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The memo and why we should all be concerned

Goshin

Goshin

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A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
 
Goshin said:
A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
Click to expand...

Is this a joke?

There really is no indication that the warrant was issued improperly or for partisan reasons. That may be the narrative that some are drawing, but it's not supported by the evidence so far.

Meanwhile, there is A LOT of smoke around Trump's campaign and ties to foreign governments, so based on what we know, there's every indication that the surveillance on Carter Page was reasonable and that the proper procedures were followed.
 
i support eliminating or significantly regulating FISA. get a real warrant.

Over the entire 33-year period, the FISA court granted 33,942 warrants, with only 12 denials – a rejection rate of 0.03 percent of the total requests.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court
Click to expand...

however, this memo doesn't do what Republicans hoped that it would do : compromise the investigation so that Trump has an excuse to fire Rosenstein, give Mueller a new boss, and then limit the scope of the investigation by proxy. it's an obvious ploy, and the investigation will continue. if Trump fires Rosenstein now, it will generate the same consequences for Republicans as firing Mueller would.
 
Goshin said:
Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate.
Click to expand...

Forgetting that half the Trump campaign was in the pocket of Russian intelligence is exactly what the GOP wants, isn't it?
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Is this a joke?

There really is no indication that the warrant was issued improperly or for partisan reasons. That may be the narrative that some are drawing, but it's not supported by the evidence so far.

Meanwhile, there is A LOT of smoke around Trump's campaign and ties to foreign governments, so based on what we know, there's every indication that the surveillance on Carter Page was reasonable and that the proper procedures were followed.
Click to expand...

Why was it reasonable to spy on Page?
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Is this a joke?

There really is no indication that the warrant was issued improperly or for partisan reasons. That may be the narrative that some are drawing, but it's not supported by the evidence so far.

Meanwhile, there is A LOT of smoke around Trump's campaign and ties to foreign governments, so based on what we know, there's every indication that the surveillance on Carter Page was reasonable and that the proper procedures were followed.
Click to expand...


I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
 
I guess you know nothing about Carter Page.

Two years before joining the Trump campaign as a foreign policy adviser, New York business consultant Carter Page was targeted for recruitment as an intelligence source by Russian spies promising favors for business opportunities in Russia, according to a sealed FBI complaint.

Page confirmed to ABC News that he is the individual identified as "Male-1" in a 2015 court document submitted in a case involving the Russian spies.

Page told ABC News he cooperated in the case and felt the feds "unmasked" him by describing him in January 2015 in a manner that would be known to energy insiders.

"I didn't want to be a spy," he said in an interview early Monday afternoon. "I'm not a spy."

According to the document, the FBI interviewed Page as part of an investigation stemming from the indictment of three Russian men identified as agents of the Russian foreign intelligence agency, the SVR. One of them, Evgeny Buryakov, was operating undercover as an executive in the New York office of a Russian development bank.
Click to expand...

Trump campaign adviser Carter Page targeted by Russian spies - ABC News

None of these facts about Carter Page has anything to do with the Steele dossier.
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...

The fbi has been known to use biased sources all the time. If the information is legitimate, who gives a toss if it is biased?
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...

The memo is cherrypicked from a political bias unvetted by the President who released it or the supposedly recused functionary who ordered it, and it's a ploy to undermine the FBI so that Trump can escape his just deserts.
 
Goshin said:
A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
Click to expand...

Your bulleted points are assertions that have been coming from right-wing media and politicians for what seems like eons now. They are not facts. That memo the house Repubs cooked up didn't really change that. In fact, to me it's quite a letdown given the blather we've been getting since news of this thing surfaced.

It seems to me they want Trump loyalty oaths from anyone and everyone that has any sort of power. That is wrong, let alone so unrealistic as to be absurd.
 
Fletch said:
Why was it reasonable to spy on Page?
Click to expand...


Really? In 2013/2014 Carter Page was meeting with Russian officials!

Many sources google "Carter Page meets Russian spies!"
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...


Your assumption means that you accept this Republican "memo" as gospel. I can't do that yet....
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...

I read the memo. I also know the context and background of the investigation. The fact is, Carter Page was under investigation before he ever got involved in the Trump campaign, and the warrant in question was a renewal of an existing warrant, indicating that the investigation had produced independent evidence.

The Steele dossier was funded by the Clinton campaign and the DNC, but that doesn't indicate that it's finding aren't of relevance to an investigation into Carter Page.

Basically, even if every word of Nunes' memo is true, the idea that the investigation is completely motivated by partisanship is still just speculation.
 
Fletch said:
Why was it reasonable to spy on Page?
Click to expand...

Because he had multiple meetings with Russian agents? Because of evidence that he was corrupted by foreign influences? It's the court's decision whether to issue a warrant.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Because he had multiple meetings with Russian agents? Because of evidence that he was corrupted by foreign influences? It's the court's decision whether to issue a warrant.
Click to expand...

Outside of the dossier, what evidence was provided to the court to back up these claims?
 
Rexedgar said:
Really? In 2013/2014 Carter Page was meeting with Russian officials!

Many sources google "Carter Page meets Russian spies!"
Click to expand...

Ok. And what became of that investigation into Page?
 
Goshin said:
Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate.
Click to expand...

Why? It's critical to understanding the entire issue.
Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
Click to expand...

There's no credible evidence that happened.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
Click to expand...

There's no credible evidence, whatsoever, that that happened.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.
Click to expand...

Only to those who desperately need to see that when it's in fact not there. There is no credible evidence availablt to suggest that.

No one had his/her civil rights violated, and the memo doesn't show that it happened.
 
Helix said:
i support eliminating or significantly regulating FISA. get a real warrant.



however, this memo doesn't do what Republicans hoped that it would do : compromise the investigation so that Trump has an excuse to fire Rosenstein, give Mueller a new boss, and then limit the scope of the investigation by proxy. it's an obvious ploy, and the investigation will continue. if Trump fires Rosenstein now, it will generate the same consequences for Republicans as firing Mueller would.
Click to expand...

It’s like y’all have blinders on, one side used fake evidence to get warrants to illegally spy on the other side.
Will you feel the same if Trump does it to your candidate in the next election since y’all are totally ok with this kind of corruption.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Fletch said:
Outside of the dossier, what evidence was provided to the court to back up these claims?
Click to expand...

None of us know. That's classified information.
 
Goshin said:
A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
Click to expand...

I can't take your post seriously because the very first reason regarding the judge rubberstamping the order is pure conjecture. Nunes released a 1 page memo. The original request was many pages, 30 to 50 from what I heard. His memo also mentioned the funding by Dems but "forgot" to mention it was originally funded by a very wealthy Republican. We have no idea what went into the judges decision until we see the entire request. I'm sure its mostly classified and we will never know. Releasing cherry picked data is as bad as keeping everything secret. You and I and most everyone have no idea if it was "rubber stamped". Be interesting to see if the Cons go forward and issue subpoenas and appoint a special prosecutor. If they do nothing but release this 1 page memo then it is simply a political exercise and worthy of contempt. Ball is in their court as they control the house & senate.
 
Fletch said:
Ok. And what became of that investigation into Page?
Click to expand...

The request for the extension of the surveillance was granted three times. Perhaps the other question is, "what is Carter Page doing walking around."......I'm wondering if this is the 'damage' the Democrats were referring to??
 
Greenbeard said:
Forgetting that half the Trump campaign was in the pocket of Russian intelligence is exactly what the GOP wants, isn't it?
Click to expand...

There is not one tiny scrap of evidence to show that ANY PART of the Trump campaign was "in the pocket of Russian intelligence".
 
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