• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

When is government legitimate?

haymarket said:
One key factor has to be this: is the process and mechanism which installs the people in our government designed to produce a person who everyone can see was elected fairly and freely and openly in a manner consistent with both the law and other important principles of our society?

In the case of the Electoral College we have a mechanism from the 1700's which contains a fatal flaw in that it produces a LEGAL winner but can also produce a winner who was NOT the choice of the American people and thus violates the principle of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. When the two produce two different results, it by its very nature opens the door to a claim that the EC winner is not legitimate.

In addition, over the last century the sacred principle of one person/one vote has taken hold with the additional caveat that no vote should count any more than any other vote with all voters being equal. The EC mechanism badly violates that as some voters have three to four times the weight behind their votes than other voters.

These two inherent flaws in the EC system produce the claim of illegitimacy and will continue to do that until the EC is abolished.
Click to expand...

The electoral college is a necessary method of keeping the country united. The fact is that different regions have different needs and priorities. Without the electoral college, the rural and middle states would have no say in Presidential elections which would eventually cause them to rebel against the costal states. The last election may have had a small amount of people who voted for the losing party, but the winning party represented about 80% of the land mass.

The electoral college has done an outstanding job of keeping the peace in this country for over 200 years and should not be eliminated over some sour grapes of people who do not understand the system.
 
jdog said:
The electoral college is a necessary method of keeping the country united.
Click to expand...

Then it is failing in that job having delivered us into the madness of a delusional narcissist living in his own dangerous reality.

The electoral college has done an outstanding job of keeping the peace in this country for over 200 years and should not be eliminated over some sour grapes of people who do not understand the system.
Click to expand...

I taught the ins and outs of that system for well over thirty years my friend. And have lobbied for its abolishment for a long time besides that. It is vain self congratulatory conceit for you to pretend that those who disagree with you "do not understand the system" for we understand the system all too well and know its shortcomings and its betrayal of American principles.
 
haymarket said:
One key factor has to be this: is the process and mechanism which installs the people in our government designed to produce a person who everyone can see was elected fairly and freely and openly in a manner consistent with both the law and other important principles of our society?

In the case of the Electoral College we have a mechanism from the 1700's which contains a fatal flaw in that it produces a LEGAL winner but can also produce a winner who was NOT the choice of the American people and thus violates the principle of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. When the two produce two different results, it by its very nature opens the door to a claim that the EC winner is not legitimate.

In addition, over the last century the sacred principle of one person/one vote has taken hold with the additional caveat that no vote should count any more than any other vote with all voters being equal. The EC mechanism badly violates that as some voters have three to four times the weight behind their votes than other voters.

These two inherent flaws in the EC system produce the claim of illegitimacy and will continue to do that until the EC is abolished.
Click to expand...

Incorrect...

If it was a LEGAL and/or LAWFUL election it is by definition LEGITIMATE.
 
Government is, for the most part, not overly concerned with legitimacy but rather with capturing, exercising and maintaining power. Government may pay lip-service to notions of legitimacy, but when push comes to shove, those in control of government will use graft, corruption, gerrymandering, electoral fraud, misappropriated judicial authority, coercion and brute force to maintain their power. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder and what one group may consider perfectly legitimate, another may see as completely illegitimate and as a fundamental disqualifier for a government. It is possible for a government to remain within agreed upon powers, checks and balances and still to act illegitimately and conversely it is possible for a government to step across a mandate or limit to power and still remain legitimate in the eyes of the governed.

The notion that governments and those who control it are concerned with legitimacy is, in my opinion, deeply flawed and is very dangerous thinking. Power creates its own warped legitimacy and also affords those in power with the resources and mechanisms necessary to condition the populace into accepting new flavours and versions of legitimacy which would likely be otherwise rejected by the populace.

Government is a leviathan, a state-run juggernaut which serves its own interests far more than serving principles or the best interests of the people. That is why it is necessary to constrain and challenge the power of the state at every turn and to do so actively, rather than relying on old documents and corruptible jurists to do it for you. A constitution resides in the hearts and minds of the governed and not in marble archives and lofty court rooms. The people, their education (not schooling, but their whole education) and their willingness to topple would-be tyrants is the bone and sinew of constitutional legitimacy. The hallowed and yellowed parchment only serves as a guide or a reminder of the principles which the street must insist upon and, if necessary, enforce upon their would-be rulers in government, if they are to remain legitimately governed and free.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
Evilroddy said:
Government is, for the most part not overly concerned with legitimacy but rather with capturing, exercising and maintaining power. Government may pay lip-service to notions of legitimacy but when push comes to shove those in control of government will use graft, corruption, gerrymandering, electoral fraud, misappropriated judicial authority, coercion and brute force to maintain their power. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder and what one group may consider perfectly legitimate another may see as completely illegitimate and as a disqualifier for a government. It is possible for a government to remain within agreed upon powers, checks and balances and still to act illegitimately and conversely it is possible for a government to step across a mandate or limit to power and still remain legitimate.

The notion that governments and those who control it are concerned with legitimacy is, in my opinion, deeply flawed and dangerous thinking. Power creates its own warped legitimacy and also affords those in power with the resources and mechanisms necessary to condition the populace into accepting new flavours and versions of legitimacy which would likely be otherwise rejected by the populace.

