How You're Not Really Getting a Tax Cut

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

calamity said:

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

Click to expand...

"But, wait," some Trumpian bathwater drinker will say. "The brackets went down.

Ok. Yippie. The brackets went down. But, what does that mean for someone earning, say, less than $100K?

Well...look at it like this. Back when that $10,000 married couple's exemption I mentioned above was not taxed at all, I paid noting on it. Now? Well, now I get to pay 10% tax on it. So, I lose a G-spot off the bottom, right off the bat. Yeay! Winning. That's make me vote for Trump :roll:

Don't believe me?

Well, let's look at the lower two brackets. Anything up to 10K is taxed at 10%, then we see a 15% everything thereafter up to $40. That's not bad...you might say. If you forget about them stealing that $10K worth of exemptions from ya, that is. :lol:

Back in the day, yesterday, the married couple itemizing with $24K in deductions paid no tax at all on their first $34K. How much do they pay now? Well, take 34 minus 24. That equals 10, for those not catching on. That's 10 as in $10K, for those really not catching on. The tax on that first $10K? You guessed it---$1,000. So, a couple earning exactly $34K with $34K in deductions actually just received a....yep--TAX INCREASE.

Well, fear not. No one really has $34 in deductions if they only earn $34K. Laws no. But, it does not take a genius to see that the couple is already $1000 behind on their first $34,000 earned. Ya follow?


Let's look higher up. Will I make that $1000 back? And, how much do I have to earn to make it back?

It's gonna be horrible!!! People are gonna be screwed!!! The economy is going to crumble!!


Some people will pay more under this plan but, based on the current guidance available and a few quick calculations, most people will come out ahead or even. See, you forgot to mention that tax rates were decreased and brackets were expanded so those changes offset a good bit of the additional tax people would owe.

calamity said:

"But, wait," some Trumpian bathwater drinker will say. "The brackets went down.

Ok. Yippie. The brackets went down. But, what does that mean for someone earning, say, less than $100K?

Well...look at it like this. Back when that $10,000 married couple's exemption I mentioned above was not taxed at all, I paid noting on it. Now? Well, now I get to pay 10% tax on it. So, I lose a G-spot off the bottom, right off the bat. Yeay! Winning. That's make me vote for Trump :roll:

Don't believe me?

Well, let's look at the lower two brackets. Anything up to 10K is taxed at 10%, then we see a 15% everything thereafter up to $40. That's not bad...you might say. If you forget about them stealing that $10K worth of exemptions from ya, that is. :lol:

Back in the day, yesterday, the married couple itemizing with $24K in deductions paid no tax at all on their first $34K. How much do they pay now? Well, take 34 minus 24. That equals 10, for those not catching on. That's 10 as in $10K, for those really not catching on. The tax on that first $10K? You guessed it---$1,000. So, a couple earning exactly $34K with $34K in deductions actually just received a....yep--TAX INCREASE.

Well, fear not. No one really has $34 in deductions if they only earn $34K. Laws no. But, it does not take a genius to see that the couple is already $1000 behind on their first $34,000 earned. Ya follow?


Let's look higher up. Will I make that $1000 back? And, how much do I have to earn to make it back?

Click to expand...

OK, it took me a minute to do that math. And, it took a little longer to figure out a way to articulate what I found. So, bear with me.

First, the ground work. So, Let me clarify the brackets. And, I'll stick with married people filing joint, use round rough numbers for simplicity and end it at 1/2 million since hardly anyone here is making more than that anyway.
2017: 10% for $0 to $20K; 15% for $20K to $75K; 25% for $75K to $150K; 28% for $150K to $250K, and 33% for $250K to $500K
2018: 10% for $0 to $20K; 12% for $20K to $75K; 22% for $75K to $150K; 24% for $150K to $250K, and 32% for $250K to $500K

Well, that is a cut. But not for that bottom $10K. It stayed the same. And it's that first $10K which they overcharged us $1000 on which we now have to fight mightily to earn back with those small marginal gains of 2% here and 3% there.

