“We call BS”, says Florida shooting student survivor to Trump and GOP

goldkam said:

Why does it matter if the worst US school massacre in history was in 1927 with a bomb. That does not change the fact that the guns laws and control is a problem in the US. The heart of the problem with these school shootings lies with:
1. Gun Legislation
2. Mental Illness
3. Education

They need to be addressed in that order. So you propose that we just 'cure' the 46 million people in the US of mental illness and it will all be fine shootings will disappear, gun related violence will disappear. You refer to common sense, something that seems to be not that common in the US. You have to ask yourself the question, what is the medium in which these acts are being carried out. A gun. You remove that medium you reduce the risk and temptation to conduct such heinous acts. I will alway put it back to this safety and precaution over rights and privilege. A gun is a privilege which continues to be abused, it is not an essential part of life and is not required for survival (for most). If you disagree with this notion, it proves my point exactly.

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It matters, because banning gun ownership isn't going to make a difference.

ataraxia said:

If you listen to the talk, she explains.

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She lied two times, as well.

apdst said:

No one is saying "do nothing". What we're saying, is the "something" you demand we do 1) isn't going to happen and 2) wouldn't do any good, if it did happen.

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We call BS. It has worked everywhere it has been tried. Namely, the entire rest of the planet. Doesn’t it seem strangely coincidental to you that the only country with the most lax gun laws also has the most number of massacres?

You people don't scream to ban alcohol when someone gets killed by a drunk driver.

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We don’t call laws against drunk driving infringements on our freedom, and people dying from drunk driving accidents a necessary price to pay for continuing to have a freedoms.

Mason66 said:

I am definitely not in the mood for a rant.

Can you summerize why this lady thinks this has anything even remotely to do with Trump?

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Nope. If you cannot get yourself to listen to a short talk, it is clear you will not be interested in anything I summarize. Your mind is closed. Enjoy.

ataraxia said:

We call BS. It has worked everywhere it has been tried. Namely, the entire rest of the planet. Doesn’t it seem strangely coincidental to you that the only country with the most lax gun laws also has the most number of massacres?



We don’t call laws against drunk driving infringements on our freedom, and people dying from drunk driving accidents a necessary price to pay for continuing to have a freedoms.

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Is there a right to drink and drive I wasn't aware of?

ataraxia said:

Wow! This young student is so passionate, so clear, so articulate, so eloquent, it is hard to believe she is only a high school student. She perfectly sums up the frustration with such corrupt, selfish nonsense that is passing for government these days. Bravo!

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That was powerful

apdst said:

It matters, because banning gun ownership isn't going to make a difference.

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I may rephrase what I stated. "Reducing gun ownership". Australia proved this to be successful after John Howard and the Howard Government removed over 1 million illegal guns in the mid 1990's and implemented stringent gun legislation. Since then there has been no mass shooting, a reduction in youth suicides and a reduction in homicide rates. So to state it won't have a different is being quite negative. I bring it back to the point of safety and precaution over right and privilege.

ataraxia said:

We call BS. It has worked everywhere it has been tried. Namely, the entire rest of the planet. Doesn’t it seem strangely coincidental to you that the only country with the most lax gun laws also has the most number of massacres?



We don’t call laws against drunk driving infringements on our freedom, and people dying from drunk driving accidents a necessary price to pay for continuing to have a freedoms.

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It doesn't work in Mexico. Australia's violent crime rate increased. England has the third highest crime rate in the world. The worst genocides in history occured in Germany, Poland, Austria, France, Russia, China, Turkey, Cambodia and Laos.

If that's what you call "working", then I pass.

Switzerland has pretty much the same gun laws as The United States. These attacks don't happen there, so guns aren't the problem. You folks post cherry picked facts and sometimes outright lie. You'll never get anywhere if you continue to do so.

We aren't free to purchase, possess and consume alcohol? That's news to me.

goldkam said:

I may rephrase what I stated. "Reducing gun ownership". Australia proved this to be successful after John Howard and the Howard Government removed over 1 million illegal guns in the mid 1990's and implemented stringent gun legislation. Since then there has been no mass shooting, a reduction in youth suicides and a reduction in homicide rates. So to state it won't have a different is being quite negative. I bring it back to the point of safety and precaution over right and privilege.

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Australia's crime rate increased when it happened.

Firearms are a layer of defense for my family. Are you saying I have to decrease my family's safety, just to make you people feel better? **** my family?

apdst said:

Australia's crime rate increased when it happened.

