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Vetplus40

Vetplus40

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If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
 
Vetplus40 said:
If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
Click to expand...

Much like the claim of "i have a black friend" doesn't mean one cannot be a racist, the claim of owning a gun doesn't mean squat either if you still advocate against the very intent of the 2nd Amendment.

Stop blaming an object. Blame the people that use the object. It will be a hell of a lot more effective.
 
Vetplus40 said:
If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
Click to expand...

What, exactly, makes an "assault" rifle excessive and when did that happen? This is where the militia clause of the 2A should come into play (does that not make "military style" arms precisely what were to be protected?). Why are exceptions for "grandfathered" purchases, law enforcement personnel or private security personnel needed?
 
Vetplus40 said:
If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
Click to expand...

And the focus on guns and the NRA continues.

Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on violence in general? Why must the call always be to take away rights instead of to search for solutions that include fundamental rights? Why must the solution always come from government instead of from the individuals in the community?
 
Lutherf said:
And the focus on guns and the NRA continues.

Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on violence in general? Why must the call always be to take away rights instead of to search for solutions that include fundamental rights? Why must the solution always come from government instead of from the individuals in the community?
Click to expand...


I read somewhere that the ‘kids’ are planning a 17 minute walkout in Mar and another in Apr. I would think you that they qualify as the bolded. It is going to their world soon.
 
Vetplus40 said:
If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
Click to expand...

When people like you acknowledge and advocate for:

Getting married before having kids. . .
Competent two parent families raising kids. . .
The value of religious faith that teaches compassion, respect, and value for life. . .
Value of human life in all its stages. . .
Value of churches and stable traditional families in creating safe neighborhoods and responsible citizens. . .
Respecting people of different faiths, different opinions, different beliefs. .
Condemning those who express their anger or opinions through civil disobedience, violence, destruction, or denying others their rights. . .
Understanding how glorified violence in video games, television, movies can negatively affect impressionable minds. . .

and it still seems advisable to ban or restrict certain weapons. . .

I will be happy to have the discussion with you and will be open to the idea that more gun control will make a difference.

Until then I have to say that blaming the tool and not the one who uses it is short sighted and ineffective in addressing the problem.
 
Emotional responces fairly, if ever, result in good policy making.
 
Rexedgar said:
I read somewhere that the ‘kids’ are planning a 17 minute walkout in Mar and another in Apr. I would think you that they qualify as the bolded. It is going to their world soon.
Click to expand...

More evidence that the kids run the show in schools, not the teachers. School officials and parents should put the kibosh on this idiotic idea and quick.
 
Acadia said:
More evidence that the kids run the show in schools, not the teachers. School officials and parents should put the kibosh on this idiotic idea and quick.
Click to expand...

opinion duly noted
 
Vetplus40 said:
If listening to these kids doesn't move you, then you are simply void of character, morality and compassion.

Sadly, if anything gets done regarding assault rifles, it will take these young men and women's persistence to get it done. Because these have become an all to frequent occurrence, we tend to forget them all to quickly. I remember how quickly the "bump stock" issue died after the horrific incident in Vegas.

Now before the paranoid 2nd Amendment "they are coming for your guns, loonie tunes" start their assault, I am a PROUD gun owner, but I will never support the NRA. Why?, because I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter.

We can enjoy liberty without excess. Especially, if it saves lives.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize from the title that this is an anti NRA thread. :roll:
 
Kal'Stang said:
Stop blaming an object. Blame the people that use the object. It will be a hell of a lot more effective.
Click to expand...

Blaming the people who use the object hasn't accomplished anything, has it?




There are two very simple truths here which render just about any discussion moot if the goal is to try to have any sort of serious impact on either mass shootings or gun violence generally:

1. Without the guns, it wouldn't be possible. It IS the guns. Other developed countries with strict gun control have far less gun violence, mass shootings or otherwise. Sure, there are some, but America is the only country where mass shootings are regular. It's also the only first world country with our level of gun violence.

2. The 2nd Amd. isn't going anywhere and I doubt its interpretation (which I agree with, btw) remains as it is.



So while maybe we can talk about trying to make sure dangerously unstable people don't get guns, not much of anything is going to change in America.

But again, #1. It makes perfect sense to take account of our lax gun laws. You cannot account for #1 otherwise. It's not like Americans are genetically different from the rest of humanity such that we just plain love killing people. The guns explain all the gun violence. The guns explain all the mass shootings.

So, it's not that he's wrong to blame the object. It's just that #2 makes it moot.
 
