Legal immigration

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

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Legal immigrants come from South America, North America, and Australia to the US as well, not just those three.

americanwoman said:

Legal immigrants come from South America, North America, and Australia to the US, not just those three.

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Noted and corrected. Any other thoughts?

Lovebug said:

Noted and corrected. Any other thoughts?

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I see it mixed. Some legal immigrants I know resent the illegals and others don't. More often though it's the ones who have family members who are illegal that are conflicted. They may not like the benefits illegals get over them but they don't exactly want their grandma or aunt deported. It's complicated for them.

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

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The better question is: What to the "dreamers" neighbors (back in their homelands) think who obeyed the law and have been either denied or are still awaiting US entry visa approval?

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

Click to expand...

It's a good question, but I think your last part was not good. If a child was brought here by his parents when he was 2 years old, and it's the only country he's ever lived in or known, and he speaks English, how is it rewarding him for something he had exactly no control over? A 2 year old doesn't intentionally break the law.

I know a few people who immigrated here legally. My next door neighbors, from India. They want the DACA children (who I know aren't children anymore but who were brought here as children) to have a path to citizenship because it wasn't their idea to break the laws in the first place. They aren't big into punishing the children for the sins of the parents. They're the only ones I've ever talked to about this. There are probably some polls out there.

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

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Absolutely not.

The legal immigrants i know despise our ridiculous immigration system and how it allows their peers to be oppressed by leveraging their ability to live here against them.

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

Click to expand...

You people are so clueless. YOu think money grows on trees? What, only rich people from other countries can come here? Why would they if they already are doing well? People come here for opportunity to better their lives. Most of them risk their life, for their families, work their asses off at multiple jobs, for their family. And the ignorants act like that is terrible. I guess that's what you have to do to have hate for people, just make up lies about them instead of the reality.

It costs 10-20K in fees, attorneys, etc to legally immigrate, and likely only an option for highly educated people. THose that came here legally are already higher than the poor the have to sneak it in their status in life.

Can't stand the often times intentional stupidity, dishonesty and hypocrisy of the right

Well, I have had this conversation with my wife, who is a green card holder. She says she will get her citizenship this year. Of course, she said that last year too.

She is more conservative than I on these things. She comes from a much poorer environment than almost anyone in Mexico or other countries in South America. She is from Cambodia. She didn’t own her first pair of shoes until she was 8 years old when she got her first job selling mangos on the street and didn’t have electricity or running water until she moved away from her village at 14 to go work in the Phnom Penh. So she is less swayed by many of the sad stories than I am.

However, she does agree with me that people who were brought here as children and have lived here for years without a serious criminal record shouldn’t be uprooted from the only life they know just because their parents didn’t play by the rules.

tres borrachos said:

It's a good question, but I think your last part was not good. If a child was brought here by his parents when he was 2 years old, and it's the only country he's ever lived in or known, and he speaks English, how is it rewarding him for something he had exactly no control over? A 2 year old doesn't intentionally break the law.

I know a few people who immigrated here legally. My next door neighbors, from India. They want the DACA children (who I know aren't children anymore but who were brought here as children) to have a path to citizenship because it wasn't their idea to break the laws in the first place. They aren't big into punishing the children for the sins of the parents. They're the only ones I've ever talked to about this. There are probably some polls out there.

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Just a question, why is there a very selective moral outrage about "children being punished for the crime of their parents" when this is literally the case with ANY other crime? The kids, for one, lose a parent which is extremely catastrophic for their childhood. They possibly become a social pariah and risk fiscal stability with legal fees. The list goes on.

This is how the world has always worked in response to criminal justice. You should focus more on these parents who put the well being of their children at risk by knowingly breaking laws in a country which can put them at future risk.

Koke said:

Just a question, why is there a very selective moral outrage about "children being punished for the crime of their parents" when this is literally the case with ANY other crime? The kids, for one, lose a parent which is extremely catastrophic for their childhood. They possibly become a social pariah and risk fiscal stability with legal fees. The list goes on.

