, which is hilariously unrealistic, that protects kids IN THE BUILDING, but leaves them completely vulnerable coming, and going etc. And we've had mass shooting in movie theaters, so we have to harden those like little prisons. And restaurants, and sporting events which they have done to a degree but not particularly well for HS games - there's a couple cops hanging around, but football stadiums are OUTSIDE, so have lots of places in and out in my area. Etc.

Bottom line is the 'cost' of having AR-style guns freely available to anyone not formally adjudicated as insane is they can get them and kill a bunch of people before getting killed or otherwise stopped, and nothing we can do will change it, so let's not pretend that obscenely expensive security THEATER is a legitimate response.
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At some point the benefits do outweigh the costs. Israel has armed guards in every school. The Israeli ministry of Education funds shelters, fences, reinforces school buses, and hires and trains guards.
 
WCH said:
That would be due to your ideology.

Those kids in FL. went on and on today about how the deaths of their *innocent classmates meant they would never grow up to be significant members of society, their voices hushed.
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I guess...just doesn't make a lot of sense scientifically. I respect your belief...I just can't get on the same page.

What were we talking about? :)
 
NIMBY said:
I think we all know who the real phonies are in this discussion, a discussion that WILL lead to a real solution.
These people are part of the problem, and their blaming of everything but guns will soon pass into history.
This is the same type of 'wind of change' we saw with the Berlin Wall coming down.
The gun wall is now coming down.

Now that the NRA is out with its talking points of allowing the mentally ill to continue to legally buy assault weapons;
That 18 year-olds or anyone else should have legal unfettered access to their AR 15s;
Hey, America already knew who their real enemy was in this discussion.
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I'm sorry but you are going to be disappointed.

2015 Pew survey: Do you support an assault weapons ban?

18-29 year olds: 49%

30-49 year olds: 55%

50-64: 61%

65 and older: 63%

18 to 29 year olds lead the country in support for concealed carry according to 2015 Gallup poll at 66% which is a full 10 points higher than any other demographic.

Why shouldn't an 18 year old be able to buy an AR 15? At 18 you can be drafted to go through the hellfire of war but when you come home you won't be able to buy a semi-automatic? That makes no sense.

Young people like guns more than any other age group and the days of gun control debates are coming to an end. Most gun control proponents are old, washed up moral busy bodies.
 
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JasperL said:
For the record, you quoted me, ignored what I said, then fabricated positions I don't hold. But I'll answer again...

I'm not really in favor of anything. We can't secure schools from people like this, and we're not going to ban guns, so other than doing a better job of mental health treatment or something, there's no "big" things that can be done. And I find the suggestions about turning schools into mini prisons a little bit insulting to be honest. If they were to be effective, the costs would be enormous, and for really nothing because even if we can plan around the fact that security when thousands of KIDS come and go from multiple buildings on an average HS campus, even if they did work perfectly, which is hilariously unrealistic, that protects kids IN THE BUILDING, but leaves them completely vulnerable coming, and going etc. And we've had mass shooting in movie theaters, so we have to harden those like little prisons. And restaurants, and sporting events which they have done to a degree but not particularly well for HS games - there's a couple cops hanging around, but football stadiums are OUTSIDE, so have lots of places in and out in my area. Etc.

Bottom line is the 'cost' of having AR-style guns freely available to anyone not formally adjudicated as insane is they can get them and kill a bunch of people before getting killed or otherwise stopped, and nothing we can do will change it, so let's not pretend that obscenely expensive security THEATER is a legitimate response.
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And I would like to point again that you offer nothing in terms of a solution. If I'm understanding you correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong, your position seems to be that problem is unfixable.

If that's your conclusion are you you suggesting we should just accept mass shootings as a reality just like we accept hurricanes kill people

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JasperL said:
Of course it's possible. Jails and prisons manage it just fine. Our local courthouse has two (I assume) armed guards on duty at all times, and a metal detector, but to be honest, you can walk right in to the open area, two shots kills or puts the guards out of action, and then you walk through the metal detector, or hop over the waste high "barrier" on either side. So for purposes of preventing a mass shooting, it's fake security even at the local courthouse if the person is nuts and doesn't mind getting caught or killed, which these nut jobs do not.

So now you need prison type security where if you take out the guy checking ID, you're locked in a closed room, and someone on the other side has to affirmatively buzz you in to gain entry. All the while you got 1,000 kids needing in and out every day, along with parents, teachers, guests, etc.

It takes 10 seconds or less of serious thought to reveal this as stupid as hell, impractical, and functionally impossible to implement on a wide scale at something like 40,000 schools.
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Not impossible and not even difficult......in reality, quite practical when compared with dead children.

Already done at many large urban schools with thousands of students and often with metal detectors added.

This IS the 21st century and we don't have look at ID cards, we can scan them and have a backup of fingerprint or facial recognition programs if needed.

Two tiered entry (if needed) with the second tier hardened against gunshots or bombs is not a problem, just a practical way to ensure safety.

So far, nothing has been mentioned that makes school seem like a prison........just measures that will make it safe for children.
 
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