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Our form of gvmt has never been in greater peril.

Cardinal said:
It just goes to show: you can always convince a Republican a bad thing happened if you tell him that a Democrat was responsible for it.
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No.

The Russian "meddling" was not a "bad thing." It was barely even a "thing."

Obama didn't go after it for just that reason -- there was nothing to go after, save for the possibility that they were involved in hacking the DNC. That would actually be a crime, but slinging mud and trying to get one party or the other elected is neither here nor there. It's happened since the dawn of time and will continue to happen.

The only charges we've seen so far -- and are likely to see in the future -- are not related to any sort of espionage of Americans involved with the Russians.

This whole thing has become one of the biggest "non-story" stories to come down the pipe. The truth is that Obama didn't do anything to stop it because it wasn't an issue.

Still isn't.
 
Dittohead not! said:
What does that mean?
Hillary lost the rigged election.
Hillary wasn't the one who said the election was rigged.
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You asked how the outcome of the election could have occurred had the election not been rigged.

The answer is Hillary Clinton.

The reason Trump won was because the DNC chose the possible candidate. Many of the votes for Trump were, in actuality, votes against Hillary.
 
HowardBThiname said:
No.

The Russian "meddling" was not a "bad thing." It was barely even a "thing."

Obama didn't go after it for just that reason -- there was nothing to go after, save for the possibility that they were involved in hacking the DNC. That would actually be a crime, but slinging mud and trying to get one party or the other elected is neither here nor there. It's happened since the dawn of time and will continue to happen.

The only charges we've seen so far -- and are likely to see in the future -- are not related to any sort of espionage of Americans involved with the Russians.

This whole thing has become one of the biggest "non-story" stories to come down the pipe. The truth is that Obama didn't do anything to stop it because it wasn't an issue.

Still isn't.
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Well, that sure is an interesting version of alternate reality.
 
HowardBThiname said:
You asked how the outcome of the election could have occurred had the election not been rigged.

The answer is Hillary Clinton.

The reason Trump won was because the DNC chose the possible candidate. Many of the votes for Trump were, in actuality, votes against Hillary.
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Mine sure was. And I believe if Biden had run, he would have been POTUS.

I couldn’t wait to post this even knowing that I wouldn’t have much time to devote to it ‘til much later or tomorrow even. It was a reply I made to another poster in another thread, slightly edited to become its own.

It’s heartening to see most of the responses. I’ll be back. Hope this post continues to get legs.
 
HowardBThiname said:
It's only "alternate" if one is locked in a false narrative.
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Okay, I think I'll go with the reality that our entire law enforcement and intelligence community is going with here. Thanks for the guided tour of parallel earth, though.
 
MaggieD said:
From Newsweek:




Whose “paranoid claim” is it now??


The Left excuses Obama’s failure to send in the cavalry when he supposedly found out the SHOCKING fact that the Russians were meddling in our election. He didn’t want to reveal it for political reasons. Simple as that. Why doesn’t the Left see that?? Politics!! And you and others are more than willing to read that analysis and agree that was a good reason!! Are you KIDDING me??


And, as this link makes clear, Obama did nothing to expose it in a prominent way. He put political interests ahead of the “shocking revelation” that the Russians were currently and actively SUPPOSEDLY interfering in our most sacred right. The right to vote. Our right to choose.


Yet, and STILL, our entire Federal security force on task couldn’t and STILL can’t identify specifically how it was happening and couldn’t stop it. Hundreds of billions of budget dollars spent on national security and STILL the best we’ve got is “the Russians meddled.” And the NEXT best thing we have is that “It’s Trump’s fault. He colluded.” [BOLD]Even FURTHER, our investigation is starting from the premise that he DID and desperately trying to make the pieces fit.[/BOLD]


Using Trump as the excuse, his saying he might not accept the results, HC calling that “HORRIFYING.” Saying his statement is frightening. A threat to the very core of our Republic! Yet who is it that is not accepting the results?? Who is it that is tearing this nation apart?? The Democrats... led by standard bearer HC.


Is the left as HORRIFIED that the DNC purposefully got rid of Bernie? It did. We all know. No, of course not. THAT was CLEARLY an effective disenfranchisement of the American people’s right to choose. And not one powerful Leftist gives a damn.


What we’ve got here is a coupe attempt. A desperate and seemingly pretty effective run at destroying the opposition, destroying the POTUS and delegitimizing the election itself. And our politicians, desperate to keep their jobs, holding up a finger in the wind to see which way it’s blowing and deciding their loyalties NOT on what is best for this COUNTRY. Oh, no! “What’s the best way for me to retain my seat.”


Believe this old lady. Our nation, our form of government and its survival has never been in greater peril in all its history.

