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What do we do with men and sexual misconduct, socially

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SmokeAndMirrors

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Buckle up, this is gonna be one of my really long double-posts that I occasionally do. Sorry-not-sorry. :mrgreen:

So a thought I'm having in light of this absolute avalanche of sexual misconduct instances that are coming to light.

Obviously we have our Moores, Takeis, and Weinsteins who are just predators, seemingly incorrigible and will never admit wrong-doing. Just about the only thing we can do with them, in lieu of any legal options, is try to hunt them out of their positions of power, to make it less likely they will continue to get away with this crap. They'll keep doing it, I'm sure, but the less powerful they are, the less likely they are to escape prosecution.

But then we also have our H.W. Bushes, and our Frankens.

Do I believe them when they say they're sorry and they really didn't understand what they were doing? After nearly 15 years working on gender and social issues, yes, I do.

(STOP. Before you go any further: I have gone out of my way to avoid this being a partisan crap-flinging fest. There are men on both sides of the political spectrum who fall into either of these camps. This is not a political problem. This is a social problem. If you have no interest in engaging this post on that level, go fling crap somewhere else. Ok. Continue...)

After nearly 15 years looking at this issue from every angle in existence, yes, I do believe there is a genuine problem with people not understanding what consent is. Not just for men. Also for women. It's just that women, on a society-wide level, also have an issue with asserting themselves, so it just doesn't show up as often, or it shows up as them not understanding their OWN right to consent.

Humans are malleable. We perform to the benchmark we've been given. We learn what we have been taught. And if everyone around us thinks grabbing someone's junk is ok, we tend to think it's ok. That's why we don't like to let our teenagers drive with other teenagers in the car. We know they're vulnerable to influence.

A lot of men genuinely don't understand the fear the stuff they think is "funny" justifiably causes women. They don't understand that either sex may feel unable to say no when they are at a power disadvantage. They don't truly internalize that unassailable right one has to their own body. They don't sense where the boundary of their own ends, and another's begins.

As an unusual woman who doesn't struggle with self-assertion, even I have had moments where I've had to be told no more sternly than should have been necessary. It hit me like a brick the first time I realized that.

I share that because I think I am in a crowd of everyone in the country, on that fact. I have yet to meet any man who has never done something like that, and if she is not restrained by social meakness, I have yet to meet any woman who hasn't either. I have yet to meet anyone who has not committed at least a minor consent violation like that in my entire life. The best of us kick ourselves for it. The average person doesn't even realize it. The worst of us deny it. But this is a universal part of our cultural consciousness. I don't care if you've been working on sexual violence or feminism for 30 years, you are in that boat as much as the rest of us. I've SEEN people with that kind of history STILL committing consent violations.

If someone like me, who has spent the entirety of my sentient life staring at this issue, can still have only a semi-decent sense of where my body ends and another's begins, then it's hardly surprising that men who have spent little to no time on this issue would be, on average, even worse. And even worse still when you give them power, or if they grew up in a time where consent mattered even less than it does now.

Bush Sr. and Franken represent the usual "average person" middle road for older men: they didn't see it until it was pointed out to them.

Should that have been necessary? No. But it was. And after decades of being raised around people who think it's ok, it's hardly surprising that they did too.

Here's the thing. K?
 
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There are a LOT of men like that. We all know tons of them. They may not be quite as bad because they lack the power that means other people tend to just stay silent, but the underlying structure that could make them that way is there. The underlying structure that means they don't realize they should be stopping when they say stuff like, "When I have sex with her, she just lays there and tunes me out" is there. I bet a lot of you just stopped right now and re-read that sentence. Yeah, that's a consent violation. Don't get defensive on me -- I'm not out to hunt DP's witches, I'm just saying, because it's true. Just sit with it.

And most of these men are not bad men. They are humans who were trained to behave this way. They were trained that consent means permission or lack of resistance, not desire or actual agreement. We were all trained that way. Women too -- for those of us who are assertive enough to ever notice it.

So what do we do with these men?

It's not feasible to foist them all out. They make up a huge chunk of the population.

