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As expected, Trump blames others for his leadership failure.

YorkshirePete said:
Boy, you swallowed the line hook line and sinker.
I bet you think more jobs were created in 2017 under the C grabber than in 2016
Heard the old joke "if you are not smart enough to get a real job, join the military. Great socialist benefits"
You do know we spend more on the military than the next 10 countries?
What a bunch of uneducated paranoid pantywaists.
White nationalists killed way more rubes here than Muslims since 911.
Don't know that either?
Click to expand...

Claire McCaskill brought up a measure to insure our military members still get paid during the shutdown. McConnell killed it. Just to point that out, that when our military members arent getting paid, it was a Dem who tried to insure they did, and McConnell who killed it.
 
YorkshirePete said:
Boy, you swallowed the line hook line and sinker.
I bet you think more jobs were created in 2017 under the C grabber than in 2016
Heard the old joke "if you are not smart enough to get a real job, join the military. Great socialist benefits"
You do know we spend more on the military than the next 10 countries?
What a bunch of uneducated paranoid pantywaists.
White nationalists killed way more rubes here than Muslims since 911.
Don't know that either?
Click to expand...

This could not sum up your idiocy any better.

Please don't pretend you know anything about the military when it's very obvious you have no clue.
 
Harshaw said:
I didn't get a "yes," "no," nor anything having to with "2013" anywhere in there.

It's not hard to figure out why.

You asked if Trump was "lying" by saying that in 2013.

Apparently, you think he was. Yet at the same time, you want to hold him and others to it NOW as though it was the truth.

You know this, which is exactly why you're being so evasive in answering the question. I didn't expect much of anything else.
Click to expand...

Its really the Same old same old with trump.

He says one thing one time and the opposite thing later and its always OK with his supporters and anybody who challenges that gets attacked. Whatabouted.

Your guy flip flops constantly, which is generally considered unacceptable.

Of course he did it throughout the campaign.

But everybody was too high on the neurochemicals that they had been conditioned with to care.

All he had to do was say "build the wall" and the internal inconsistencies were blotted out by the rush of joy juice.

My favorite was the "table of lies". Steaks from a business long gone. Wine from a winery that the website says he has nothing to do with. An in house brochure for one of his resorts he claimed as a "magazine" he had published. Nothing on that table was what he claimed it was.

And nobody on your side called him on it.

They were too high.
 
What if...? said:
Its really the Same old same old with trump.

He says one thing one time and the opposite thing later and its always OK with his supporters and anybody who challenges that gets attacked. Whatabouted.

Your guy flip flops constantly, which is generally considered unacceptable.

Of course he did it throughout the campaign.

But everybody was too high on the neurochemicals that they had been conditioned with to care.

All he had to do was say "build the wall" and the internal inconsistencies were blotted out by the rush of joy juice.

My favorite was the "table of lies". Steaks from a business long gone. Wine from a winery that the website says he has nothing to do with. An in house brochure for one of his resorts he claimed as a "magazine" he had published. Nothing on that table was what he claimed it was.

And nobody on your side called him on it.

They were too high.
Click to expand...

He's not my guy, and I didn't ask what Trump is saying now.
 
woodsman said:
You do understand that the majority and minority leaders in both houses are in fact the leadership. Trump cannot single handedly pass this legislation, only do his best as an arbitrator to help move his parties agenda forward but also facilitate compromise.

There is more than one Issue of contention, Daca, Dreamers, boarder security, E-verify, chain immigration, lottery immigration and other. The Democrats idea of compromise is they want the whole pastry shop not just their cake.

In the end, the liberal lunatics hold the lions share of fault, they couldn’t give a toss about these people, they are looking down the road at voting blocks and will sell out anyone, and any agency affected by a shutdown.
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You do understand that Trump blamed Obama for the shutdown, so this is just another instance where he lied out of both sides of each of his two rectums, yes? No. Fine.

So here it is: Trump knew that the President cannot single-handedly pass legislation, but he ran his worthless mouth at Obama - as right wingers applauded - when the GOP held the government hostage in the past. Worse, this time, there were at least two known instances when a deal was close, where Trump signalled that he would be amenable, but then where Trump later blew it all up by demanding more/more/more.





It really is quite amazing to see the shift in posting styles. I was here for 1.2 years under Obama (elsewhere since 2004ish), and 1 year under Trump. Some have gone from blaming the Presidency for everything negative and crediting the economy (or the GOP) with anything positive to the opposite.
 