Discussion?
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The Liberals are just mad because they lost to a political nobody.
 
Lovebug said:
The responsibility lies with the last admin, it ( whatever it may be) happened under their watch. They either were complete failures or complicit. Incompetence, or because they looked the other way and let it happen because they anticipated a Clinton win, in which case it would have been covered up. Of course for partisan's sake it became Mrs. Clinton's convenient excuse for her own failure. Had she not sat on her entitled rump ready to receive the long anticipated crown, but had run a better campaign, she might have won. Anyone remotely trying and capable could have beaten Trump hands down and shackled.
So why don't we call this what it is?
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Absolutely.

All the lying in front of Congressional committees by the Trump administration is clearly Obama’s fault.

Or Clinton. Or maybe Nancy Pelosi. They forced them to continually lie about Russian involvement.
 
Cardinal said:
Okay, I think I'll go with the reality that our entire law enforcement and intelligence community is going with here. Thanks for the guided tour of parallel earth, though.
Click to expand...

If you were truly going with the "reality that our entire law enforcement and intelligence community" is going with, you'd have to admit that no charges whatsoever have been filed that actually related to any crimes that involve our citizens colluding to undermine an election. It simply hasn't happened, which means you're not going by what our law enforcement community is really doing, which is investigating , but rather you're putting on the pointy hat that all conspiracy theorists wear and pretending to know the outcome before it arrives.

It's just wishful thinking. It reminds me of all the "predictions" of how Hillary would be found guilty and complicit. Sure, we had a lot of pointy-hat conspiracies circling around at that time, too, and you see how that ended up.

I suggest that you check to see if you're on the real earth, or the parallel one you just mentioned.

I believe it's the latter.
 
HowardBThiname said:
If you were truly going with the "reality that our entire law enforcement and intelligence community" is going with, you'd have to admit that no charges whatsoever have been filed that actually related to any crimes that involve our citizens colluding to undermine an election. It simply hasn't happened, which means you're not going by what our law enforcement community is really doing, which is investigating , but rather you're putting on the pointy hat that all conspiracy theorists wear and pretending to know the outcome before it arrives.

It's just wishful thinking. It reminds me of all the "predictions" of how Hillary would be found guilty and complicit. Sure, we had a lot of pointy-hat conspiracies circling around at that time, too, and you see how that ended up.

I suggest that you check to see if you're on the real earth, or the parallel one you just mentioned.

I believe it's the latter.
Click to expand...

Law enforcement and the intelligence community agreeing that Russia interfered in our elections is a separate thought from whether or not anybody has been charged with a crime. You're able to type in complete sentences, so I know you're aware of this.
 
MaggieD said:
From Newsweek:




Whose “paranoid claim” is it now??


The Left excuses Obama’s failure to send in the cavalry when he supposedly found out the SHOCKING fact that the Russians were meddling in our election. He didn’t want to reveal it for political reasons. Simple as that. Why doesn’t the Left see that?? Politics!! And you and others are more than willing to read that analysis and agree that was a good reason!! Are you KIDDING me??


And, as this link makes clear, Obama did nothing to expose it in a prominent way. He put political interests ahead of the “shocking revelation” that the Russians were currently and actively SUPPOSEDLY interfering in our most sacred right. The right to vote. Our right to choose.


Yet, and STILL, our entire Federal security force on task couldn’t and STILL can’t identify specifically how it was happening and couldn’t stop it. Hundreds of billions of budget dollars spent on national security and STILL the best we’ve got is “the Russians meddled.” And the NEXT best thing we have is that “It’s Trump’s fault. He colluded.” [BOLD]Even FURTHER, our investigation is starting from the premise that he DID and desperately trying to make the pieces fit.[/BOLD]


Using Trump as the excuse, his saying he might not accept the results, HC calling that “HORRIFYING.” Saying his statement is frightening. A threat to the very core of our Republic! Yet who is it that is not accepting the results?? Who is it that is tearing this nation apart?? The Democrats... led by standard bearer HC.


Is the left as HORRIFIED that the DNC purposefully got rid of Bernie? It did. We all know. No, of course not. THAT was CLEARLY an effective disenfranchisement of the American people’s right to choose. And not one powerful Leftist gives a damn.


What we’ve got here is a coupe attempt. A desperate and seemingly pretty effective run at destroying the opposition, destroying the POTUS and delegitimizing the election itself. And our politicians, desperate to keep their jobs, holding up a finger in the wind to see which way it’s blowing and deciding their loyalties NOT on what is best for this COUNTRY. Oh, no! “What’s the best way for me to retain my seat.”


Believe this old lady. Our nation, our form of government and its survival has never been in greater peril in all its history.

