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Notice how the tax bill sailed through and the Democrats and media just kind of rolled over?

Verax

Disappointed in Trump
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If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.
 
If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.


They assume that if the R's do a tax law (Yet to be seen) that it will be so bad that everyone will know that it is bad and they will get rewarded for not being bad....You know, the failed Hillary argument.

But even if they are right this time folks might just care that they made no effort to stop the bad.
 
If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.

Agreed....But it is not about Democrats or Republicans....It is about the the very rich oligarchy happening and the rest of us poor smucks.
 
They assume that if the R's do a tax law (Yet to be seen) that it will be so bad that everyone will know that it is bad and they will get rewarded for not being bad....You know, the failed Hillary argument.

But even if they are right this time folks might just care that they made no effort to stop the bad.

Who is going to care? Left politicians for the most part talk tough but they are owned by the wealthy and act accordingly at the end of the day. As far as left wing voters are concerned about half of them support Clinton style third way and the other half are Bernie types. The Bernie types can't take on the other half of their party, their party leadership, the Republican party leadership, right-wing voters, both media blocks, and the wealthy.
 
Who is going to care? Left politicians for the most part talk tough but they are owned by the wealthy and act accordingly at the end of the day. As far as left wing voters are concerned about half of them support Clinton style third way and the other half are Bernie types. The Bernie types can't take on the other half of their party, their party leadership, the Republican party leadership, right-wing voters, both media blocks, and the wealthy.

Yep, divide and conquer....
 
Agreed....But it is not about Democrats or Republicans....It is about the the very rich oligarchy happening and the rest of us poor smucks.

The oligarchy may be at the top pulling the strings but is not without massive support. Republicans, both politicians and their constituents are ideologically concrete in their support of funneling money to the wealthy. Left wing politicians are almost as useless and bought. Left wing voters are split. It's shooting fish in a barrel.
 
Who is going to care? Left politicians for the most part talk tough but they are owned by the wealthy and act accordingly at the end of the day. As far as left wing voters are concerned about half of them support Clinton style third way and the other half are Bernie types. The Bernie types can't take on the other half of their party, their party leadership, the Republican party leadership, right-wing voters, both media blocks, and the wealthy.

You make good points.
 
Who is going to care? Left politicians for the most part talk tough but they are owned by the wealthy and act accordingly at the end of the day. As far as left wing voters are concerned about half of them support Clinton style third way and the other half are Bernie types. The Bernie types can't take on the other half of their party, their party leadership, the Republican party leadership, right-wing voters, both media blocks, and the wealthy.

That's the thing people miss. Its not republicans represent the wealthy and the democrats represent the people.

It's the republicans represent one group of rich interests and the democrats represent another group of rich interests.
 
If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.

You say that it will be more of the same yet that is never what happens. Did Obama call for a huge tax cut for corporations who already have record profits and gifts to the wealthy? No. Every single time the Republicans get control it is another gift to the richest Americans and a huge F-you to the rest of us. This tax cut had 25% approval yet it had to be rushed thru without even a chance to read it.
 
That's the thing people miss. Its not republicans represent the wealthy and the democrats represent the people.

It's the republicans represent one group of rich interests and the democrats represent another group of rich interests.

If the Democrats represent rich interests it is those that do not want to bankrupt the country with more tax cuts for them. There are plenty of wealthy people who oppose this abomination. The last 2 Democratic President RAISED taxes on wealthy individuals with their support.
 
If the Democrats represent rich interests it is those that do not want to bankrupt the country with more tax cuts for them. There are plenty of wealthy people who oppose this abomination. The last 2 Democratic President RAISED taxes on wealthy individuals with their support.

The money that backs dems tends to come from sources that depend on American paychecks for their profits.
 
The money that backs dems tends to come from sources that depend on American paychecks for their profits.

What the greedy rich don't understand is that virtually ALL wealth is dependent on middle class paychecks. They are cutting their own throats too and the GOP is helping them do it.
 
You say that it will be more of the same yet that is never what happens. Did Obama call for a huge tax cut for corporations who already have record profits and gifts to the wealthy? No. Every single time the Republicans get control it is another gift to the richest Americans and a huge F-you to the rest of us. This tax cut had 25% approval yet it had to be rushed thru without even a chance to read it.

More of the same in that Obama continued the 3rd way policies of Clinton in the 90's. I said it's overall better to vote in Democrats but it's not going to be a game changer in 2018 and 2020. They'll kick the economic goalposts a couple inches to the left, and they'll largely just accept it when the goalposts only make it an inch to the left and that will be the end of it.

My OP was basically just expounding on the fact that political economics in America are futile for anyone but the wealthy. As George Carlin always said "the game is rigged folks".
 
More of the same in that Obama continued the 3rd way policies of Clinton in the 90's. I said it's overall better to vote in Democrats but it's not going to be a game changer in 2018 and 2020. They'll kick the economic goalposts a couple inches to the left, and they'll largely just accept it when the goalposts only make it an inch to the left and that will be the end of it.