Vetplus40 said:
I wonder what happened between the 2013 Trump comment on a shutdown and now?

I know! Somebody else was President and THEY could be held accountable.

Now, that Trump is POTUS, it MUST be somebody else's fault because nothing is EVER his fault.
Click to expand...

For an Independent, you seem to really hate Trump.
 
Harshaw said:
I didn't get a "yes," "no," nor anything having to with "2013" anywhere in there.

It's not hard to figure out why.

You asked if Trump was "lying" by saying that in 2013.

Apparently, you think he was. Yet at the same time, you want to hold him and others to it NOW as though it was the truth.

You know this, which is exactly why you're being so evasive in answering the question. I didn't expect much of anything else.
Click to expand...


You don't get to demand yes/no answers on a debate forum. Hell, most of the time you don't even get a simply yes/no in a courtroom. People know when someone is trying to pidgeonhole them.



That's why he added the nuance that would evade the pidgeonholding:

Praxas said:
I stated my answer in my words. If the house and senate provided Obama (or in this case Trump) a BI-PARTISAN bill that Obama (or in this case Trump) rejected than it is the president's fault (Trump in this case) for a shutdown. Can't get much easier than that. I don't play the "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no" games that you want to play.
Click to expand...


See? He's told you how you can easily discern when he would and would not blame a President for a shutdown. All you have to do is go apply it.
 
Soopairik said:
For an Independent, you seem to really hate Trump.
Click to expand...

The trouble with DP is that some people use "independent" to show that they really have no ideological affiliation and agree with stuff from all across the spectrum, dependent on subject.

Others use "independent" when they almost entirely agree with one side, but use it because they aren't a registered party member.
 
Vetplus40 said:
I wonder what happened between the 2013 Trump comment on a shutdown and now?

I know! Somebody else was President and THEY could be held accountable.

Now, that Trump is POTUS, it MUST be somebody else's fault because nothing is EVER his fault.
Click to expand...
He put it right next to schummer position condemning Republicans for trying to use a gov shutdown to leverage positions on obamacare. Oh that's right your partisan hacker only allows you to find criticisms about trump. I'm guessing you don't own any mirriors

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
 
Mr Person said:
You don't get to demand yes/no answers on a debate forum. Hell, most of the time you don't even get a simply yes/no in a courtroom. People know when someone is trying to pidgeonhole them.
Click to expand...

Funny, the rules of debate say I can ask any sort of question I want. A yes or no question necessitates a yes or no answer. If he wants to elaborate further, that's his prerogative, but he didn't answer the question, and chose to deflect, for obvious reasons.

If you've done any trial work, you know that the judge would agree with me that the witness didn't answer the question and would likely grant my request that he instruct the witness to do so. :shrug: It was a relevant question, fairly asked.
 
NIMBY said:
Some will point to Carter's 6 shutdowns, with a DEM trifecta, 5 completely over abortion, and the 6th related to abortion. GOPresidents have averaged only 3 days out; DEM presidents have averaged 14 days out ...
Click to expand...

Did you rely on memories from the Carter Era (1/77 - 1/81) or did you recently read about these 6 shutdowns? Just today, I read something entirely different.

Democrats in turn blamed Republicans and Trump for a basic failure to govern, noting that this shutdown is the first in history to occur when a single party controls both chambers of Congress and the White House. And they blamed Trump for repeatedly backing out of agreements that would have resolved the dispute.
Click to expand...

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-reasons-why-the-government-shut-down/551027/
 
NIMBY said:
Some will point to Carter's 6 shutdowns, with a DEM trifecta, 5 completely over abortion, and the 6th related to abortion. GOPresidents have averaged only 3 days out; DEM presidents have averaged 14 days out ...
Click to expand...

President Carter's "shutdowns" were before the budget bickering had any real impact. The government wasn't actually shutting down, it was just budgetary head-butting at the time.
 
Harshaw said:
Funny, the rules of debate say I can ask any sort of question I want. A yes or no question necessitates a yes or no answer. If he wants to elaborate further, that's his prerogative, but he didn't answer the question, and chose to deflect, for obvious reasons.

If you've done any trial work, you know that the judge would agree with me that the witness didn't answer the question and would likely grant my request that he instruct the witness to do so. :shrug: It was a relevant question, fairly asked.
Click to expand...

Who the hell do you think you are?
 