This is how the world has always worked in response to criminal justice. You should focus more on these parents who put the well being of their children at risk by knowingly breaking laws in a country which can put them at future risk.

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Yeahright. The government's hands are tied. There's no choice. Those kid's fates were sealed years ago, by their parents, and there's nothing can be done about it.
That about right?

Sampson Simpson said:

You people are so clueless. YOu think money grows on trees? What, only rich people from other countries can come here? Why would they if they already are doing well? People come here for opportunity to better their lives. Most of them risk their life, for their families, work their asses off at multiple jobs, for their family. And the ignorants act like that is terrible. I guess that's what you have to do to have hate for people, just make up lies about them instead of the reality.

It costs 10-20K in fees, attorneys, etc to legally immigrate, and likely only an option for highly educated people. THose that came here legally are already higher than the poor the have to sneak it in their status in life.

Can't stand the often times intentional stupidity, dishonesty and hypocrisy of the right

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I'm not sure why you make an all encompassing statement with "the right" but I'll bite.

There are a couple of issues with what your saying being true whatsoever which becomes pretty ironic when you go on to call people clueless, intentionally stupid, dishonest, and hypocritcal. A lot of ad-hom for an OP that was relatively indirect and innocent.

You people are so clueless. YOu think money grows on trees? What, only rich people from other countries can come here? Why would they if they already are doing well?

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Rich people from other countries come here because while they may be rich, their country is still incredibly poor. I can't remember off the top of my head but there are like two African (Nigeria and Ghana?) countries from which people immigrate that are more fiscally stable than whites in America on average. It's not because those countries have superior immigrants or an extremely high IQ base, it's because the people who are intelligent enough to be at the top 1% of their country eventually want to move out of the hellhole. This causes brain drain and it's why most very poor countries are in a perpetual loop of being so because anyone with remotely high intelligence leaves the country as soon as possible. This is one reason I'm opposed to immigration.

Most of them risk their life, for their families, work their asses off at multiple jobs, for their family. And the ignorants act like that is terrible.

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Probably true but as do many Americans. I've not seen any scientific study that proves immigrants "work harder" (however you would quantify that) but I have seen evidence to prove the contrary when it comes to immigrants from poorer countries. Third world migrants almost always have much higher rates of welfare collection and government aid in the household.
https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-and-Native-Households
https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2000/Yearbook2000.pdf

And the ignorants act like that is terrible. I guess that's what you have to do to have hate for people, just make up lies about them instead of the reality.

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Again just more ad-hom and emotional triggering. If you think that the reason people oppose immigration, specifically that from the third world, is hate than you truly have no grasp on the opposite sides argument.

Grand Mal said:

Yeahright. The government's hands are tied. There's no choice. Those kid's fates were sealed years ago, by their parents, and there's nothing can be done about it.
That about right?

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Why did you answer my question with another sarcastic question?

I'm just saying I tend to see a lot of selective moral outrage when it comes to some arguments, ESPECIALLY immigration. If this isn't the case then you need to explain to me how we're going to solve the impact other crimes cause on children's lives because there is a long list.

Koke said:

Just a question, why is there a very selective moral outrage about "children being punished for the crime of their parents" when this is literally the case with ANY other crime? The kids, for one, lose a parent which is extremely catastrophic for their childhood. They possibly become a social pariah and risk fiscal stability with legal fees. The list goes on.

This is how the world has always worked in response to criminal justice. You should focus more on these parents who put the well being of their children at risk by knowingly breaking laws in a country which can put them at future risk.

Click to expand...

If you're asking me should a murderer not be locked up because it may hurt their child, the answer is no. But we aren't having the same conversation because the children really don't get punished. It's a collateral effect of the parents' crime, and they (the children) have to move).

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

Click to expand...