Government is a leviathan, a state juggernaut which serves its own interests far more than serving principles or the best interests of the people. That is why it is necessary to constrain and challenge the power of the state at every turn and to do so actively, rather than relying on old documents and corruptible jurists to do it for you. A constitution resides in the hearts and minds of the governed and not in marble archives and lofty court rooms. The people, their education (not schooling, but their whole education) and their willingness to topple tyrants is the bone and sinew of constitutional legitimacy and the hallowed and yellowed parchment only serves as a guide or a reminder of the principles which the street must insist upon and if necessary enforce upon their would-be rulers in government if they are to remain legitimately governed.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Well said... and perfectly illustrated by the Trump supporters who pretend that legitimate is anybody legally elected - no matter how flawed the process or what other basic American principles were violated by that process.
 
A cream puff over a necromancer trades baseball cards with the inexorably self-actualized ribbon. Indeed, a placid dissident learns a hard lesson from the boy. The somnambulist behind the menagé à trois lazily sanitizes a cream puff over the fetishist, and a tenor defined by the piroshki brainwashes the haunch toward a bicep. The Interloper and I took a carelessly polite amour-propre (with a debutante, the maestro related to a labyrinth, a few dissidents, and a taxidermist related to some swamp) to arrive at a state of intimacy where we can barely ignore our coward.
 
jdog said:
What are the factors that make a government in a system of self determination legitimate?
If we truly live in a country where the people are free and enjoy the liberty we sing about in our National Anthems, then we must maintain or rights to self determination and our status of masters over our government.

What factors today support or erode our rights to self determination and the legitimacy of our government?
Click to expand...

When is a thread legitimate?
 
haymarket said:
Well said... and perfectly illustrated by the Trump supporters who pretend that legitimate is anybody legally elected - no matter how flawed the process or what other basic American principles were violated by that process.
Click to expand...

What is the definition of LEGITIMATE?
 
haymarket said:
Then it is failing in that job having delivered us into the madness of a delusional narcissist living in his own dangerous reality.



I taught the ins and outs of that system for well over thirty years my friend. And have lobbied for its abolishment for a long time besides that. It is vain self congratulatory conceit for you to pretend that those who disagree with you "do not understand the system" for we understand the system all too well and know its shortcomings and its betrayal of American principles.
Click to expand...

Liberalism is a terrible disease of the mind. It is the seed by which tyranny and the collapse of society via communism is fostered.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?
Click to expand...

There is a reason the Constitution is not taught. It threatens the establishment and the system of government purchased and owned by the rich. If the people understood the Constitution and the reasons why it constructed the way it was, it would be a great threat to the status quo. The establishment will do anything to stay in power.
 
Power corrupts 100% of the time, therefore given the chance, all govt at all levels is corruptible.
 
jdog said:
Liberalism is a terrible disease of the mind. It is the seed by which tyranny and the collapse of society via communism is fostered.
Click to expand...

What does that have opinion to do with my position on legitimacy in government?
 
haymarket said:
What does that have opinion to do with my position on legitimacy in government?
Click to expand...

You think Trump is the only narcissist to ever hold the office? I have news for you, all Presidents are narcissists. They are all mass murdering psychopath's who don't give a damn about the principals this country was founded on. The American people are far too ignorant to see this truth, and instead focus on their own likes or dislikes of the packaged personality the President acts out.
 
jdog said:
You think Trump is the only narcissist to ever hold the office? I have news for you, all Presidents are narcissists. They are all mass murdering psychopath's who don't give a damn about the principals this country was founded on. The American people are far too ignorant to see this truth, and instead focus on their own likes or dislikes of the packaged personality the President acts out.
Click to expand...

I would strongly disagree with your assessment of all the previous presidents we had.

Comparing small piles of crap to the largest pile of crap ever seen is not a defense that Trump is not crap.
 
jdog said:
There is a reason the Constitution is not taught. It threatens the establishment and the system of government purchased and owned by the rich. If the people understood the Constitution and the reasons why it constructed the way it was, it would be a great threat to the status quo. The establishment will do anything to stay in power.
Click to expand...

I agree. Since almost all of academia is now solidly in the left, sometimes extreme left, camp, there is no incentive or inspiration to teach Constitution except in the most cursory way. Certainly the great debates of the Founders and original intent is not part of modern day college curricula. Which is why so many of our friends on the left are ignorant of that and/or shrug it off as irrelevent and/or garbage put out by a bunch of old racist white guys.

And because of that, unless the conservatives regain control and restore some honest perspective--I think this is the last generation with the numbers that will be able to do that--our representative republic is pretty well doomed.
 
haymarket said:
I would strongly disagree with your assessment of all the previous presidents we had.

Comparing small piles of crap to the largest pile of crap ever seen is not a defense that Trump is not crap.
Click to expand...

You may disagree all you want, but that does not change the facts.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I agree. Since almost all of academia is now solidly in the left, sometimes extreme left, camp, there is no incentive or inspiration to teach Constitution except in the most cursory way. Certainly the great debates of the Founders and original intent is not part of modern day college curricula. Which is why so many of our friends on the left are ignorant of that and/or shrug it off as irrelevent and/or garbage put out by a bunch of old racist white guys.

And because of that, unless the conservatives regain control and restore some honest perspective--I think this is the last generation with the numbers that will be able to do that--our representative republic is pretty well doomed.
Click to expand...

I agree, but unfortunately the only real conservatives left are libertarians, and they are too few in number to change much.
 
jdog said:
The fact that all Presidents were psychopath's and criminals....
Click to expand...

I see no evidence you have presented to support such an all inclusive claim.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom