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The memo and why we should all be concerned

Goshin said:
A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
Click to expand...

100% biased, as biased as the re-action....

THAT should be every American's concern.

From here it looks like you're tearing yourselves apart, the White House attacking the integrity of it's own institutions?

It's obvious there's panic as noted in your post. But why is the White House so terrified that it is destroying trust in the very institutions the nation needs to ensure democracy is protected.

This isn't so much a domestic party dispute, but designed anarchy to counter every criticism, not matter how slight.
 
SirGareth said:
That's the trouble with you lefty, progressive, socialist, communist shape shifters, you keep on saying our worthless government bureaucracy is the real America instead of the people who built it. It's like saying wood-ticks make the forests great.
Click to expand...

Would it be possible for you to set your hate to one side and explain what is a "lefty socialist, communist shape shifter"?

Because you see, you can't be all those things at the same time, which suggests to me this is White House spam. It is in keeping with the Trump philosophy; attack the speaker not the topic. Further, I am curious about the term "shape shifters".

In over blowing the rhetoric in an accusatory tone as above, you declare yourself at war with those things you attack. So...

Please explain what is a "lefty." I am a liberal who supports universal health care, a strong social safety net etc., while at the same time supporting the "safe" development of resources by the private sector,

What is a "socialist" in your world? Socialists usually support heavy if not 100% penetration of the private sector, which I doubt anyone in the US is in favor of. "Communism" has never been understood by Americans, you still think China and Cuba are "communist"...and shape shifters?

Run out of adjectives did you?

What is really creepy is that you are talking about your fellow Americans. If the right so disrespects it's own neighbors, why would anyone in the world respect you?

Once again as has been the case all throughout history we see the hard-wire connection between ideology and hate.
 
SirGareth said:
I've got a great command of synonyms within the English language however: lefty, progressive, socialist, communist shape-shifter and Democrat all mean pretty much the same thing.
Click to expand...

Not really. But you are of course free to believe as you wish.
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...

Read the history behind the memo. The FBi has been interested in Page since 2013, long before any of this. And the so called dossier was only used when the FBi requested a third warrant to surveil and it was only used as one in many reasons for the FBI to continue to surveil Page. Look beyond the partisan memo into the whole history of the FBI and Page and you will see that nothing was done wrong. In fact if the FBI hadn't done as they had, then you would be out there yelling they weren't doing their jobs. The memo you are using is nothing but garbage and everyone with a brain knows it.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
I guess you know nothing about Carter Page.



Trump campaign adviser Carter Page targeted by Russian spies - ABC News

None of these facts about Carter Page has anything to do with the Steele dossier.
Click to expand...

After 5 years a surveillance, Page should have been charged. If, after 5 years of surveillance, there isn't enough evidence of a crime to charge him, he should be left alone.

Surveilling someone until he commits a crime goes against everything our country stands for.
 
Rexedgar said:
Really? In 2013/2014 Carter Page was meeting with Russian officials!

Many sources google "Carter Page meets Russian spies!"
Click to expand...

How do you explain the fact that he was never charged?
 
apdst said:
How do you explain the fact that he was never charged?
Click to expand...


I have no idea. If you follow the timeline, Page was under surveillance before he entered the official Trump circle. He didn't wipe his shoes before entering....
 
poweRob said:
Like I said, at war with the dictionary.

And if they all mean the same thing... why would there be any shape-shifting? I mean how does one "shape-shift" from one term to another that you say is the same thing? Seems your grasp is a lot looser than you think.
Click to expand...

Werewolves are shape shifters, one minute they are all kindly towards the Russians (reset buttons, Mitt Romneu living in the past for calling Russia a threat, etc.) then all of sudden something happens (as lose an election) and they shape shift into the same beasts they used to condemn. It's a communist or socialist thing, progressives and Democrats do it too, its all pretty much the same.
 
Goshin said:
A friend of mine had the following to say about the memo; I think it is spot-on.



I've been watching the "hysteria" on the released memo most of the night. From BOTH sides of the MSM isle.


Here's my thoughts on the subject....

Forget the implication that a opposing candidate's staffer was targeted for surveillance, thereby targeting the candidate. Forget that one major party has COMPLETELY flipped regarding the morality of a secret court authorizing surveillance on an American citizen. Here's what EVERY American citizen should be concerned about.....
• A judge "rubber stamped" a warrant for surveillance.
• A duly authorized law enforcement agency requested the warrant under VERY questionable circumstances.
• There are strong implications that the warrant was requested... and surveillance conducted.... based on political bias.

Those 3 things ALONE should concern EVERY American.... left, right, independent, liberal, conservative, or libertarian. The fact alone.... that an American citizen could have his/her civil rights VIOLATED based on political bias is disturbing in the extreme.... this strikes AT THE CORE of our freedoms. The right of dissent or opposition to whatever political party in power is the core of our freedoms. The Republicans had their Watergate.... now the Democrats have this. The one difference.... Watergate was 2-3 individuals.... this is at LEAST 2 GOVERNMENT agencies.
Left or Right.... consider this.... whatever party, Democrat or Republican, in power can squash opposing POV using all the powers that it can bring to bear. That includes the courts.
Whatever our differences in political ideology.... this is something that should be of the greatest concern to EVERY American citizen.
And consider this..... the media.... the supposed "watchdogs" of government abuse.... are completely ignoring the implications of this abuse of power and civil liberties.
Click to expand...