Firearms are a layer of defense for my family. Are you saying I have to decrease my family's safety, just to make you people feel better? **** my family?

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The first point "Australia's crime rate has increased" is actually incorrect. Overall they have continued to decline. I have attached an image just to prove my point and highlight the inadequacy of your knowledge and research.

To your second point I respect your opinion and point of view however I pose this. If you removed that 'layer of defence' what difference would if make. A gun is a privilege and is not a right, Americans have been conditioned to believe that guns are a normality in every day life. It would make people not just feel better it would MAKE a difference. If you deny this you are denying facts, Australia is a living example.

goldkam said:

The first point "Australia's crime rate has increased" is actually incorrect. Overall they have continued to decline. I have attached an image just to prove my point and highlight the inadequacy of your knowledge and research.

To your second point I respect your opinion and point of view however I pose this. If you removed that 'layer of defence' what difference would if make. A gun is a privilege and is not a right, Americans have been conditioned to believe that guns are a normality in every day life. It would make people not just feel better it would MAKE a difference. If you deny this you are denying facts, Australia is a living example.


View attachment 67228775View attachment 67228775

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The rape rate in Australia increased. Are you saying my wife and daughters should be defenseless against a rapist? Just lay there, it'll be over soon?

4510.0 - Recorded Crime - Victims, Australia, 2016

apdst said:

The rape rate in Australia increased. Are you saying my wife and daughters should be defenseless against a rapist? Just lay there, it'll be over soon?

4510.0 - Recorded Crime - Victims, Australia, 2016

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If you read what I stated correctly, I said "overall" Australia's crime rates have declined. Of course all of them haven't, it would be a statistical anomaly if they had. From this you are drawing away from the focus of my point and in fact the whole point of this particular issue. The focus I brought on Australia's statistics is the reduction of gun related crime, not all crime. In Australia they are not defenceless as you seem to be implying, there is different mediums that are still available. To further my point the last comment is quite immature and overstepping the line. Essentially you are saying if I don't have a gun I cannot defend myself at all, once again my point is Americans seem to be conditioned that guns are the only point of defence. There is such objects as tazers, capsicum spray, baseball bats etc. which may still be used. If for the greater good you have to revert to a lesser weapons well that may just be how it has to be. Australia, Japan, UK have been successfully living this notion out.

ataraxia said:

Wow! This young student is so passionate, so clear, so articulate, so eloquent, it is hard to believe she is only a high school student. She perfectly sums up the frustration with such corrupt, selfish nonsense that is passing for government these days. Bravo!

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Point by point:

It is harder to make plans with friends than it is to buy a gun.

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That, right there is not true. I can send a text in a matter of seconds and get a response almost instantly. There are 651 regulations at the federal level alone. Not to mention that each state has their own rules and regulations to follow. There are minimum waiting periods for all gun sales (except person to person) and there are mandatory background checks.

All I hear is your right to own a gun outweighs a student's right to live.

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No. If that were true, then there would be no laws against murder. But there are. We all have rights and those rights have limits. Gun ownership is a right and it has limits. It is horrific that some people will exceed those limits for their own sick purpose, but that does not reflect on the millions of gun owners that behave responsibly. Her attempt to equate legal, responsible gun ownership to mass murder is yet another logical fallacy.

Australia hasn't had a mass shooting since 1999

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This is a tricky one. I'm not going to post links to the multitude of studies out there, but there is a link between population density and crime. While Australia has a murder rate of 0.4 per 100,000, North Dakota has a crime rate of 0.02 per 100,000 and has not had a "mass shooting" since 2003. Yet they have a similar population density. The one mass shooting was a meth head in a trailer park that killed 3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia#Murder
3218.0 - Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2016
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nd/crime
North Dakota spared a mass shooting in recent years, but not historically | Grand Forks Herald

Despite the fact that ND lives in barbaric US with its atrocious gun laws and evil NRA, it had a lower murder rate than the angelic Australia.

Japan has never had a mass shooting

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In 2016 there were 19 killed and 26 injured in a stabbing. When will people realize that the tool is not the problem?

How much did the NRA give to [Donald Trump]?

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$11.4 million, about 1% of his total contributions.