And frankly, I don't think it's right either. Anyone who's read that old electric shock study knows that even good people can be trained to do bad things. And I think that's what most of these men are. It's not right to train them this way, and then act surprised when that's how they behave.

I've seen these sorts of men have a sudden realization of a consent violation with me, an assertive woman who's not afraid to push. The abject shock and horror that washes over their face as it finally clicks in their brain is sad to watch.

They still did the thing. I don't let that go.

But I do understand why they are that way. And if they'll do the work, I'll be the teacher.

What do we do with decent ment whom we've trained to act indecently? Not politically, not for points, not for glory... for society.
 
First, we have to make sure the charge is authentic. I'm seeing these accusations become weaponized and a male accused of impropriety has zero defense.
 
apdst said:
First, we have to make sure the charge is authentic. I'm seeing these accusations become weaponized and a male accused of impropriety has zero defense.
Click to expand...

Statistically speaking, over 90% of accusations have substantial evidence, and less than 1% seem to be false. These statistics are in line with false reporting for most other crimes, and therefore unremarkable.

There is no benefit to accusing. These people gain nothing but a lot of death threats from doing so. I don't accept the argument that we should be rejecting these things on the basis of a benefit that doesn't exist. I will always treat people who tell me they've been assaulted as authentic.

I am interested in what we do to correct a weak consent culture, not how we should be suspicious of victims.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Statistically speaking, over 90% of accusations have substantial evidence, and less than 1% seem to be false. These statistics are in line with false reporting for most other crimes, and therefore unremarkable.

There is no benefit to accusing. These people gain nothing but a lot of death threats from doing so. I don't accept the argument that we should be rejecting these things on the basis of a benefit that doesn't exist. I will always treat people who tell me they've been assaulted as authentic.

I am interested in what we do to correct a weak consent culture, not how we should be suspicious of victims.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't there be some standard of proof, prior to ruining someone's life?
 
apdst said:
Shouldn't there be some standard of proof, prior to ruining someone's life?
Click to expand...

My post is about people who have basically admitted to the accusations against them, so that is not an issue here.

Please address the post, which is about consent culture, not your suspicion of victims.
 
We have people who are a product of their time in a society with mores like shifting sands and both women and men making the media rounds for their 15 minutes.
 
All I can say is, I can't wait until men realize they can start pushing back and point out when women who feel, (solely by virtue of their sex) that they can grope, fondle, entice, abuse, assault, and otherwise sexually molest men pretty much at will without consequences, are themselves perpetrators of sexual misconduct and sexual assault...and BE BELIEVED as readily as women are when they cry "foul" against men.

That will be the day when real "equality" is demonstrated.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Statistically speaking, over 90% of accusations have substantial evidence, and less than 1% seem to be false. These statistics are in line with false reporting for most other crimes, and therefore unremarkable.

There is no benefit to accusing. These people gain nothing but a lot of death threats from doing so. I don't accept the argument that we should be rejecting these things on the basis of a benefit that doesn't exist. I will always treat people who tell me they've been assaulted as authentic.

I am interested in what we do to correct a weak consent culture, not how we should be suspicious of victims.
Click to expand...

I would point out that this seems very specific to the recent allegations. In situations such as a divorce, or wishes to get revenge against a boss who fired you, there can be very real benefits. Additionally, our culture awards status based on a lot of things - but not least on one's ability to claim victimhood.

Becoming The Target For Every Moore Fan In The World is certainly something that fits what you describe, but there are other situations where women (and men) can be motivated to make false accusations, or to take minor issues (or even non-issues) and attempt to exaggerate them.
 
Captain Adverse said:
All I can say is, I can't wait until men realize they can start pushing back and point out when women who feel, (solely by virtue of their sex) that they can grope, fondle, entice, abuse, assault, and otherwise sexually molest men pretty much at will without consequences, are themselves perpetrators of sexual misconduct and sexual assault...and BE BELIEVED as readily as women are when they cry "foul" against men.

That will be the day when real "equality" is demonstrated.
Click to expand...

That is all you got out of this? You can't wait for chances for spite against women, in order to detract attention from bad behavior of men?

My post addressed men who abuse other boys and men. My post address women who also have a weak sense of consent. My post addressed all kinds of things.

And you're just here to fling crap.