What they did was legal. People should have thought of this before freaking and supporting the Patriot Act. House and Senate also renewed all the FISA legislation under Trump. I am laughing at the entire GOP and the country. I never supported the Patriot Act, but Americans overwhelming let this happened.
 
SheWolf said:
What they did was legal. People should have thought of this before freaking and supporting the Patriot Act. House and Senate also renewed all the FISA legislation under Trump. I am laughing at the entire GOP and the country. I never supported the Patriot Act, but Americans overwhelming let this happened.
Click to expand...



I've been critical of the so-called Patriot Act from the moment I found out what was in it. I'm disturbed that partisanship and hatred for Trump are taking precedent in this situation, when it ought to be viewed as an example of FISA abuse and an opportunity to do something about it.

But nobody gives a damn about anything but hating Trump and everything associated with him and apparently would approve of anything done against him.
 
Goshin said:
I've read the memo. The sources used to obtain the FISA warrant were clearly acting out of political bias and correct vetting procedure was not used on the basis for the warrant.

Seems very clear to me this was a political ploy to use the FBI against a political opponent.


Read the memo. It's available.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your perspective. You are one of the few who is actually able to put aside the names and focus on what was done. :thumbs:
 
To me the memo alludes to abuse of power. A least one person's civil liberties, 4th and 14th amendments, have been violated. But it isn't the first time during the Obama administration that occurred.

Do you recall not that long ago of how the Obama administration surveilled members of Congress? And what about surveilling reporters like James Rosen and others? They did that without FISA warrants.

Look, FISA court totally rebuked Obama administration over their MANY abuses just days before the election. It was that rebuke that brought about the IG Horowitz being called to investigate the behavior of intel agencies and the Department of Justice.


Here's a montage from the recent past year to shake your memory.



Some of the bad actors in the Obama administration were circling the wagons on the Sunday shows. It is becoming very obvious that this memo has hit the target and its implications should cause every American to be alarmed.
 
Goshin said:
I've been critical of the so-called Patriot Act from the moment I found out what was in it. I'm disturbed that partisanship and hatred for Trump are taking precedent in this situation, when it ought to be viewed as an example of FISA abuse and an opportunity to do something about it.

But nobody gives a damn about anything but hating Trump and everything associated with him and apparently would approve of anything done against him.
Click to expand...

A lot of people were alleging that Eliot Spitzer fell to the same partisan abuse of FISA and wire taping. Trump and the GOP just renewed the FISA laws. So what does that say about the GOP?

It looks like GOP propaganda, and this is politics as usual now. Also, it's legal.
 
Last edited:
vesper said:
To me the memo alludes to abuse of power. A least one person's civil liberties, 4th and 14th amendments, have been violated. But it isn't the first time during the Obama administration that occurred.

Do you recall not that long ago of how the Obama administration surveilled members of Congress? And what about surveilling reporters like James Rosen and others? They did that without FISA warrants.

Look, FISA court totally rebuked Obama administration over their MANY abuses just days before the election. It was that rebuke that brought about the IG Horowitz being called to investigate the behavior of intel agencies and the Department of Justice.


Here's a montage from the recent past year to shake your memory.



Some of the bad actors in the Obama administration were circling the wagons on the Sunday shows. It is becoming very obvious that this memo has hit the target and its implications should cause every American to be alarmed.
Click to expand...


This all partisan IMO. There were always problems with FISA and the Patriot Act. Only now are many right wingers acknowledging it. Unfortunately, all the condemnation on the right is also partisan as if right wing politicians are the people being victimized.

Right wing politicians have been accused of exploiting FISA for political advancement as well. Not to mention ordinary Americans should have been really concerned about it all from the beginning.
 
SheWolf said:
What they did was legal. People should have thought of this before freaking and supporting the Patriot Act. House and Senate also renewed all the FISA legislation under Trump. I am laughing at the entire GOP and the country. I never supported the Patriot Act, but Americans overwhelming let this happened.
Click to expand...

Neither did I, but bureaucrats committing perjury is not "completely legal"
 
SheWolf said:
This all partisan IMO. There were always problems with FISA and the Patriot Act. Only now are many right wingers acknowledging it. Unfortunately, all the condemnation on the right is also partisan as if right wing politicians are the people being victimized.

Right wing politicians have been accused of exploiting FISA for political advancement as well. Not to mention ordinary Americans should have been really concerned about it all from the beginning.
Click to expand...

Let's see, the solution to all this political corruption is to surrender to these same politicians even more of our cash and allow them take more control over our lives - Wheeee, what could go possibly go wrong - "I'm a proud progressive?"
 
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