"Press 2 for Spanish" is good business. Capitalism. Non-Hispanic immigrants probably put signs in Spanish up in their stores. Of course Latin American immigrants probably love it, much as Americans might love signs in English in Mexico. Also good business. Stores in my Brooklyn Italian neighborhood, even the one owned by a Jewish guy, had signs in, guess what? Italian.

True, here in California immigrants from Mexico have changed all our place names to Spanish. And in northern Vermont and New Hampshire, I saw some signs in French. Something to worry about. Or instead, you could wake up and smell the pizza... er, rice and beans... er, hoisin sauce... er, falafel.

Funny story. Big controversy as an Italian-American neighborhood in 1970s north Denver changed to Mexican-American. Mexicans wanted to change the name of a local park from "Columbus Park" to "La Raza Park." Italians didn't. Irony: in Mexico, when I lived there, Columbus Day was referred to as "Dia de la Raza."

The more things change... the more they remain the same.

tres borrachos said:

It's a good question, but I think your last part was not good. If a child was brought here by his parents when he was 2 years old, and it's the only country he's ever lived in or known, and he speaks English, how is it rewarding him for something he had exactly no control over? A 2 year old doesn't intentionally break the law.

I know a few people who immigrated here legally. My next door neighbors, from India. They want the DACA children (who I know aren't children anymore but who were brought here as children) to have a path to citizenship because it wasn't their idea to break the laws in the first place. They aren't big into punishing the children for the sins of the parents. They're the only ones I've ever talked to about this. There are probably some polls out there.

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Best post I've seen on this subject. You have wise neighbors.

tres borrachos said:

If you're asking me should a murderer not be locked up because it may hurt their child, the answer is no. But we aren't having the same conversation because the children really don't get punished. It's a collateral effect of the parents' crime, and they (the children) have to move).

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I just listed reasons as to why a parent committing murder could be catastrophic for a child's life and could possibly ruin it. It's almost insensitive to claim the children don't get punished because they most definitely do. A child with a stable home life and non-divorced married parents (who aren't in prison) has a MASSIVE leg up on a child from a single mother household or a chaotic and shifting home environment.

Hell, if their entire family got deported at least the home and family stays intact. No statistic to back it but I'd be willing to bet a deportation of a stable family is less mentally detrimental to a child than living in a single mother household in the United States.

Koke said:

Just a question, why is there a very selective moral outrage about "children being punished for the crime of their parents" when this is literally the case with ANY other crime? The kids, for one, lose a parent which is extremely catastrophic for their childhood. They possibly become a social pariah and risk fiscal stability with legal fees. The list goes on.

This is how the world has always worked in response to criminal justice. You should focus more on these parents who put the well being of their children at risk by knowingly breaking laws in a country which can put them at future risk.

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You don't like the system where the taxpayers support the criminal "breadwinner" in jail and their family on the outside (now left without a source of income) until the kids grow up? You lack compassion for sure.

This is the land of opportunity to transform oneself from a mere poor person into a "needy household", fully deserving of taxpayer support, by adding minor dependents. The less that a "needy household" earns then the more help (in the name of those innocent children, of course) that they deserve. This country, although currently over $20T in debt, is rich so there is no reason to question this system at all.

Koke said:

I just listed reason as to why a parent committing murder could be catastrophic for a child's life and could possibly ruin it. It's almost insensitive to claim the children don't get punished because they most definitely do. A child with a stable home life and non-divorced married parents (who aren't in prison) has a MASSIVE leg up on a child from a single mother household or a chaotic and shifting home environment.

Hell, if their entire family got deported at least the home and family stays intact. No statistic to back it but I'd be willing to bet a deportation of a stable family is less mentally detrimental to a child than living in a single mother household in the United States.

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It still isn't the same conversation. People who commit crimes get punished, period. That's the law. We also don't deport the children of people who commit crimes for the crimes their parents commit.

