Prescient prophecy about the rise ofTrumpism from an American philosopher

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

“Members of labor unions, and un-organized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers - themselves desparately afraid of being downsized - are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The non-suburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for - someone willing to assure them that once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen and post modernist professors will no longer be calling the shots...

One thing that is very likely to happen then is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion... All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet”
― Richard M. Rorty

Richard Rorty (October 4, 1931 – June 8, 2007) was a prominent American philosopher, and chair of the American philosophical Association (APA) for some time, and well as professor emeritus of philosophy and the humanities at Stanford University. He is not very well-known outside academic circles, but is very well-known and respected within academia. I have read a few things by him, and found him to be a very insightful writer. But I saw this quote above recently on https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/100476.Richard_M_Rorty, and it absolutely bowled me over. I don't know when the date of that quote is, but he passed away in 2007, so it can't have been too recent. I suspect this was even written in the 1990s. He died before Obama became president. But it seems like he had an extraordinary foresight to this coming. Amazing.

Is this what has happened?

Chomsky · Jan 19, 2018

Great post.

Yeah, pretty much sounds like it to me.

trblmkr · Jan 19, 2018

While it does seem prescient, and I agree, quite detailed, it could be used to describe many of the falls of governments and rise of dictators or "strong men" in the last 100 years. Just look at Putin and Russia. The same thing happened there. People became disillusioned after the fall didn't work out and they were drawn to Putin and his promises. Now you can see the starting of that to unravel as Putin has not been able to fulfill the promises he made to the masses and his corruption and cronyism has come to light. History has been proven to repeat itself and all empires that rise, eventually fall.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
Richard Rorty (October 4, 1931 – June 8, 2007) was a prominent American philosopher, and chair of the American philosophical Association (APA) for some time, and well as professor emeritus of philosophy and the humanities at Stanford University. He is not very well-known outside academic circles, but is very well-known and respected within academia. I have read a few things by him, and found him to be a very insightful writer. But I saw this quote above recently on https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/100476.Richard_M_Rorty, and it absolutely bowled me over. I don't know when the date of that quote is, but he passed away in 2007, so it can't have been too recent. I suspect this was even written in the 1990s. He died before Obama became president. But it seems like he had an extraordinary foresight to this coming. Amazing.

Is this what has happened?

He is absolutely correct about why people are angry. We've overtaxed and stolen from the productive members of society too much, and they're not going to stand for it anymore. What I take issue with is the way he phrased that last part. Many of the "gains" of black and brown Americans have been nothing more than aggression against whites in the form of minority business loans, affirmative action, diversity quotas, and the like. He seems sad that this system is coming to an end. I see nothing to be sad about.

RetiredUSN · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
Richard Rorty (October 4, 1931 – June 8, 2007) was a prominent American philosopher, and chair of the American philosophical Association (APA) for some time, and well as professor emeritus of philosophy and the humanities at Stanford University. He is not very well-known outside academic circles, but is very well-known and respected within academia. I have read a few things by him, and found him to be a very insightful writer. But I saw this quote above recently on https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/100476.Richard_M_Rorty, and it absolutely bowled me over. I don't know when the date of that quote is, but he passed away in 2007, so it can't have been too recent. I suspect this was even written in the 1990s. He died before Obama became president. But it seems like he had an extraordinary foresight to this coming. Amazing.

Is this what has happened?

Your Mr. Richard Rorty?

Hyperbole at best.

Come see us when gays and people of color are stripped of their rights!

And, bye the way.......he also said this:

This Left is more likely to participate in a public shaming than to lobby for a new law; it is more likely to mobilize to occupy a park or shut down a freeway than to register voters. It “exaggerates the importance of philosophy for politics, and wastes its energy on sophisticated theoretical analyses of the significance of current events.” Its adherents “have permitted cultural politics to supplant real politics, and have collaborated with the Right in making cultural issues central to the public debate.”

He also wrote...... pretty accurately in my opinion:

If more Leftists saw themselves as part of that history, with all its achievements, they might continue to lament that “America is not a morally pure country,” but might better understand that “no country ever has been or ever will be,” and that no country will ever have “a morally pure, homogeneous Left” to bring about social justice.