Harshaw said:
Funny, the rules of debate say I can ask any sort of question I want. A yes or no question necessitates a yes or no answer. If he wants to elaborate further, that's his prerogative, but he didn't answer the question, and chose to deflect, for obvious reasons.

If you've done any trial work, you know that the judge would agree with me that the witness didn't answer the question and would likely grant my request that he instruct the witness to do so. :shrug: It was a relevant question, fairly asked.
Click to expand...

Rules of the debate forum? By logic and even trolling logic, he's free to ignore a question that tries to pidgeonhole him. Which is what he did. So yeah...."rules". Ok.

:lamo





Anyway, it's really not worth my time, so I'll ignore the ever-present personal jab and leave it at expressing my condolences that he saw your attempt to pidgeonhole him and evaded it by making clear what his point was.


:2wave:
 
woodsman said:
So, you are suggesting that the majority and minority leaders are not leadership
Click to expand...

No, that is your monumentally dishonest misinterpretation. The poster you responded to was saying that President Trump believes leadership starts at the top. It was never about what your or i or the other poster thought leadership was until you decided to dishonestly deflect about it.

woodsman said:
, the only dishonesty in my statement was you not getting the full context and felt the need for the usual balloon quote nonsense and game
Click to expand...

The fact that you're whining about how i explicitly address every meaningful aspect of your post speaks for itself.

woodsman said:
It’s always amusing when someone accusing one of lying is in fact lying about what you have stated with the selective reduction of a statement then puts that into quote balloons.
Click to expand...

There is nothing meaningful here to address.

woodsman said:
This tactic is as disingenuous and lame as it gets with debate and attempts to have one defend the out of context quotes and never covers the topic.
Click to expand...

Ironic.

woodsman said:
Here are some topics we could debate on this thread, chain immigration, lottery immigration programs, E-verify, boarder security, Dreamers and a host of other.

This may be difficult though, you have already shown the willingness to be completely dishonest.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you could address what i said rather than peddling such excuses.
 
Vetplus40 said:
I wonder what happened between the 2013 Trump comment on a shutdown and now?

I know! Somebody else was President and THEY could be held accountable.

Now, that Trump is POTUS, it MUST be somebody else's fault because nothing is EVER his fault.
Click to expand...

That is silly. Trump is the greatest person for the job, so go and tell every body, and this goes for you too ... Enjoy the money... and raise.
 
Harshaw said:
Funny, the rules of debate say I can ask any sort of question I want. A yes or no question necessitates a yes or no answer. If he wants to elaborate further, that's his prerogative, but he didn't answer the question, and chose to deflect, for obvious reasons.

If you've done any trial work, you know that the judge would agree with me that the witness didn't answer the question and would likely grant my request that he instruct the witness to do so. :shrug: It was a relevant question, fairly asked.
Click to expand...

However, the oath witnesses swear is. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yes or no answers are often asked to try to establish black and white to a gray situation.

Refusing to answer yes or no could reasonably be construed as not telling the "whole" truth.

"I can not answer yes or no and fulfill the oath you required me to swear."
 
Trippy Trekker said:
Did you rely on memories from the Carter Era (1/77 - 1/81) or did you recently read about these 6 shutdowns? Just today, I read something entirely different.



https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-reasons-why-the-government-shut-down/551027/
Click to expand...

I began teaching in 1976, shortly after the CBA and Roe v. Wade, when fights over federal funding of abortion were all the rage. So no, my memory on the Carter shutdowns didn't evolve. :mrgreen:

Btw, this battle continues today. And yes, it was the Civiletti opinions of '80/'81 that gave us 11 of the last 12 shutdowns, with the other during Reagan when scheduled social events were more important ...
 
What if...? said:
However, the oath witnesses swear is. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yes or no answers are often asked to try to establish black and white to a gray situation.

Refusing to answer yes or no could reasonably be construed as not telling the "whole" truth.

"I can not answer yes or no and fulfill the oath you required me to swear."
Click to expand...


It really depends on the circumstances. The vast vast vast majority of sets of transcripts I've read lately contain a relatively small amount of yes/no questions, and those on relatively simple points. Witnesses regularly add more regardless of what the lawyer says. If it's responsive even if more than yes/no, the judge will let it stand. The witnesses don't bother with "I need to say more to fulfill my oath", they just say it. In hundreds of thousands of pages of transcripts, I don't think I've ever seen a judge strike testimony because it wasn't "yes or no". Very rarely will they direct the witness to say just yes or no.