Nickyjo said:

"Press 2 for Spanish" is good business. Capitalism. Non-Hispanic immigrants probably put signs in Spanish up in their stores. Of course Latin American immigrants probably love it, much as Americans might love signs in English in Mexico. Also good business. Stores in my Brooklyn Italian neighborhood, even the one owned by a Jewish guy, had signs in, guess what? Italian.

True, here in California immigrants from Mexico have changed all our place names to Spanish. And in northern Vermont and New Hampshire, I saw some signs in French. Something to worry about. Or instead, you could wake up and smell the pizza... er, rice and beans... er, hoisin sauce... er, falafel.

Funny story. Big controversy as an Italian-American neighborhood in 1970s north Denver changed to Mexican-American. Mexicans wanted to change the name of a local park from "Columbus Park" to "La Raza Park." Italians didn't. Irony: in Mexico, when I lived there, Columbus Day was referred to as "Dia de la Raza."

The more things change... the more they remain the same.

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Why would that be something to worry about?

I disagree if it's happening, if they're going to change place names in that region it should be in one of the Algonquin tongues, Iroquois, who "settled the region for over a thousand years before Europeans landed, who by the way were French explorers, most notably Champlain, as in Lake Champlain

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

Click to expand...

They are often bitter at the undocumented because they themselves were put through the ringer trying to do it legally and 10 years later still on the treadmill going to nowhere. At least that's the way my friend from Mexico felt.

tres borrachos said:

It still isn't the same conversation. People who commit crimes get punished, period. That's the law. We also don't deport the children of people who commit crimes for the crimes their parents commit.

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No but it is.

If a bank robber steals three million dollars to give to their kids and some of it is spent, does that bank robbers children retain the assets they've bought with it and whatever money is left? Of course not. Is the government stealing those assets and money? No, they are taking back unjust claims.

Likewise, the government is taking back unjust claims on citizenship because the procedure was not properly followed. You can make an argument (if you believe it to be true) that the procedure to enter this country is too difficult a hurdle for people to traverse. I'm simply saying that the law should be upheld and followed and that is entirely sensible from any point of view.

I'm not sure where your logical disconnect is with all of this. As I said earlier, it seems to be a very selective moral outrage when it comes to illegals.

Lovebug said:

I am very curious what legal immigrants have to say about this entire immigration/DACA debate. Many many people have jumped through hoops, waited their turn, paid their dues, submitted to health and backgrounds checks. They dial the phones and hear "press 2 for Spanish". They are from Asia, Europe, Africa and more. They came to seek the American dream.
What are they thinking? Do they see themselves as forgotten 2nd class citizens? Do they wonder why they obeyed the laws while others get rewarded for breaking them?

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Here is what one prominent legal immigrant has to say about it:

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/955423309096738816/video/1

tres borrachos said:

It's a good question, but I think your last part was not good. If a child was brought here by his parents when he was 2 years old, and it's the only country he's ever lived in or known, and he speaks English, how is it rewarding him for something he had exactly no control over? A 2 year old doesn't intentionally break the law.

I know a few people who immigrated here legally. My next door neighbors, from India. They want the DACA children (who I know aren't children anymore but who were brought here as children) to have a path to citizenship because it wasn't their idea to break the laws in the first place. They aren't big into punishing the children for the sins of the parents. They're the only ones I've ever talked to about this. There are probably some polls out there.

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Not talking about DACA, but legal vs illegal immigration. Is that fair?

Sampson Simpson said:

You people are so clueless. YOu think money grows on trees? What, only rich people from other countries can come here? Why would they if they already are doing well? People come here for opportunity to better their lives. Most of them risk their life, for their families, work their asses off at multiple jobs, for their family. And the ignorants act like that is terrible. I guess that's what you have to do to have hate for people, just make up lies about them instead of the reality.

It costs 10-20K in fees, attorneys, etc to legally immigrate, and likely only an option for highly educated people. THose that came here legally are already higher than the poor the have to sneak it in their status in life.

Can't stand the often times intentional stupidity, dishonesty and hypocrisy of the right

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The question is about legal vs illegal immigration, laws.