Helix · Jan 19, 2018

George Washington called it :

George Washington said:
However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

.........

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796

sounds pretty familiar.

D_NATURED · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
He is absolutely correct about why people are angry. We've overtaxed and stolen from the productive members of society too much, and they're not going to stand for it anymore. What I take issue with is the way he phrased that last part. Many of the "gains" of black and brown Americans have been nothing more than aggression against whites in the form of minority business loans, affirmative action, diversity quotas, and the like. He seems sad that this system is coming to an end. I see nothing to be sad about.

How ironic that the "productive" members of society have given their votes to a guy who continues to bill his business gambling debts to the American people. Don't kid yourself that it's about productivity. Trump considers trust fund babies to be productive and just gave them a trillion and a half of our money. Hey, at least he enjoys screwing the poor, though. That certainly earns him some GOP points.

iliveonramen · Jan 19, 2018

RetiredUSN said:
Your Mr. Richard Rorty?

Hyperbole at best.

Come see us when gays and people of color are stripped of their rights!

And, bye the way.......he also said this:

This Left is more likely to participate in a public shaming than to lobby for a new law; it is more likely to mobilize to occupy a park or shut down a freeway than to register voters. It “exaggerates the importance of philosophy for politics, and wastes its energy on sophisticated theoretical analyses of the significance of current events.” Its adherents “have permitted cultural politics to supplant real politics, and have collaborated with the Right in making cultural issues central to the public debate.”

He also wrote...... pretty accurately in my opinion:

If more Leftists saw themselves as part of that history, with all its achievements, they might continue to lament that “America is not a morally pure country,” but might better understand that “no country ever has been or ever will be,” and that no country will ever have “a morally pure, homogeneous Left” to bring about social justice.

Pretty accurate as well.

He seems to of had the pulse of the nation.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

Helix said:
George Washington called it :

sounds pretty familiar.

George Washington said:
However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

How does this apply to Trump and not to the Democratic Party which has used massive 3rd world immigration to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government? Look at what the election results would have been in 2012 if only whites voted, which was essentially the electorate prior to 1965, when our immigration system was revolutionized.

Without that immigration, the Democratic party as we know it today would not exist. Immigration has been used for decades to subvert the will of Americans, and the worst part about it is that this immigration was never even voted for by Americans, and these were the quotes that were used to justify that act.

Lyndon Johnson said:
"This bill we sign today is not a revolutionary bill. It does not affect the lives of millions. It will not restructure the shape of our daily lives."

Claiborne Pell said:
Contrary to the opinions of some of the misinformed, this legislation does not open the floodgates.

We were lied to, and the result is that Americans are being dispossessed of the country that their ancestors built.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
He is absolutely correct about why people are angry. We've overtaxed and stolen from the productive members of society too much, and they're not going to stand for it anymore.

Yeah, I understand. But I don't think that's not the problem Rorty is bringing up here. The problem with Trump supporters is not as much that they are "productive members of society" who are being "stolen from", but they feel like they are not being helped or protected enough. They feel abandoned, forgotten. But they may be too proud to admit it, and so these sentiments are being couched in other terms. They have a government that they feel is not protecting them enough, not creating enough of a safety net for them. The government seems more concerned about all the women and brown and black people and minorities and gays and all that other riff raff. What about us, they seem to be asking. That's why they want the government to protect their jobs against private companies taking them overseas. That's not very "free market" and "leaving us alone". That's why, even though they want to get rid of Obamacare because they think it's helping the brown people disproportionately, they don't want Medicare and SS touched. That's where all those Tea Party placards "Stop socialized medicine and keep your hands off my Medicare" were coming from. I'm pretty sure that's what he means when he says:

Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers - themselves desparately afraid of being downsized - are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The non-suburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for - someone willing to assure them that once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen and post modernist professors will no longer be calling the shots...

That's why there was this paradoxical split of the same demographics between Trump and Sanders.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

D_NATURED said:
How ironic that the "productive" members of society have given their votes to a guy who continues to bill his business gambling debts to the American people. Don't kid yourself that it's about productivity. Trump considers trust fund babies to be productive and just gave them a trillion and a half of our money. Hey, at least he enjoys screwing the poor, though. That certainly earns him some GOP points.