So, what do we gain as we chug up the tax brackets? Well, on that money earned up to $75K, we don't do so well.
2017: $75-35=40. $20K taxed at 10% + $20K taxed at 15% = $2K + $3K = $5k
2018: $75-25=50. $20K taxed at 10% + $30K taxed at 12% = $2K + $3.6K = $5.6K

Hey! That's a tax increase!!! Uh, yep. If you and the old lady earn $75K, Trumpie cost you 600 Buckeroos.

Well, ****! What if I earn $150K?
2017: $150-35=115. $20K taxed at 10% + $55K taxed at 15% + $40K taxed at 25% = $2k + $8K + $10K = $20K
2018: $150-25=125. $20K taxed at 10% + $55K taxed at 12% + $50K taxed at 22% = $2K + $6.5K + $11K = $19.5K

Yeay! I got a $500 tax cut. Trump da man.

Really? Is cheering that POS worth $500 to me when I am pulling in a buck-fity? I don't think so.

Obviously after $150K, you start reaping some rewards. Yeay for all of us making that kind of jack. Boo for all the suckers making less than $125K.

Lutherf said:

It's gonna be horrible!!! People are gonna be screwed!!! The economy is going to crumble!!


Some people will pay more under this plan but, based on the current guidance available and a few quick calculations, most people will come out ahead or even. See, you forgot to mention that tax rates were decreased and brackets were expanded so those changes offset a good bit of the additional tax people would owe.

Click to expand...

:roll:

calamity said:

"But, wait," some Trumpian bathwater drinker will say. "The brackets went down.

Ok. Yippie. The brackets went down. But, what does that mean for someone earning, say, less than $100K?

Well...look at it like this. Back when that $10,000 married couple's exemption I mentioned above was not taxed at all, I paid noting on it. Now? Well, now I get to pay 10% tax on it. So, I lose a G-spot off the bottom, right off the bat. Yeay! Winning. That's make me vote for Trump :roll:

Don't believe me?

Well, let's look at the lower two brackets. Anything up to 10K is taxed at 10%, then we see a 15% everything thereafter up to $40. That's not bad...you might say. If you forget about them stealing that $10K worth of exemptions from ya, that is. :lol:

Back in the day, yesterday, the married couple itemizing with $24K in deductions paid no tax at all on their first $34K. How much do they pay now? Well, take 34 minus 24. That equals 10, for those not catching on. That's 10 as in $10K, for those really not catching on. The tax on that first $10K? You guessed it---$1,000. So, a couple earning exactly $34K with $34K in deductions actually just received a....yep--TAX INCREASE.

Well, fear not. No one really has $34 in deductions if they only earn $34K. Laws no. But, it does not take a genius to see that the couple is already $1000 behind on their first $34,000 earned. Ya follow?


Let's look higher up. Will I make that $1000 back? And, how much do I have to earn to make it back?

Click to expand...

Told ya'll.

calamity said:

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

Click to expand...

All this was disclosed in the numerous press conferences. Almost 70% of households don't itemize and the people that do itemize tend to be "rich". So, I'm guessing you'd support that. Are there some that do itemize and aren't rich? Sure. But the negative impact is far below the positive impact.

ksu_aviator said:

All this was disclosed in the numerous press conferences. Almost 70% of households don't itemize and the people that do itemize tend to be "rich". So, I'm guessing you'd support that. Are there some that do itemize and aren't rich? Sure. But the negative impact is far below the positive impact.

Click to expand...

Uh, no. But, I'm sure that Trumpian bath water tastes good.

If a couple under the age of 65 with no dependents made $75k in 2017 and had $24k in itemized deductions they would pay more in 2018 (assuming all the facts remain the same) than they would in 2017. The difference would be roughly $250. However, it would be HIGHLY unusual for a couple to have itemized deductions that are 1/3 of their gross income. It's possible but it would be WAY outside the norm. As was mentioned earlier, most people will come out ahead with this tax bill.