Sure, the lawyer who wants a specific answer that helps them without potential elaboration that doesn't may try to cut off the witness (at peril of looking like an asshole to the jury and/or someone who wants to hide things from them), but the whole "yes/no" routine is rather overplayed in popular culture.





Of course, the whole routine is retarded on a debate forum, especially where the full answer conveys a precise meaning but a "yes or no" would give the inquisitor the only part of the answer which serves whatever game is being played.
 
Praxas said:
when the senate and house present the president a bi-partisan agreement for a budget and the president rejects it, the president is responsible for the shut down. In this case the house and senate presented the president a bi-partisan idea that he rejected so the shutdown is on Trump.
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This statement reveals an unbelievable level of ignorance as to how the budgeting process works, I find the left often works at levels of ignorance that would astound a 6th grade student of the 1950's

A "bi-partisan" bill is one that has has been sponsored by as little as two people from separate parties, i.e. an "Independent" and a Democrat.

Budget Bills must be introduced to the Senate after being passed by the House and need to be first discharged from the budget committee, passed by the full senate with at least 60% margin (8 Democrats) before the President can consider it and then sign it if he approves.

There is NO bill for the president to either accept or reject. It cannot get through the Senate because the Democrats will not pass any Bill, they think they can fool very stupid people into believing its "Trumps fault"

Here it is in more depth:

https://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-introduction-to-the-federal-budget-process

Your civics lesson was free today, next time Ill submit a bill.
 
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Mr Person said:
Rules of the debate forum? By logic and even trolling logic, he's free to ignore a question that tries to pidgeonhole him. Which is what he did. So yeah...."rules". Ok.

:lamo





Anyway, it's really not worth my time, so I'll ignore the ever-present personal jab and leave it at expressing my condolences that he saw your attempt to pidgeonhole him and evaded it by making clear what his point was.


:2wave:
Click to expand...

To quote Harshaw:

A yes or no question necessitates a yes or no answer.
Click to expand...

I just glimpsed at the Forum Rules. No where did I see the "Harshaw Rule".

I think Harshaw wants to make up rules.
 
SirGareth said:
This statement reveals an unbelievable level of ignorance as to how the budgeting process works, I find the left often works at levels of ignorance that would astound a 6th grade student of the 1950's

A "bi-partisan" bill is one that has has been sponsored by as little as two people from separate parties, i.e. an "Independent" and a Democrat.

Budget Bills must be introduced to the Senate after being passed by the House and need to be first discharged from the budget committee, passed by the full senate with at least 60% margin (8 Democrats) before the President can consider it and then sign it if he approves.

There is NO bill for the president to either accept or reject. It cannot get through the Senate because the Democrats will not pass any Bill, they think they can fool very stupid people into believing its "Trumps fault"

Here it is in more depth:

https://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-introduction-to-the-federal-budget-process

Your civics lesson was free today, next time Ill submit a bill.
Click to expand...

Truly, in very laughable fashion, you clearly attributed ignorance to the wrong poster.
 
Mr Person said:
Well, that's a stupidly partisan way of putting it. Trump twice lead the Ds to believe he might approve a compromise, only to turn around and blow it up by demanding way more in exchange for nothing.

The first time was before the "****hole" meeting. The second was yesterday in a meeting with Schumer.




If the Rs want to get everything they want, whenever they want it, and never ever have to compromise, they'll need 60 seats in the senate. Still, it's nothing new for right-wingers to blame the Dems whenever the GOP holds the country hostage and issues demands. They got too used to it under Obama.
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the "art of the deal" from a master negotiator. the best negotiator
 
What if...? said:
Its really the Same old same old with trump.

He says one thing one time and the opposite thing later and its always OK with his supporters and anybody who challenges that gets attacked. Whatabouted.

Your guy flip flops constantly, which is generally considered unacceptable.

Of course he did it throughout the campaign.

But everybody was too high on the neurochemicals that they had been conditioned with to care.

All he had to do was say "build the wall" and the internal inconsistencies were blotted out by the rush of joy juice.

My favorite was the "table of lies". Steaks from a business long gone. Wine from a winery that the website says he has nothing to do with. An in house brochure for one of his resorts he claimed as a "magazine" he had published. Nothing on that table was what he claimed it was.

And nobody on your side called him on it.

They were too high.
Click to expand...
you misspelled "ignorant"
 
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