Discussion?
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If Hillary had one, he wouldn't have said a word about the Russians either.
 
code1211 said:
What they are doing is a classic and successful tactic of propagandists.

Dehumanize your opponent. It is done by all governments at war to assure that the tendency of the populace to feel empathy for the enemy is reduced or, ideally, eliminated.

The Democrats, and half of the media, are plying this tactic to deceive the weak minded.

It seems to be working. Sadly, the US Legislative Branch is comprised exclusively of the "weak minded".
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If you acknowledged that your side does the same ****ing thing we might get somewhere.

Both sides point to the other and cry "manipulators!" while ignoring their own manipulators.

This is the EXACT phenomenon you are pointing to. The EXACT technique used by Fox and Limbaugh and Hannity.
 
Im sorry, y'all...but this is just crap. Russia isnt responsible for our electoral mess. Russia had very little if any actual influence on our elections. To date...hell...theres no actual proof Russia even hacked the DNC. Thats what happens when the DNC senbds data to a firm in Ukraine to analyze rather than giving the servers to the feds.

Our election mess is a reflection of us. The country is divided on ideologies. This isnt uncommon. Every affluent society throughout history has gone through similar growing pains. Its a matter of identity.

Before you look to Russia...look at Congress. Sweeeet baby hay zeus...look at the ****ers we send back there year after year, election after election. How are you going to blame that on anyone but the citizens in every state? Congress has a 7-9% approval rating. They havent passed a budget in 11 years. They cant sit down and work out legislation. They are invested in pure partisan politics. Is that a by-product of the two party system? NO...its a by-product of the ****ty representatives we keep sending back there.

Seriously. LOOK at who we have sitting in Congress.



He's just one of many.

This latest election reflects the country. Thats not Russia's fault. Do I think Putin would LOVE to influence our elections? Sure. Putin has made no bones about who and what he is. But I truly believe this is SO MUCH more enjoyable for Putin than if he actually had influenced the election. He is mind ****ing people daily without even trying. And WE did that to ourselves. Russia has been made a Baba Yaga for political gain. And now the boogeyman is 'real'. Russia has been used in this last election in the same manner it was used in the 2012 election.



Whats sad is the number of people that fell for it in 2012 has increased in 2016.
 
Cardinal said:
Law enforcement and the intelligence community agreeing that Russia interfered in our elections is a separate thought from whether or not anybody has been charged with a crime. You're able to type in complete sentences, so I know you're aware of this.
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That is correct, but, by that token, we're faced with "interference" not being a crime.

That's what everything is hinging on -- whether it is or isn't a crime to interfere. If it's not a crime -- meaning no one will face charges of espionage or collusion (whatever) associated with it -- then there's no real story. It's just a political witch hunt, and, gawd knows, we've seen quite a few of those in the past years.
 
VanceMack said:
Im sorry, y'all...but this is just crap. Russia isnt responsible for our electoral mess. Russia had very little if any actual influence on our elections. To date...hell...theres no actual proof Russia even hacked the DNC. Thats what happens when the DNC senbds data to a firm in Ukraine to analyze rather than giving the servers to the feds.

Our election mess is a reflection of us. The country is divided on ideologies. This isnt uncommon. Every affluent society throughout history has gone through similar growing pains. Its a matter of identity.

Before you look to Russia...look at Congress. Sweeeet baby hay zeus...look at the ****ers we send back there year after year, election after election. How are you going to blame that on anyone but the citizens in every state? Congress has a 7-9% approval rating. They havent passed a budget in 11 years. They cant sit down and work out legislation. They are invested in pure partisan politics. Is that a by-product of the two party system? NO...its a by-product of the ****ty representatives we keep sending back there.

Seriously. LOOK at who we have sitting in Congress.



He's just one of many.

This latest election reflects the country. Thats not Russia's fault. Do I think Putin would LOVE to influence our elections? Sure. Putin has made no bones about who and what he is. But I truly believe this is SO MUCH more enjoyable for Putin than if he actually had influenced the election. He is mind ****ing people daily without even trying. And WE did that to ourselves. Russia has been made a Baba Yaga for political gain. And now the boogeyman is 'real'. Russia has been used in this last election in the same manner it was used in the 2012 election.



Whats sad is the number of people that fell for it in 2012 has increased in 2016.
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Very well said. Excellent post.
 
HowardBThiname said:
That is correct, but, by that token, we're faced with "interference" not being a crime.