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/nra-contributions-politicians-senators/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/campaign-finance/

Trump repealed Obama era gun laws that would have made it harder for people with mental illness to buy guns

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That isn't true. The rule that was rescinded never went into effect and would have only changed the way information was shared. Had the rule been in place it likely would not have changed the outcome of this shooting.

https://www.snopes.com/trump-sign-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-illnesses/

goldkam said:

If you read what I stated correctly, I said "overall" Australia's crime rates have declined. Of course all of them haven't, it would be a statistical anomaly if they had. From this you are drawing away from the focus of my point and in fact the whole point of this particular issue. The focus I brought on Australia's statistics is the reduction of gun related crime, not all crime. In Australia they are not defenceless as you seem to be implying, there is different mediums that are still available. To further my point the last comment is quite immature and overstepping the line. Essentially you are saying if I don't have a gun I cannot defend myself at all, once again my point is Americans seem to be conditioned that guns are the only point of defence. There is such objects as tazers, capsicum spray, baseball bats etc. which may still be used. If for the greater good you have to revert to a lesser weapons well that may just be how it has to be. Australia, Japan, UK have been successfully living this notion out.

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The graphs you used are for gun deaths, though.

Actually, overall crime is going up in Australia. Read the source I provided.

ksu_aviator said:

Point by point:



That, right there is not true. I can send a text in a matter of seconds and get a response almost instantly. There are 651 regulations at the federal level alone. Not to mention that each state has their own rules and regulations to follow. There are minimum waiting periods for all gun sales (except person to person) and there are mandatory background checks.




No. If that were true, then there would be no laws against murder. But there are. We all have rights and those rights have limits. Gun ownership is a right and it has limits. It is horrific that some people will exceed those limits for their own sick purpose, but that does not reflect on the millions of gun owners that behave responsibly. Her attempt to equate legal, responsible gun ownership to mass murder is yet another logical fallacy.




This is a tricky one. I'm not going to post links to the multitude of studies out there, but there is a link between population density and crime. While Australia has a murder rate of 0.4 per 100,000, North Dakota has a crime rate of 0.02 per 100,000 and has not had a "mass shooting" since 2003. Yet they have a similar population density. The one mass shooting was a meth head in a trailer park that killed 3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia#Murder
3218.0 - Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2016
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nd/crime
North Dakota spared a mass shooting in recent years, but not historically | Grand Forks Herald

Despite the fact that ND lives in barbaric US with its atrocious gun laws and evil NRA, it had a lower murder rate than the angelic Australia.




In 2016 there were 19 killed and 26 injured in a stabbing. When will people realize that the tool is not the problem?



$11.4 million, about 1% of his total contributions.

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/nra-contributions-politicians-senators/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/campaign-finance/



That isn't true. The rule that was rescinded never went into effect and would have only changed the way information was shared. Had the rule been in place it likely would not have changed the outcome of this shooting.

https://www.snopes.com/trump-sign-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-illnesses/

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She also said that a person can an automatic weapon in Florida without a permit. Another falsehood.

apdst said:

The graphs you used are for gun deaths, though.

Actually, overall crime is going up in Australia. Read the source I provided.

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Yes I know they are for gun deaths and that was my exact point, that this issue is centred around the effectiveness of legislation pertaining to firearms. The source provided is extremely reliable but only lists the rise of three types of crime. Now there is more than three types or categories of crime, so you cannot read one source that highlights three increases in crime and say Australia's crime rates are going up. Its like reading the first three pages of a book and then casting out assumptions on who is going to die on the last page. I can continue providing data and stats from sources but it is not going to change the stats pertaining to firearms in Australia.

goldkam said:

Yes I know they are for gun deaths and that was my exact point, that this issue is centred around the effectiveness of legislation pertaining to firearms. The source provided is extremely reliable but only lists the rise of three types of crime. Now there is more than three types or categories of crime, so you cannot read one source that highlights three increases in crime and say Australia's crime rates are going up. Its like reading the first three pages of a book and then casting out assumptions on who is going to die on the last page. I can continue providing data and stats from sources but it is not going to change the stats pertaining to firearms in Australia.

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Those three crimes are on the rise and Australians have no way to protect themselves.


At the end of the day, though, you're basically saying **** my family's safety just so you can feel better.

apdst said:

Those three crimes are on the rise and Australians have no way to protect themselves.


At the end of the day, though, you're basically saying **** my family's safety just so you can feel better.

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So just to support my point of view further. I live in Australia and continue to feel safe and happy in this country and this is only accentuated by the strict gun legislation.

To your first point, that article did say they were on the rise. However statistics have since changed and continue to fluctuate and change. I am not denying that crimes in some areas are increasing, they most definitely are. However for the most part they have been decreasing over the past 20-30 years.