AlbqOwl said:
When people like you acknowledge and advocate for:

Getting married before having kids. . .
Competent two parent families raising kids. . .
The value of religious faith that teaches compassion, respect, and value for life. . .
Value of human life in all its stages. . .
Value of churches and stable traditional families in creating safe neighborhoods and responsible citizens. . .
Respecting people of different faiths, different opinions, different beliefs. .
Condemning those who express their anger or opinions through civil disobedience, violence, destruction, or denying others their rights. . .
Understanding how glorified violence in video games, television, movies can negatively affect impressionable minds. . .

and it still seems advisable to ban or restrict certain weapons. . .

I will be happy to have the discussion with you and will be open to the idea that more gun control will make a difference.

Until then I have to say that blaming the tool and not the one who uses it is short sighted and ineffective in addressing the problem.
Click to expand...

Does everyone have to agree to these eight preconditions before you discuss anything with them? Do you carry around a bundle of forms for them to sign? Will you deign to answer a post from a non-believer?

(Btw I don't think it is here 'advocate for', just 'advocate')
 
Sweden said:
Does everyone have to agree to these eight preconditions before you discuss anything with them? Do you carry around a bundle of forms for them to sign? Will you deign to answer a post from a non-believer?

(Btw I don't think it is here 'advocate for', just 'advocate')
Click to expand...

Do you carry around a reflex hammer for the liberal reflex response?
Why is a list of suggestions offensive? Is it too much to ask that people be responsible or do we all have to be victims who look to the government to solve all of our problems?
We can't legislate humanity, compassion, civility, emotional IQ and tolerance, all of which would go a long way to alleviating the problem of mass gun violence.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
What, exactly, makes an "assault" rifle excessive and when did that happen? This is where the militia clause of the 2A should come into play (does that not make "military style" arms precisely what were to be protected?). Why are exceptions for "grandfathered" purchases, law enforcement personnel or private security personnel needed?
Click to expand...

He said "I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter."

It sounds like he's thinking from the angle of self-defense, the core of the 2nd Amd. right. For self-defense, isn't a handgun or a shotgun (home) the best?



I'm not sure where you're going with "militia clause". If the idea is that the founders intended that people could possess the same weapons as the military, I'd respond "at the time, yes", but then I'd point out that one cannot answer the vast majority of questions with just the original intent. It's the proper starting point.

Technological advancement has produced arms beyond the founders' wildest dreams. I think we can all agree that we wouldn't want individuals to be able to purchase any weapon the military has. Yet, back at the time of the founding, you could. There were merchant ships fitted out with cannons, even. But arms were limited.

I'm not sure the founder's intent is a particularly useful guide when it comes to arguing about what weapons a person should be permitted to own today.




Exceptions: because the people who passed the last "assault weapons" ban knew that if they tried to go around collecting weapons people had purchased legally, they'd never be able to pass another piece of gun control due to voter anger.

Not that the way "assault weapon" was defined made any sense, anyway.....
 
Mr Person said:
Blaming the people who use the object hasn't accomplished anything, has it?
Click to expand...

Except of course no one has been blaming the people for decades. It's much easier to blame an object.

Mr Person said:
There are two very simple truths here which render just about any discussion moot if the goal is to try to have any sort of serious impact on either mass shootings or gun violence generally:

1. Without the guns, it wouldn't be possible. It IS the guns. Other developed countries with strict gun control have far less gun violence, mass shootings or otherwise. Sure, there are some, but America is the only country where mass shootings are regular. It's also the only first world country with our level of gun violence.
Click to expand...

This is a false argument. Take any object away and what happens with that gets reduced. Yet the crimes still happen. Maybe in a different way, but they still happen, and yes, that includes killings. You need to get to the root of the problem, which isn't an object.

Mr Person said:
2. The 2nd Amd. isn't going anywhere and I doubt its interpretation (which I agree with, btw) remains as it is.
Click to expand...

For now its not. That doesn't mean that there are not people that are doing everything that they can to get it re-interpreted or revoked.

Mr Person said:
So while maybe we can talk about trying to make sure dangerously unstable people don't get guns, not much of anything is going to change in America.
Click to expand...

Blame politicians for not going after the right things. :shrug:

Mr Person said:
But again, #1. It makes perfect sense to take account of our lax gun laws. You cannot account for #1 otherwise. It's not like Americans are genetically different from the rest of humanity such that we just plain love killing people. The guns explain all the gun violence. The guns explain all the mass shootings.