That's what everything is hinging on -- whether it is or isn't a crime to interfere. If it's not a crime -- meaning no one will face charges of espionage or collusion (whatever) associated with it -- then there's no real story. It's just a political witch hunt, and, gawd knows, we've seen quite a few of those in the past years.
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No, you said that's it unimportant, and the entirety of the intelligence and law enforcement community disagrees with you along with everybody who else thinks it's problematic that one of our greatest geopolitical foes interfered to such lengths. Also, whether or not a crime has been committed during that interference has yet to be determined, though multiple conspiracies to commit election fraud are at least possible. There is also the small matter of everybody in the campaign and administration having lied about their Russian connections literally one hundred percent of the time, which is probably not an encouraging sign if you want to believe that Trump and Co. are squeaky clean.

But again, if all of this seems overwhelming to you, then you can always retreat to the other side of the debate and blame Obama. As I said, it's okay to admit Russian interference occurred if you can blame it on Obama.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I have the same sense of this as you do, Maggie. They are going to keep it up until they succeed in bringing down a lawfully elected President of the United States and they are doing it for no other reason than they lost the election. I suspect they would be doing this to ANY Republican who won the election in 2016.

The American left has largely become a faux angry, hate mongering movement that turns a blind eye to any wrongdoing by their own bit they magnify the most insignificant blips and incidents of the current administration to make it look damning enough to inspire mob mentality to take them down. And because they own the media, they have the weapon to do it.

They have constantly tried to compare the Trump administration with fascist dictators which is absurd. But it is not absurd that what they do is precisely how all dictators have come to power. Demonize the lawful government in a way that the people will meekly allow them to overthrow it. And then they can do anything to anybody because our Democratic Republic will have ceased to exist.

I am not saying that is specifically what is happening. I am just saying that if they succeed in destroying this President and/or his administration, a dictator can do the same.
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When they don't have victims, they wouldn't have anything to say at all.
 
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code1211 said:
What they are doing is a classic and successful tactic of propagandists.

Dehumanize your opponent. It is done by all governments at war to assure that the tendency of the populace to feel empathy for the enemy is reduced or, ideally, eliminated.

The Democrats, and half of the media, are plying this tactic to deceive the weak minded.

It seems to be working. Sadly, the US Legislative Branch is comprised exclusively of the "weak minded".
Click to expand...

Who is being dehumanized? How?
 
Common Sense 1 said:
Agree with you 1000%. From minutes after Trump won the election the "resist movement" was activated. Screaming and whaling that Trump is Hitler or a Nazi who hates everyone in American. The media went into a much stronger destroy Trump mode than they were in the election. Cells of "resist" people employed in the federal government doing what they can to slow down or stop the changes the Trump administration are trying to put forward. Leak after leak of classified information to try and damage the Trump administration. Crying about everything President Trump does and the way he has done it. Trying the best they can to say this election was not fair, the election was stolen by: Comey, the Russians, the electoral college, women haters, go down the stupid list they came up with. Screaming and yelling that president Trump needed to be removed from office using the 25th amendment. Democratic congressman filing impeachment papers to try to impeach President Trump. Insane behavior from the Never Trump forces which include establishment republicans.
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You guys need to get a grip. The GOP has the white house and majority and still act like somebody is out to get them.

There is nothing wrong with a group of people protesting the election of the president. There was nothing wrong when the Tea Party was formed to oppose the election of Obama. There was nothing wrong with the open carry rallies on the steps of Capital Hill. If you guys feel so victimized by others exercising their constitutional rights, then maybe you should leave. Maybe America isn't the right place for you.
 
Threegoofs said:
Absolutely.

All the lying in front of Congressional committees by the Trump administration is clearly Obama’s fault.

Or Clinton. Or maybe Nancy Pelosi. They forced them to continually lie about Russian involvement.
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Did you get pissed off when Obama ignored The Constitution?
 
SheWolf said:
You guys need to get a grip. The GOP has the white house and majority and still act like somebody is out to get them.

There is nothing wrong with a group of people protesting the election of the president. There was nothing wrong when the Tea Party was formed to oppose the election of Obama. There was nothing wrong with the open carry rallies on the steps of Capital Hill. If you guys feel so victimized by others exercising their constitutional rights, then maybe you should leave. Maybe America isn't the right place for you.
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That isn't why the Tea Party was formed. It was formed to oppose Obama's communist policies. You didn't see Conservatives whining about the election being rigged.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Americans can meddle in the worlds elections and still reserve the right to be furious when it happens to them.
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that's the funny thing Rn, conservatives never really cared what we did in the rest of the world. For instance, they had no problem with Reagan funding terrorism in Nicaragua after they had free elections. And they have no problem with Russia meddling in our election. Its literally the only time I can think that conservatives weren't flaming hypocrites. An example of their flaming hypocrisy would be when Russia invaded Crimea all you heard from the right was "wah wah sanctions? Obama is weak, wah wah". Democrats supported sanctions. Russia helps a dumpster fire get elected president and conservatives are "Russia is nice, we should be friends". Democrats still support sanctions.
 
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