Lutherf said:

If a couple under the age of 65 with no dependents made $75k in 2017 and had $24k in itemized deductions they would pay more in 2018 (assuming all the facts remain the same) than they would in 2017. The difference would be roughly $250. However, it would be HIGHLY unusual for a couple to have itemized deductions that are 1/3 of their gross income. It's possible but it would be WAY outside the norm. As was mentioned earlier, most people will come out ahead with this tax bill.

Click to expand...

10% church tithe plus state and local taxes plus interest on home and student loans plus some major medical expenses. $24K isn't a lot of money.

Lutherf said:

It's gonna be horrible!!! People are gonna be screwed!!! The economy is going to crumble!!


Some people will pay more under this plan but, based on the current guidance available and a few quick calculations, most people will come out ahead or even. See, you forgot to mention that tax rates were decreased and brackets were expanded so those changes offset a good bit of the additional tax people would owe.

Click to expand...

Except for those who it doesn't.

calamity said:

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

Click to expand...

So, in summary wages are starting to rise and taxes are going down. Cool, thanks for he edumacated breakdown.

ksu_aviator said:

All this was disclosed in the numerous press conferences. Almost 70% of households don't itemize and the people that do itemize tend to be "rich". So, I'm guessing you'd support that. Are there some that do itemize and aren't rich? Sure. But the negative impact is far below the positive impact.

Click to expand...

Believe me I am not rich....but have itemized all my working life. I'm reading your words to state that my paying more in taxes is less of an impact to me than the impact of you paying less?? Do I get a Thank You card...or a gift?

Truth be told, the tax cut could have been done just the same but leaving the old deductibles. Or capping them at some reasonable level, maybe 25,000 instead of 10,000.

But the plight of the unfortunate 20% was never a consideration.

BlackMatters said:

So, in summary wages are starting to rise and taxes are going down. Cool, thanks for he edumacated breakdown.

Click to expand...

Uh, I just showed you that taxes are going up for you. But, hey. Horses and water.

JMR said:

Believe me I am not rich....but have itemized all my working life. I'm reading your words to state that my paying more in taxes is less of an impact to me than the impact of you paying less?? Do I get a Thank You card...or a gift?

Truth be told, the tax cut could have been done just the same but leaving the old deductibles. Or capping them at some reasonable level, maybe 25,000 instead of 10,000.

But the plight of the unfortunate 20% was never a consideration.

Click to expand...

It says you are liberal. Shouldn't you want to pay more in taxes? Isn't that what your side wants? Stop complaining when you get what you ask for.

ksu_aviator said:

It says you are liberal. Shouldn't you want to pay more in taxes? Isn't that what your side wants? Stop complaining when you get what you ask for.

Click to expand...

I will duly note that ksu_aviator is a jackass not worth my attention.

JMR said:

I will duly note that ksu_aviator is a jackass not worth my attention.

Click to expand...

JMR book of redefined words:

Jackass [jak-as]

Noun

1. a male donkey

2. an individual that uses logic and reasoning with no regard for feelings.

ksu_aviator said:

It says you are liberal. Shouldn't you want to pay more in taxes? Isn't that what your side wants? Stop complaining when you get what you ask for.

Click to expand...

This response is irrelevant because it doesn't address the point his statement was making.

However, as a liberal myself I do have a strong stance on improving and protecting our social programs which, depending on your tax bracket, means paying a little more in taxes to increase quality of living.

LunaRose said:

This response is irrelevant because it doesn't address the point his statement was making.

However, as a liberal myself I do have a strong stance on improving and protecting our social programs which, depending on your tax bracket, means paying a little more in taxes to increase quality of living.

Click to expand...

Ah...so there should be increased taxes. Just not your taxes.

ksu_aviator said:

Ah...so there should be increased taxes. Just not your taxes.

Click to expand...

This doesn't make sense....Where did I say that?

JMR was merely stating that with his salary he is not really receiving a tax cut...So his point was that most, if not all, middle class Americans are not seeing this GREAT tax cut, which you and the rest of the Trumpsters are bumping your chests over.

My taxes are going up. Boo hoo. Most people I know who have less income than me will have their taxes cut. Granted I'm in one of the high state tax states, but realistically these are the only states that matter. Plus, most studies are saying that most people will get a tax cut. I'll take their math over Calamity math tbqh.

calamity said:

10% church tithe plus state and local taxes plus interest on home and student loans plus some major medical expenses. $24K isn't a lot of money.