So, it's not that he's wrong to blame the object. It's just that #2 makes it moot.
Click to expand...

No, "the guns" do not explain the gun violence or mass shootings. We both know that. There are other reasons but our politicians would rather focus on guns though so you're right that nothing will ever change.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Much like the claim of "i have a black friend" doesn't mean one cannot be a racist, the claim of owning a gun doesn't mean squat either if you still advocate against the very intent of the 2nd Amendment.

Stop blaming an object. Blame the people that use the object. It will be a hell of a lot more effective.
Click to expand...

Here is a simple question for you: Do you personally believe in speed limits for automobiles?
 
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Kal'Stang said:
Except of course no one has been blaming the people for decades. It's much easier to blame an object.



This is a false argument. Take any object away and what happens with that gets reduced. Yet the crimes still happen. Maybe in a different way, but they still happen, and yes, that includes killings. You need to get to the root of the problem, which isn't an object.



For now its not. That doesn't mean that there are not people that are doing everything that they can to get it re-interpreted or revoked.



Blame politicians for not going after the right things. :shrug:



No, "the guns" do not explain the gun violence or mass shootings. We both know that. There are other reasons but our politicians would rather focus on guns though so you're right that nothing will ever change.
Click to expand...



If it's not the guns, why are our rates of gun violence generally and mass shootings specifically way beyond that of all the other developed nations with strict gun control?

As for other crimes: if anything's a false argument, it's that right there. You can't tell me that I'm wrong that our very high level of gun ownership explains our very high levels of gun violence and mass shootings because, without guns, people will still commit crimes. That doesn't make my point incorrect.

Over the decades, there maybe have been a few "mass stabbings", but it's very rare. I don't know about you, but I know what I'd decide if I had to choose between fighting someone with a gun and fighting someone with a knife.
 
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Mr Person said:
He said "I see no need for owning an assault rifle, a machine gun, a rocket launcher or a tank for that matter."

It sounds like he's thinking from the angle of self-defense, the core of the 2nd Amd. right. For self-defense, isn't a handgun or a shotgun (home) the best? /QUOTE]

I was never comfortable owning a handgun due to kids and grandkids. Yes, I am aware of locks and gun safes, but I didn't want to have to keep it locked up in case I needed it for quick access. My rifles and shotguns are antiques, and rarely used for anything other than target practice.

I will start to buy into the 2nd. Amendment stance when the gun addicts show me where the Constitution gives me the right to operate an automobile. I can't find such a provision in my copy here at home.
Click to expand...
 
Sweden said:
Does everyone have to agree to these eight preconditions before you discuss anything with them? Do you carry around a bundle of forms for them to sign? Will you deign to answer a post from a non-believer?

(Btw I don't think it is here 'advocate for', just 'advocate')
Click to expand...

IMO, those who don't agree that all or most of the items on that list--I could have included others--are at least as important as gun control to address violence in our society are not serious about addressing violence in our society. They are serious about giving the government more control and ability to dictate to us what our rights will be and the Constitution can be damned.
 
AlbqOwl said:
IMO, those who don't agree that all or most of the items on that list--I could have included others--are at least as important as gun control to address violence in our society are not serious about addressing violence in our society. They are serious about giving the government more control and ability to dictate to us what our rights will be and the Constitution can be damned.
Click to expand...
Democrats are all about keeping the electorate on the government teat.
 
Mr Person said:
If it's not the guns, why are our rates of gun violence generally and mass shootings specifically way beyond that of all the other developed nations with strict gun control?

As for other crimes: if anything's a false argument, it's that right there. You can't tell me that I'm wrong that our very high level of gun ownership explains our very high levels of gun violence and mass shootings because, without guns, people will still commit crimes. That doesn't make my point incorrect.

Over the decades, there maybe have been a few "mass stabbings", but it's very rare. I don't know about you, but I know what I'd decide if I had to choose between fighting someone with a gun and fighting someone with a knife.
Click to expand...

If it IS the guns, why are we not seeing the same degree of violence in Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Israel where the populations are also heavily armed and people using them to commit mass murder is almost non existent? Is it possible it is more a cultural thing than the presence of guns?
 
Acadia said:
Democrats are all about keeping the electorate on the government teat.
Click to expand...

Well let's cut the Democrats some slack here. There are honorable Democrats. There are intellectually honest Democrats. I happen to believe there are people who support some leftist policies and are still honorable. Admittedly, as their leadership pushes the party further and further into snowflake la-la land though, those are becoming an endangered species.
 
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