To your second point I exemplify this. The fact you say that we have 'no way to protect ourselves' is absurd. There is alternative medium such as martial arts, knives etc.. so to say that is far reaching and idiotic. Secondly on that point we don't need a gun to protect ourselves because the vast majority of people involved in a robbery, break and enter, sexual assault don't have guns because of the strict gun legislation that is in place.

To your third and final point. No I am not saying that I don't care about your family and to directly say for "you" to feel better is out in relation to numerical value. It will make an extensive level of the population feel better. Now if you don't feel safe in your own home or in the streets that is a policing problem and a societal problem. Something that could be addressed in amending gun legislation in the US.

goldkam said:

So just to support my point of view further. I live in Australia and continue to feel safe and happy in this country and this is only accentuated by the strict gun legislation.

To your first point, that article did say they were on the rise. However statistics have since changed and continue to fluctuate and change. I am not denying that crimes in some areas are increasing, they most definitely are. However for the most part they have been decreasing over the past 20-30 years.

To your second point I exemplify this. The fact you say that we have 'no way to protect ourselves' is absurd. There is alternative medium such as martial arts, knives etc.. so to say that is far reaching and idiotic. Secondly on that point we don't need a gun to protect ourselves because the vast majority of people involved in a robbery, break and enter, sexual assault don't have guns because of the strict gun legislation that is in place.

To your third and final point. No I am not saying that I don't care about your family and to directly say for "you" to feel better is out in relation to numerical value. It will make an extensive level of the population feel better. Now if you don't feel safe in your own home or in the streets that is a policing problem and a societal problem. Something that could be addressed in amending gun legislation in the US.

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That's fine, but you'd be safer in North Dakota with a similar population density and MORE guns.

goldkam said:

So just to support my point of view further. I live in Australia and continue to feel safe and happy in this country and this is only accentuated by the strict gun legislation.

To your first point, that article did say they were on the rise. However statistics have since changed and continue to fluctuate and change. I am not denying that crimes in some areas are increasing, they most definitely are. However for the most part they have been decreasing over the past 20-30 years.

To your second point I exemplify this. The fact you say that we have 'no way to protect ourselves' is absurd. There is alternative medium such as martial arts, knives etc.. so to say that is far reaching and idiotic. Secondly on that point we don't need a gun to protect ourselves because the vast majority of people involved in a robbery, break and enter, sexual assault don't have guns because of the strict gun legislation that is in place.

To your third and final point. No I am not saying that I don't care about your family and to directly say for "you" to feel better is out in relation to numerical value. It will make an extensive level of the population feel better. Now if you don't feel safe in your own home or in the streets that is a policing problem and a societal problem. Something that could be addressed in amending gun legislation in the US.

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When seconds count, the cops are minutes away.

ksu_aviator said:

That's fine, but you'd be safer in North Dakota with a similar population density and MORE guns.

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Yes I very well may be. However North Dakota is one of the many states in the US, so how is that going to solve the problem. The problem is in the whole of the US. Additionally more guns is not the answer.

apdst said:

When seconds count, the cops are minutes away.

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It seems you have an extremely narrowed view in relation to the options on the table. That is very well true in many cases. However alternative methods are available and at less of a risk. For example putting increased security on your house, staying away from areas with high gun violence and just being sensible about your decisions. The answer is not simply lets keep the weapon that is in fact weapon against everyone in the US at the moment.

goldkam said:

It seems you have an extremely narrowed view in relation to the options on the table. That is very well true in many cases. However alternative methods are available and at less of a risk. For example putting increased security on your house, staying away from areas with high gun violence and just being sensible about your decisions. The answer is not simply lets keep the weapon that is in fact weapon against everyone in the US at the moment.

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Put more security on my house? What the **** will that do? And if you mean security guards, I can't afford a private security detail.

Naw, I have my firearms...I'm good-to-go.

But, hey...you don't live here; not your problem...right?

goldkam said:

Yes I very well may be. However North Dakota is one of the many states in the US, so how is that going to solve the problem. The problem is in the whole of the US. Additionally more guns is not the answer.

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Chicago has strict, prohibitive gun laws. How's that working for them?

apdst said:

Put more security on my house? What the **** will that do? And if you mean security guards, I can't afford a private security detail.

Naw, I have my firearms...I'm good-to-go.

But, hey...you don't live here; not your problem...right?

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I don't know if you are not familiar with alarm systems, increased security screens, security doors, fences. These are all basic deterrences. No its not my problem anymore because we have solved the problem, you on the other hand are contributing to the problem.

Also on that point I travel there, so it kind of is my problem in a sense.