My OP was basically just expounding on the fact that political economics in America are futile for anyone but the wealthy. As George Carlin always said "the game is rigged folks".

Both Clinton and Obama had Republican Congress's for nearly all of their terms. Putting the blame on Democratic Presidents for not being left enough is pretty ridiculous given that situation. The fact is that both of them RAISED taxes on the wealthy and improved the solvency of our social programs and that alone makes them heroes of the progressive movement. Look at what the GOP is doing for comparison.
 
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More of the same in that Obama continued the 3rd way policies of Clinton in the 90's. I said it's overall better to vote in Democrats but it's not going to be a game changer in 2018 and 2020. They'll kick the economic goalposts a couple inches to the left, and they'll largely just accept it when the goalposts only make it an inch to the left and that will be the end of it.

My OP was basically just expounding on the fact that political economics in America are futile for anyone but the wealthy. As George Carlin always said "the game is rigged folks".

This is exactly correct. I sometimes chuckle when conservatives call Obama "far far left," or make arguments that we've tried leftist economic policies and they've failed. Clinton and Obama were centrists, and they employed mostly centrist policies. Congress since the early 80s has made centrist or conservative laws and policies. The result of those policies has been an ever widening income and wealth gap.

The problem with those gaps is not fully understood by most people, and the wealthy who bring them about certainly do not understand the logical conclusion of doing so, though history is more or less univocal on this point. The result of such a gap is that people lose any sense that they're involved in a common enterprise with their fellow citizens. People will start to opt out when that is the case, and turn to their own means of making a living. When they get desperate enough, those means include preying on others directly. It's a recipe for taking a society down.

One notion that seems to infest conservative thinking these days is that citizens have no responsibility for anyone other than themselves, no obligation to anyone but themselves. This works itself out in a number of ways, including the idea that taxation is theft and that social programs should be abolished. This kind of attitude runs directly counter to the reason to have an economy and a society in the first place. Complicating matters is that conservatives have a legitimate point when they claim that things can go too far the other way--taxes can be too high, social programs too robust. Competition plays a legitimate, beneficial, and necessary role in any economy. But the problem is that they've taken this principle and turned it into an ideology that any mutual help is to be shunned. And when societies get to that point, I'm afraid history is also univocal--the end is nigh.
 
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If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.

What is the criticism here? That Dems haven't denounced this legislation loudly and often (they have). That they didn't vote against it (every one of them did)?

No, it's that "their heart isn't in it," whatever the hell that means.
 
If anyone has any illusion the Democratic leadership and their counterparts in the media are the party of the people when it comes to your wallet, you may want to take notice. They'll put up a "fight" and criticize, some; but their heart isn't in it and they kind of just mutter as the people take another knife in the back. The usual suspects like Bernie and Warren will be outspoken but in general the rest don't really resist. It may be far better to elect Democrats overall but if you think they're going to give you economic results beyond a band-aid you're dreaming. You can make excuses and say it's because of x, y, and z; but the bottom line is they're never going to change anything. In 2018 and 2020 if there is a blue wave, mark my words, it will be more of the same in the end; at least from an economic perspective.

shrug...

They voted. What more do you want them to do?
 
Both Clinton and Obama had Republican Congress's for nearly all of their terms. Putting the blame on Democratic Presidents for not being left enough is pretty ridiculous given that situation. The fact is that both of them RAISED taxes on the wealthy and improved the solvency of our social programs and that alone makes them heroes of the progressive movement. Look at what the GOP is doing for comparison.

Those are valid arguments but I'm not necessarily trying to blame Obama and Clinton. This is an overall problem with messaging and platform of the entire Democratic structure. It's also about small potatoes. Saying "I cured your cancer 3% which is better than the worsening of your cancer under X". Yeah that's great and I'll take it but that's just slightly postponing the death of the bottom 60% of the country. If Democrats want votes they need to have a BIG platform that is going to get people excited, like what Bernie did. My wife and I voted for him in the primaries for the first time in our lives because it was actually worth getting out of the house for. For Democrats to be economically successful they have to start with messaging and talking about moving the goalposts 10 feet to the left. If you ask for two inches you'll get one and nobody gives a **** about one.
 
They assume that if the R's do a tax law (Yet to be seen) that it will be so bad that everyone will know that it is bad and they will get rewarded for not being bad....You know, the failed Hillary argument.

But even if they are right this time folks might just care that they made no effort to stop the bad.

I just wish it was not so often a race about who can least screw over the American people. It has become so tired with all the nose holding every time we vote.

At this point the people have been trained to be glad to be molested by the criminal with the smallest junk.
 
I just wish it was not so often a race about who can least screw over the American people. It has become so tired with all the nose holding every time we vote.

At this point the people have been trained to be glad to be molested by the criminal with the smallest junk.

Nice way to put it....and so very few of our so called leaders are ready to be better...almost none, The arrival of Trump taught them nothing, because they are still found unwilling to learn.
 