Click to expand...

$24k is a lot for someone making $75k gross. Before they tithe or pay a mortgage they'll have $5700 come off for FICA. Let's say they managed to get a house for $250k and have property taxes of $5k/yr. Their PITI is going to be in the ballpark of $1700/mo but that includes principle so, assuming they're early in the loan, they'll have $10k interest and $5k property tax to deduct a with little over $20k in outlays. That puts them at $49k walking around money but, as you say, they tithe 10% so now they're down to $41 or $42k. Their itemized deductions would be mortgage interest, tithing and property tax. That would come out to $22k which in in the ballpark you laid out.

Out of what's left they have to pay for utilities and transportation. Let's say they're economical and their car payments are $500 a month and so are utilities. That will bring them down to $30k. They still need food, clothing, car insurance, general household maintenance and we haven't even talked about income tax to be withheld. That spare $30k is going to disappear quickly ESPECIALLY if they are paying for health insurance. This couple would be flat broke, living paycheck to paycheck with noting going into retirement. Are those people out there? Sure. A couple of them will sit across my desk every year. They live off credit cards and dig their hole deeper every year.

calamity said:

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

Click to expand...

Good news! Hope you send this to the CBO and have them take back their assessment that this un-tax-cut will create an additional $1.5 trillion deficit.

calamity said:

At least most of you won't.

The Bold print sayeth: The Standard Deduction doubles. So, (simple math in thousands): old deduction of $6 turns into $12 for singles and $12 turns into $24 for married couples.

Sounds good. Right?

Well, not so fast. Fine print says you lose your personal exemption. So, bye bye $5 for singles and $10 for marrieds.

Ya with me so far?

Take 12-5, and you get $7. The old deduction was $6. So, that's a whopping net gain on this "your deductions doubled" rhetoric of $1. Talk about a scam.

Marrieds do a little better, but not much. Take 24-10 and you get 14. The old deduction was $12. So, yeah, marrieds gain, you guessed it, $2 in deductions.

It gets worse. Say you itemize. A married couple deducting $24K in interest, state tax, medical, whatever. Well, in the yesterday days that couple used to get that $24K plus the additional $10K exemption for a nice solid total $34K deduction. Well, not anymore they don't. They now lose $10K.


Suckers born every minute.

Click to expand...

It's a fairly radical change in weaning people off itemized deductions. There is always going to be winners and losers with a change like this. Most people will still pay less taxes with the new law so they outweigh the losers and it sounds like you'd rather more people pay higher taxes so some can pay lower taxes.

ksu_aviator said:

Ah...so there should be increased taxes. Just not your taxes.

Click to expand...

I don't mind my taxes increasing.. as long as we go back to the 1950's tax brackets, adjusted for inflation.

Lutherf said:

$24k is a lot for someone making $75k gross. Before they tithe or pay a mortgage they'll have $5700 come off for FICA. Let's say they managed to get a house for $250k and have property taxes of $5k/yr. Their PITI is going to be in the ballpark of $1700/mo but that includes principle so, assuming they're early in the loan, they'll have $10k interest and $5k property tax to deduct a with little over $20k in outlays. That puts them at $49k walking around money but, as you say, they tithe 10% so now they're down to $41 or $42k. Their itemized deductions would be mortgage interest, tithing and property tax. That would come out to $22k which in in the ballpark you laid out.

Out of what's left they have to pay for utilities and transportation. Let's say they're economical and their car payments are $500 a month and so are utilities. That will bring them down to $30k. They still need food, clothing, car insurance, general household maintenance and we haven't even talked about income tax to be withheld. That spare $30k is going to disappear quickly ESPECIALLY if they are paying for health insurance. This couple would be flat broke, living paycheck to paycheck with noting going into retirement. Are those people out there? Sure. A couple of them will sit across my desk every year. They live off credit cards and dig their hole deeper every year.

Click to expand...

Well said!