Middle class Americans got a massive tax cut by the doubling of the standard deduction and increase in the child tax credit. Was it a perfect bill? By no means. I'm sure you would rather have had a single payer healthcare system, but you weren't going to slam Obama over the Affordable Care Act.

You have to understand what middle class Americans are upset about and why they voted for Trump. If you can't figure it out, then watch as Democrats continue to lose elections and the GOP turns significantly right.

Helix · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
How does this apply to Trump and not to the Democratic Party which has used massive 3rd world immigration to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government? Look at what the election results would have been in 2012 if only whites voted, which was essentially the electorate prior to 1965, when our immigration system was revolutionized.

Without that immigration, the Democratic party as we know it today would not exist. Immigration has been used for decades to subvert the will of Americans, and the worst part about it is that this immigration was never even voted for by Americans, and these were the quotes that were used to justify that act.

We were lied to, and the result is that Americans are being dispossessed of the country that their ancestors built.

read my post again for comprehension.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
Yeah, I understand. But I don't think that's not the problem Rorty is bringing up here. The problem with Trump supporters is not as much that they are "productive members of society" who are being "stolen from", but they feel like they are not being helped or protected enough. They feel abandoned, forgotten. But they may be too proud to admit it, and so these sentiments are being couched in other terms. They have a government that they feel is not protecting them enough, not creating enough of a safety net for them. The government seems more concerned about all the women and brown and black people and minorities and gays and all that other riff raff. What about us, they seem to be asking. That's why they want the government to protect their jobs against private companies taking them overseas. That's not very "free market" and "leaving us alone". That's why, even though they want to get rid of Obamacare because they think it's helping the brown people disproportionately, they don't want Medicare and SS touched. That's where all those Tea Party placards "Stop socialized medicine and keep your hands off my Medicare" were coming from.

That's why there was this paradoxical split of the same demographics between Trump and Sanders.

In their minds those aren't protections, but rather programs that they've paid into and want their money back. They don't seem generally to want special programs to help them out. They want a level playing field and are disgusted by special treatment for pet minorities. The fact is that middle class whites have been robbed now for decades, and the shame and belligerence coming from the left for the past few years came to a tipping point. Telling the people that you're robbing that they're privileged and racist isn't going to go over well, and you've elicited a reaction. I don't think that you're going to be able to stop this.

iliveonramen · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
How does this apply to Trump and not to the Democratic Party which has used massive 3rd world immigration to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government? Look at what the election results would have been in 2012 if only whites voted, which was essentially the electorate prior to 1965, when our immigration system was revolutionized.

Without that immigration, the Democratic party as we know it today would not exist. Immigration has been used for decades to subvert the will of Americans, and the worst part about it is that this immigration was never even voted for by Americans, and these were the quotes that were used to justify that act.

We were lied to, and the result is that Americans are being dispossessed of the country that their ancestors built.

Lots of whites are only a generation or two removed from immigrants. Non-white blacks have lineages as long or longer than whites in this country. It was whites that have been in charge for the majority of the this countries history and they were more than happy to have non-whites in to provide cheap labor. Any issue you have should be towards those that benefit from large amounts of cheaper labor not the people just trying to get a job.

RetiredUSN · Jan 19, 2018

iliveonramen said:
Pretty accurate as well.

He seems to of had the pulse of the nation.

I remember when I first came across Mr. Rorty and his writings back in 1981 in the USS Fulton AS-11 ship's library. This 10th grade dropout needed a thesaurus at the time to understand what the hell he was saying, but he left a lasting impression on me.

My ideal political fantasy would be sitting in a bar listening to Murrow, Buckley, and Rorty all going at it for a few hours.

They all had a finger on the pulse of the nation.

iliveonramen · Jan 19, 2018

RetiredUSN said:
I remember when I first came across Mr. Rorty and his writings back in 1981 in the USS Fulton AS-11 ship's library. This 10th grade dropout needed a thesaurus at the time to understand what the hell he was saying, but he left a lasting impression on me.

My ideal political fantasy would be sitting in a bar listening to Murrow, Buckley, and Rorty all going at it for a few hours.

They all had a finger on the pulse of the nation.

I'd like to be in that bar as well. I used to get the National Review while Bukley still ran it at the end of his career.

You should check out Felix Zulauf. He's a Swiss hedgefund manager and he's got the gift of recognizing global trends. He's a pretty remarkable guy as well and as a macro economic guy he looks at politics, economics, social movements etc.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

iliveonramen said:
Lots of whites are only a generation or two removed from immigrants.

Typically from white immigrants. We can't just lump everyone together and assume that they're a monolith.

Non-white blacks have lineages as long or longer than whites in this country.

And those blacks will also say that their ancestors shouldn't have been brought here in the first place. Most would agree about that.

It was whites that have been in charge for the majority of the this countries history and they were more than happy to have non-whites in to provide cheap labor. Any issue you have should be towards those that benefit from large amounts of cheaper labor not the people just trying to get a job.

Why do you assume that I don't have an issue with them? I've been vocal about my criticism of large corporations which advocate for these policies which displace middle class Americans.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
How does this apply to Trump and not to the Democratic Party which has used massive 3rd world immigration to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government? Look at what the election results would have been in 2012 if only whites voted, which was essentially the electorate prior to 1965, when our immigration system was revolutionized.

Without that immigration, the Democratic party as we know it today would not exist. Immigration has been used for decades to subvert the will of Americans, and the worst part about it is that this immigration was never even voted for by Americans, and these were the quotes that were used to justify that act.

We were lied to, and the result is that Americans are being dispossessed of the country that their ancestors built.

Who are their ancestors? The English? The Irish? The Scots? Germans? Italians? Poles? At each point, each of these groups were fiercely alienated and resented as "outsiders".

If you think there was ever an original American "ancestor", you are pursuing a chimera, a mirage.

And that was never the vision of the founding fathers of this country for the nation they founded:

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges.”
-George Washington

"I had always hoped that this land might become a safe & agreeable Asylum to the virtuous & persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong."
-George Washington

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists."
_George Washington, talking about what kind of people he was looking for to work on his estate in Mt. Vernon, VA

As you can see: no limitations to just the English, or Irish, or Welsh, or German, or Dutch, or by religion, or by skin color. Judging only by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
In their minds those aren't protections, but rather programs that they've paid into and want their money back. They don't seem generally to want special programs to help them out. They want a level playing field and are disgusted by special treatment for pet minorities.

A level playing field would mean all their jobs would be going to Mexico and China and Bangladesh right now. That's what the free markets are demanding. Is that really what they want? Seems to me they want government to step in and protect them.

As far as not wanting special programs to help them out: they only want the government to help them, not "others". But that's shortsighted and incorrect, and it blows up in their face. We are all Americans, and government's job is to provide some basic safety and security for its citizens. Here's what happens when they don't appreciate that fact:

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

This racist worldview and mindset is just a social construct, and it's as dysfunctional as the caste system in India, or the idea that witches should be burned at the stake, or trial by ordeal. These are all just weird, contingent, and dysfunctional social constructs that creates a lot of unnecessary pain and injustice. As we learn more and know better, we need to start putting these behind us. I know sometimes some cultural beliefs are so deeply ingrained that it can actually seem like they have a reality outside of our own cultural beliefs, that they are part of reality itself. It takes a huge amount of open mindedness and courage to put these ideas behind us. But it can be done.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
A level playing field would mean all their jobs would be going to Mexico and China and Bangladesh right now. That's what the free markets are demanding. Is that really what they want?

But they haven't, that's not to say that we should be doing nothing about trade agreements. Still, these are two separate issues, and there is no justification for special programs for minorities in this country.

As far as not wanting special programs to help them out: they only want the government to help them, not "others". But that's shortsighted and incorrect, and it blows up in their face. We are all Americans, and government's job is to provide some basic safety and security for its citizens. Here's what happens when they don't appreciate that fact:

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

This racist worldview and mindset is just a social construct, and it's as dysfunctional as the caste system in India. They are both just weird, contingent, and dysfunctional social constructs that creates a lot of unnecessary pain and injustice.

Thanks for the anecdotal evidence. Meanwhile, in our current system we're not allowed to talk about the drawbacks of multiculturalism or the major flaws in many minority communities. Our current system is propped up on ignorance. That's not sustainable.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
But they haven't, that's not to say that we should be doing nothing about trade agreements. Still, these are two separate issues, and there is no justification for special programs for minorities in this country.

The trade agreements are restrictive on the free market. Without restrictions, the natural thing to happen is for all the jobs to go overseas. Trump wants to use government power to restrict the free market to protect middle America. Come on, surely this is not controversial stuff to you.

Meanwhile, in our current system we're not allowed to talk about the drawbacks of multiculturalism or the major flaws in many minority communities. Our current system is propped up on ignorance. That's not sustainable.

You can, as long as you do it realizing that culture is not a genetic and immutable trait. The Norwegians that Trump wants to bring over so badly were, not too long ago, the most feared looters, thieves, and rapists of the world. The terrorists of their day. Now they are among the most peaceful and tolerant nations of the world, and cradle-to-grave welfare states. So if culture is genetic, it shouldn't have changed THIS much.

The problem is not that people like you criticize culture, but that you see it as something innate and unchangeable. You can't distinguish between people and culture, which is a very fluid and contingent thing, and always changing. You can never freeze it. People who think that way about culture have not studied it or understand it very well.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
The trade agreements are restrictive on the free market. Without restrictions, the natural thing to happen is for all the jobs to go overseas. Trump wants to use government power to restrict the free market to protect middle America. Come on, surely this is not controversial stuff to you.

I'm not a free market dogmaist to the point that I won't allow any role for the government to protect its own citizens.

You can, as long as you do it realizing that culture is not a genetic and immutable trait. The Norwegians that Trump wants to bring over so badly were, not too long ago, the most feared looters, thieves, and rapists of the world. The terrorists of their day. Now they are among the most peaceful and tolerant nations of the world, and cradle-to-grave welfare states. So if culture is genetic, it shouldn't have changed THIS much.

The problem is not that people like you criticize culture, but that you see it as something innate and unchangeable. You can't distinguish between people and culture, which is a very fluid and contingent thing, and always changing. You can never freeze it. People who think that way about culture have not studied it or understand it very well.

Oh? Perhaps you're a little naive about how quickly culture changes. There were problems even with European immigration back in the day, and it took generations for those problems to really resolve themselves. A little break in immigration to fix our current issues sounds pretty reasonable to me.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
I'm not a free market dogmaist to the point that I won't allow any role for the government to protect its own citizens.

Yes, I understand, and that is the point I am trying to make. The issue for you is not being left free of Government intervention or help. It is only for government intervention and help if you have certain shade of skin pigmentation below a certain level. You have made it very clear now you agree with me.

phattonez · Jan 19, 2018

ataraxia said:
Yes, I understand, and that is the point I am trying to make. The issue for you is not being left free of Government intervention or help. It is only for government intervention and help if you have certain shade of skin pigmentation below a certain level. You have made it very clear now you agree with me.

I have no problem with our government favoring its own citizens over foreigners.

ataraxia · Jan 19, 2018

phattonez said:
I have no problem with our government favoring its own citizens over foreigners.

Yes, and by foreigners you have made it clear that you mean people with shade of skin lighter than a certain degree of pigmentation you have in mind. Would you consider a naturalized African immigrant to be one of us? I am pretty sure not.

Prescient prophecy about the rise ofTrumpism from an American philosopher

ataraxia

Chomsky

Social Democrat

trblmkr

phattonez

Catholic

RetiredUSN

Helix

D_NATURED

iliveonramen

Pontificator

phattonez

Catholic

ataraxia

phattonez

Catholic

Helix

phattonez

Catholic

iliveonramen

Pontificator

RetiredUSN

iliveonramen

Pontificator

phattonez

Catholic

ataraxia

ataraxia

phattonez

Catholic

ataraxia

phattonez

Catholic

ataraxia

phattonez

Catholic

ataraxia