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Public Service Announcement: Scope of Meuller's Inquiry

Mr Person said:
Oh, I'm not the one who is posting lies. It's a real shame some people require the narrative that it was only about collusion in order to make their position on this coherent to themselves. It just isn't true.

:shrug:
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Fine. It was 95% about Trump/Russian collusion and 5% whatever other crap they could throw in.
 
dobieg said:
Fine. It was 95% about Trump/Russian collusion and 5% whatever other crap they could throw in.
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One can tell just how far right the media sources someone relies on by asking them to estimate percentages like that. Of course you're not going to know that there were constant articles about potential interference, obstruction charges facing Flynn, Manafort, etc., if you only listen to Trump's tweets and the media that parrots them.

If you'd cast a wider net, you'd be able to see the right wing media narrative for what it is: a dishonest attempt to discredit Mueller, "the left" generally, etc.
 
dobieg said:
You're being dishonest and you know it.
Click to expand...



WaPo even put together a several minute covering all the times Trump called various stories "fake news":

https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.n...57318-vhunw0_t_1519062772569_854_480_1200.mp4

June 25 2016: claimed it was actually the DNC that hacked the DNC and released emails.

July 27 2016: says Russia is a "total deflection" and asks Russia to find Hillary's missing emails.

Aug 2016: Trump starts get intel briefings

Sept 8, 2016: Trump says dismisses Russian attempt to disrupt election, suggests it was Democrats.

9/27/16: Nobody knows it is Russia, Trump says, could be China or a fat man in a bed.

Oct 2016: US Intel confirms Russia trying to compronmise

10/9/16: suggests it's not Russia but perhaps also that there is no hacking, that it's all about tarnishing him.

12/11/16: Again suggests it could be some other country, claims democrats put it out not the intelligence community.

January 2017: Seems to recognize Russian interference in speech, then tweets it's all made up.

2/16/17: Flynn fired after lying about conversations with Russians. Trump says Russia is "all a fabricated fake news to make up for the loss"

March 2017: Comey confirms the FBI is looking into potential collusion (first time in all these statements it was collusion, not interference). Trump fires Comey.

5/11/17: Trump admits firing Comey because of the Russia investigation, calls Russia made up again.

DOJ then appoints Mueller. Mueller gets the very broad mandate quoted and linked to in this OP.

(There was more after but the video doesn't cover it. There was even one tweet just the otehr day)



Even Trump was aware that they were looking much more broadly at Russian attempts to interfere, but you weren't? Impossible.

Yet there you are with the lie-deny-deflect routine, claiming it was only ever about collusion (you're not the only one on these boards spreading such lies, unfortunately).



See here's the thing. I think it's far more likely that Trump has been focused on trying to deny Russian interference, on casting doubt on our entire intelligence apparatus, and blaming the Democrats because he worries that people doubt the legitimacy of his victory - that if Russia helped him, it wasn't really just his victory.

What I'm truly worried about is why YOU and others are so desperate to deny the same. Is *getting* people on the left really so important that you will tear down any institution while turning a blind eye to foreign meddling?

We really don't deserve a democracy anymore, it would seem.
 
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Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
9 minutes ago

Obama was President up to, and beyond, the 2016 Election. So why didn’t he do something about Russian meddling?





What's that, Trump? The meddling you spent the entire lying about?
 
Fletch said:
Not one person believes that.
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Nobody saying it and nobody believing it are two different things. Have you seen no pattern of behavior on Trump's part that seems to indicate his not just reluctance but refusal to treat the Russian CRIMES with the seriousness they deserve? He has not imposed the sanctions that Congress approved, he gave them back their compound in the US and he has stated on numerous occassions that he doesn't think they did it, even after being presented with proof.

Clearly, what we have is a leader who is less interested in justice for foreign criminals and more interested in sweeping it under a rug. And his followers are enabling and excusing his apathy to the process of establishing the facts. Does this nation care if there is a traitor in the whitehouse? The conservatives apear not to by the effort they expend in defending Trump.

So, it's too late for you to speak for everyone on the right. Their silence is deafening. Obviously, they care more about shame avoidance than punishing criminals. Washington corruption, their long-time battle cry, has become a whimper of denial from a group of people who have suddenly found themselves immune to their own stench. Certainly, though, they will regain their senses at the first sign that some lefty has sold out.

If Trump had not been a self-serving douche his whole life, the charges would seem less believable. My impression of Trump is that he is both arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and dumb enough to try. My impression of his followers is that they just want to win, even if we lose collectively.
 