Those are valid arguments but I'm not necessarily trying to blame Obama and Clinton. This is an overall problem with messaging and platform of the entire Democratic structure. It's also about small potatoes. Saying "I cured your cancer 3% which is better than the worsening of your cancer under X". Yeah that's great and I'll take it but that's just slightly postponing the death of the bottom 60% of the country. If Democrats want votes they need to have a BIG platform that is going to get people excited, like what Bernie did. My wife and I voted for him in the primaries for the first time in our lives because it was actually worth getting out of the house for. For Democrats to be economically successful they have to start with messaging and talking about moving the goalposts 10 feet to the left. If you ask for two inches you'll get one and nobody gives a **** about one.

I have no argument with that but without a "3 way" majority the GOP will thwart anything the Dems try and do. This has been the story for at least 35 years.
 
I just wish it was not so often a race about who can least screw over the American people. It has become so tired with all the nose holding every time we vote.

At this point the people have been trained to be glad to be molested by the criminal with the smallest junk.

The current criminal does have small hands.....:lol:
 
This is exactly correct. I sometimes chuckle when conservatives call Obama "far far left," or make arguments that we've tried leftist economic policies and they've failed. Clinton and Obama were centrists, and they employed mostly centrist policies. Congress since the early 80s has made centrist or conservative laws and policies. The result of those policies has been an ever widening income and wealth gap.

The problem with those gaps is not fully understood by most people, and the wealthy who bring them about certainly do not understand the logical conclusion of doing so, though history is more or less univocal on this point. The result of such a gap is that people lose any sense that they're involved in a common enterprise with their fellow citizens. People will start to opt out when that is the case, and turn to their own means of making a living. When they get desperate enough, those means include preying on others directly. It's a recipe for taking a society down.

One notion that seems to infest conservative thinking these days is that citizens have no responsibility for anyone other than themselves, no obligation to anyone but themselves. This works itself out in a number of ways, including the idea that taxation is theft and that social programs should be abolished. This kind of attitude runs directly counter to the reason to have an economy and a society in the first place. Complicating matters is that conservatives have a legitimate point when they claim that things can go too far the other way--taxes can be too high, social programs too robust. Competition plays a legitimate, beneficial, and necessary role in any economy. But the problem is that they've taken this principle and turned it into an ideology that any mutual help is to be shunned. And when societies get to that point, I'm afraid history is also univocal--the end is nigh.

Greed is neurochemical addiction. The same reward squirrels get for hiding a nut they get for banking another million.

Problem is that like all addictions tolerance develops. So they need two million next year and four the year after that to get the same " buzz".

Also like addicts, ANYTHING can be rationalized to keep the joy juice flowing.

History is just a cycle. Where those at the top feed their addictions to money and power until their activities make life untenable for the masses to the point the masses force them to stop.

Then the cycle starts again.
 
This is exactly correct. I sometimes chuckle when conservatives call Obama "far far left," or make arguments that we've tried leftist economic policies and they've failed. Clinton and Obama were centrists, and they employed mostly centrist policies. Congress since the early 80s has made centrist or conservative laws and policies. The result of those policies has been an ever widening income and wealth gap.

The problem with those gaps is not fully understood by most people, and the wealthy who bring them about certainly do not understand the logical conclusion of doing so, though history is more or less univocal on this point. The result of such a gap is that people lose any sense that they're involved in a common enterprise with their fellow citizens. People will start to opt out when that is the case, and turn to their own means of making a living. When they get desperate enough, those means include preying on others directly. It's a recipe for taking a society down.

One notion that seems to infest conservative thinking these days is that citizens have no responsibility for anyone other than themselves, no obligation to anyone but themselves. This works itself out in a number of ways, including the idea that taxation is theft and that social programs should be abolished. This kind of attitude runs directly counter to the reason to have an economy and a society in the first place. Complicating matters is that conservatives have a legitimate point when they claim that things can go too far the other way--taxes can be too high, social programs too robust. Competition plays a legitimate, beneficial, and necessary role in any economy. But the problem is that they've taken this principle and turned it into an ideology that any mutual help is to be shunned. And when societies get to that point, I'm afraid history is also univocal--the end is nigh.

That's pretty insightful and I think it has a lot to do with our current situation. I remember I think it was Jon Stewart was always saying "Republicans keep saying government is bad and when they get into office they prove it". This failure of government causes a lack of faith and yeah people turn to other means.
 
What is the criticism here? That Dems haven't denounced this legislation loudly and often (they have). That they didn't vote against it (every one of them did)?

No, it's that "their heart isn't in it," whatever the hell that means.

If you recall the past year whenever Trump and the Republicans did something vile the left has gone bananas and held them accountable. The media has lashed out and taken them to task. Did that happen over this tax bill? Not really. They just kind of said "it's bad, it will hurt you... and its going to pass". There was no fury, there were no giant headlines and dozens of politicians swearing to right this injustice.

If there was one issue that was important to the most people it would be economics. Yet the left concentrates on racism, sexism, and only cares about identity politics. The reason is because that stuff doesn't cost the wealthy money.
 
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