Mr Person said:
WaPo even put together a several minute covering all the times Trump called various stories "fake news":

https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.n...57318-vhunw0_t_1519062772569_854_480_1200.mp4

June 25 2016: claimed it was actually the DNC that hacked the DNC and released emails.

July 27 2016: says Russia is a "total deflection" and asks Russia to find Hillary's missing emails.

Aug 2016: Trump starts get intel briefings

Sept 8, 2016: Trump says dismisses Russian attempt to disrupt election, suggests it was Democrats.

9/27/16: Nobody knows it is Russia, Trump says, could be China or a fat man in a bed.

Oct 2016: US Intel confirms Russia trying to compronmise

10/9/16: suggests it's not Russia but perhaps also that there is no hacking, that it's all about tarnishing him.

12/11/16: Again suggests it could be some other country, claims democrats put it out not the intelligence community.

January 2017: Seems to recognize Russian interference in speech, then tweets it's all made up.

2/16/17: Flynn fired after lying about conversations with Russians. Trump says Russia is "all a fabricated fake news to make up for the loss"

March 2017: Comey confirms the FBI is looking into potential collusion (first time in all these statements it was collusion, not interference). Trump fires Comey.

5/11/17: Trump admits firing Comey because of the Russia investigation, calls Russia made up again.

DOJ then appoints Mueller. Mueller gets the very broad mandate quoted and linked to in this OP.

(There was more after but the video doesn't cover it. There was even one tweet just the otehr day)



Even Trump was aware that they were looking much more broadly at Russian attempts to interfere, but you weren't? Impossible.

Yet there you are with the lie-deny-deflect routine, claiming it was only ever about collusion (you're not the only one on these boards spreading such lies, unfortunately).



See here's the thing. I think it's far more likely that Trump has been focused on trying to deny Russian interference, on casting doubt on our entire intelligence apparatus, and blaming the Democrats because he worries that people doubt the legitimacy of his victory - that if Russia helped him, it wasn't really just his victory.

What I'm truly worried about is why YOU and others are so desperate to deny the same. Is *getting* people on the left really so important that you will tear down any institution while turning a blind eye to foreign meddling?

We really don't deserve a democracy anymore, it would seem.
Click to expand...


Wow, you strung together a bunch of Trump denials before he was President and got intelligence briefings. Brilliant!


And save me your hyperbole about why you're worried. You could care less and are simply blowing snot whenever you think it will make Trump or his supporters look bad.
 
Mr Person said:

Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
9 minutes ago

Obama was President up to, and beyond, the 2016 Election. So why didn’t he do something about Russian meddling?





What's that, Trump? The meddling you spent the entire lying about?
Click to expand...


Once again you give Obama a free pass on everything you vilify Trump for.


Your side really is ridiculous.
 
dobieg said:
Wow, you strung together a bunch of Trump denials before he was President and got intelligence briefings. Brilliant! And save me your hyperbole about why you're worried. You could care less and are simply blowing snot whenever you think it will make Trump or his supporters look bad.
Click to expand...

dobieg said:
Once again you give Obama a free pass on everything you vilify Trump for.Your side really is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Don't bother replying if all you're going to do is sling poo.
 
Mr Person said:

Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
9 minutes ago

Obama was President up to, and beyond, the 2016 Election. So why didn’t he do something about Russian meddling?





What's that, Trump? The meddling you spent the entire lying about?
Click to expand...

Obama lives rent free in Trump's head. How sad.

Yes, the meddling he said never existed and that he refuses to call Russia out on.
 
D_NATURED said:
Nobody saying it and nobody believing it are two different things. Have you seen no pattern of behavior on Trump's part that seems to indicate his not just reluctance but refusal to treat the Russian CRIMES with the seriousness they deserve? He has not imposed the sanctions that Congress approved, he gave them back their compound in the US and he has stated on numerous occassions that he doesn't think they did it, even after being presented with proof.

Clearly, what we have is a leader who is less interested in justice for foreign criminals and more interested in sweeping it under a rug. And his followers are enabling and excusing his apathy to the process of establishing the facts. Does this nation care if there is a traitor in the whitehouse? The conservatives apear not to by the effort they expend in defending Trump.

So, it's too late for you to speak for everyone on the right. Their silence is deafening. Obviously, they care more about shame avoidance than punishing criminals. Washington corruption, their long-time battle cry, has become a whimper of denial from a group of people who have suddenly found themselves immune to their own stench. Certainly, though, they will regain their senses at the first sign that some lefty has sold out.

If Trump had not been a self-serving douche his whole life, the charges would seem less believable. My impression of Trump is that he is both arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and dumb enough to try. My impression of his followers is that they just want to win, even if we lose collectively.
Click to expand...

You don't understand Trump. Everything is about him. His antagonism toward Russian meddling is based upon the idea that he wants nothing to tarnish his victory, not that he has done anything wrong and is trying to hide it.
 
Fletch said:
And the left wing portrayal of people on the right is what? Lets see, racist, fascist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic. Did I leave anything out?
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If so many (not the majority, but many) on the Right didn't fit those descriptions, there might not be such a portrayal...but we do see not just those kinds of behaviors, but even specific legislation for each of those (with the exception of fascist) pushed by Republican politicians.
 
Fletch said:
You don't understand Trump. Everything is about him. His antagonism toward Russian meddling is based upon the idea that he wants nothing to tarnish his victory, not that he has done anything wrong and is trying to hide it.
Click to expand...

People who are that insecure should not seek public office. The excuse that he is just a raging narcissist trying to preserve his legacy is a poor one, though, given how many lagoon creatures he brought to his swamp draining party. I disagree with your assessment that he's an innocent victim of his own ego. He utterly failed to vet his appointees, who were comprised of Russian operatives, financial criminals and white supremacists. That's no accident.

He's a criminal douche and his ego exists in spite of that fact. The problems with Trump go well beyond one man's misunderstanding of him. No decent human being COULD understand him.

The failure with the Trump election was not in the ability of the media to expose him but in the failure of GOP voters to care that they were electing a traitorous oligarch.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
If so many (not the majority, but many) on the Right didn't fit those descriptions, there might not be such a portrayal...but we do see not just those kinds of behaviors, but even specific legislation for each of those (with the exception of fascist) pushed by Republican politicians.
Click to expand...

So in other words, you are only upset at the rights characterization of the left, but you the lefts characterization of the right is accurate. That's typical. The right are Nazis and the left are as pur as the wind driven snow. You run with that.
 
D_NATURED said:
People who are that insecure should not seek public office. The excuse that he is just a raging narcissist trying to preserve his legacy is a poor one, though, given how many lagoon creatures he brought to his swamp draining party. I disagree with your assessment that he's an innocent victim of his own ego. He utterly failed to vet his appointees, who were comprised of Russian operatives, financial criminals and white supremacists. That's no accident.

He's a criminal douche and his ego exists in spite of that fact. The problems with Trump go well beyond one man's misunderstanding of him. No decent human being COULD understand him.

The failure with the Trump election was not in the ability of the media to expose him but in the failure of GOP voters to care that they were electing a traitorous oligarch.
Click to expand...

Except there is no evidence that Trump is a 'traitorous oligarch' or virtually anything else you said. You believe it in spite of the evidence, not because of the evidence.
 
Fletch said:
You don't understand Trump. Everything is about him. His antagonism toward Russian meddling is based upon the idea that he wants nothing to tarnish his victory, not that he has done anything wrong and is trying to hide it.
Click to expand...

Am I agreeing with one of your posts?

:thinking




Yeah, exactly. I don't think there was actual collusion. (Maybe he's that arrogant, but I doubt it). However, like all Special Counsel inquiries, this is much broader and I really wouldn't mind if Trump ends up going down for something like obstruction.

I've had enough of this national embarassment.
 
Fletch said:
Except there is no evidence that Trump is a 'traitorous oligarch' or virtually anything else you said. You believe it in spite of the evidence, not because of the evidence.
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Well, there is some magical thinking. As for Trump being an oligarch, his budget and tax proposals prove that beyond a doubt. Any poor or middle class person who thinks it was for their benefit are fools. As for him being traitorous, do you imagine it is a coincidence that so many of his cabinet are linked to Russian meetings and money laundering they didn't report during an investigation of Russian manipulation of the vote? I'm curious what level of evidence needs to exist before your bull**** detector goes off. There is nothing noble or fair about waiting for this moron to crash the bus before asking if he knows how to drive it. No, let's all be ****ing cautious so we don't appear to have a bias, you know like when you have a bias toward democracy or ethical government.

When mounting evidence of widespread administration corruption and graft are insufficient to ignite any light of suspicion in this nation's Trumpy sycophants, we have seen the true power of dumb. I believe BECAUSE of the evidence that Trump's supporters are people who believe you can do the wrong thing for the "right" reason and they don't care if the nation is harmed because the nation, "we, the people", is an idea they have detested and threatened for decades. Trump fights for a version of America that is exclusive and elitist and hateful. Even if he isn't under the thumb of whatever Russian has a video of his pee-pee fetish, he betrays this nation's foundational values with his every breath.

So, you go ahead and chill, I'm sure that when we begin to go off the mountain, someone less judicious will suggest grabbing the wheel.
 
D_NATURED said:
Well, there is some magical thinking. As for Trump being an oligarch, his budget and tax proposals prove that beyond a doubt. Any poor or middle class person who thinks it was for their benefit are fools. As for him being traitorous, do you imagine it is a coincidence that so many of his cabinet are linked to Russian meetings and money laundering they didn't report during an investigation of Russian manipulation of the vote? I'm curious what level of evidence needs to exist before your bull**** detector goes off. There is nothing noble or fair about waiting for this moron to crash the bus before asking if he knows how to drive it. No, let's all be ****ing cautious so we don't appear to have a bias, you know like when you have a bias toward democracy or ethical government.

When mounting evidence of widespread administration corruption and graft are insufficient to ignite any light of suspicion in this nation's Trumpy sycophants, we have seen the true power of dumb. I believe BECAUSE of the evidence that Trump's supporters are people who believe you can do the wrong thing for the "right" reason and they don't care if the nation is harmed because the nation, "we, the people", is an idea they have detested and threatened for decades. Trump fights for a version of America that is exclusive and elitist and hateful. Even if he isn't under the thumb of whatever Russian has a video of his pee-pee fetish, he betrays this nation's foundational values with his every breath.

So, you go ahead and chill, I'm sure that when we begin to go off the mountain, someone less judicious will suggest grabbing the wheel.
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Or, you could actually provide evidence of your charges against Trump. If you have some evidence of criminal wrongdoing, collusion or treason, lay it out there and I will look at it.
 
Mr Person said:
Am I agreeing with one of your posts?

:thinking




Yeah, exactly. I don't think there was actual collusion. (Maybe he's that arrogant, but I doubt it). However, like all Special Counsel inquiries, this is much broader and I really wouldn't mind if Trump ends up going down for something like obstruction.

I've had enough of this national embarassment.
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We've got to stop all this agreeing with one another nonsense. Wheres the fun in that?
 
Fletch said:
Not one person believes that.
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Really? i have seen people post that exact sentiment on these very boards...
Every day there are Putin,/Russian apologists posting on here.
 
GDViking said:
Really? i have seen people post that exact sentiment on these very boards...
Every day there are Putin,/Russian apologists posting on here.
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Link to one.
 
dobieg said:
You're being dishonest and you know it. What has been on the headlines in the papers and tv for the last year?


Now you're trying to say the hundreds of hours CNN and MSNBC have devoted to Trump/Russia collusion in breathless fashion along with the dozens of sensational headlines out of the NYTImes and Washington Post were simply a part of the equal story of Russian interference?



Sorry but you can't change the truth now because you're upset it looks like option #1 ain't going so hot.
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How so? Do you remember when Flynn sent a message to a Russian operative DURING trumps inauguration informing them that the sanctions are officially over?

Now Flynn has flipped, and yet the sanctions still are not In effect.

And that is just some of what the public knows, and you in some way come to the conclusion that Mueller has nothing?

You have to be stretch Armstrong to make a stretch like that...
 
Fletch said:
Link to one.
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Never have learned to link on this phone.

But if you are honest with yourself, you are on here enough that you will admit to yourself that you have seen them as well.
 
Mr Person said:
I keep seeing people enter threads that relate in some way to Mueller's investigation and ask where the collusion is. So I am going to provide the letter appointing Mueller, the relevant passages of the federal regulations governing a Special Counsel, and will at least note what the other provisions are generally about.

....
Click to expand...


Just understand that this isn't the first election Russia meddled in and it won't be the last. The appointment of Mueller sets a precedent to investigate every elected president and, perhaps, every official elected to a federal office from here on out.
 
Fletch said:
Exactly. I am glad Mueller has focused on Russian interference, but it has been the left who have relentlessly made this investigation about collusion with the Trump campaign.
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And now it looks like they were all just useful idiots.

Hard to say if that's better or worse.
 
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