Move along.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Buckle up, this is gonna be one of my really long double-posts that I occasionally do. Sorry-not-sorry. :mrgreen:

So a thought I'm having in light of this absolute avalanche of sexual misconduct instances that are coming to light.

Obviously we have our Moores, Takeis, and Weinsteins who are just predators, seemingly incorrigible and will never admit wrong-doing. Just about the only thing we can do with them, in lieu of any legal options, is try to hunt them out of their positions of power, to make it less likely they will continue to get away with this crap. They'll keep doing it, I'm sure, but the less powerful they are, the less likely they are to escape prosecution.

But then we also have our H.W. Bushes, and our Frankens.

Do I believe them when they say they're sorry and they really didn't understand what they were doing? After nearly 15 years working on gender and social issues, yes, I do.

(STOP. Before you go any further: I have gone out of my way to avoid this being a partisan crap-flinging fest. There are men on both sides of the political spectrum who fall into either of these camps. This is not a political problem. This is a social problem. If you have no interest in engaging this post on that level, go fling crap somewhere else. Ok. Continue...)

After nearly 15 years looking at this issue from every angle in existence, yes, I do believe there is a genuine problem with people not understanding what consent is. Not just for men. Also for women. It's just that women, on a society-wide level, also have an issue with asserting themselves, so it just doesn't show up as often, or it shows up as them not understanding their OWN right to consent.

Humans are malleable. We perform to the benchmark we've been given. We learn what we have been taught. And if everyone around us thinks grabbing someone's junk is ok, we tend to think it's ok. That's why we don't like to let our teenagers drive with other teenagers in the car. We know they're vulnerable to influence.

A lot of men genuinely don't understand the fear the stuff they think is "funny" justifiably causes women. They don't understand that either sex may feel unable to say no when they are at a power disadvantage. They don't truly internalize that unassailable right one has to their own body. They don't sense where the boundary of their own ends, and another's begins.

As an unusual woman who doesn't struggle with self-assertion, even I have had moments where I've had to be told no more sternly than should have been necessary. It hit me like a brick the first time I realized that.

I share that because I think I am in a crowd of everyone in the country, on that fact. I have yet to meet any man who has never done something like that, and if she is not restrained by social meakness, I have yet to meet any woman who hasn't either. I have yet to meet anyone who has not committed at least a minor consent violation like that in my entire life. The best of us kick ourselves for it. The average person doesn't even realize it. The worst of us deny it. But this is a universal part of our cultural consciousness. I don't care if you've been working on sexual violence or feminism for 30 years, you are in that boat as much as the rest of us. I've SEEN people with that kind of history STILL committing consent violations.

If someone like me, who has spent the entirety of my sentient life staring at this issue, can still have only a semi-decent sense of where my body ends and another's begins, then it's hardly surprising that men who have spent little to no time on this issue would be, on average, even worse. And even worse still when you give them power, or if they grew up in a time where consent mattered even less than it does now.

Bush Sr. and Franken represent the usual "average person" middle road for older men: they didn't see it until it was pointed out to them.

Should that have been necessary? No. But it was. And after decades of being raised around people who think it's ok, it's hardly surprising that they did too.

Here's the thing. K?
Click to expand...

This should help

MARILYN MANSON & JOHNNY DEPP ENJOY A LUST-FILLED ORGY IN NEW 'KILL4ME' VIDEO: WATCH

https://www.fuse.tv/2017/11/johnny-depp-threesome-marilyn-manson-kill4me-video

Hollywood has filled us full of sex crazed and violent crap for the last 40 years
 
cpwill said:
I would point out that this seems very specific to the recent allegations. In situations such as a divorce, or wishes to get revenge against a boss who fired you, there can be very real benefits. Additionally, our culture awards status based on a lot of things - but not least on one's ability to claim victimhood.

Becoming The Target For Every Moore Fan In The World is certainly something that fits what you describe, but there are other situations where women (and men) can be motivated to make false accusations, or to take minor issues (or even non-issues) and attempt to exaggerate them.
Click to expand...

The statistics I name apply to all accusations filed, and would include cases like what you mention. False reporting is still extremely rare. Also, in reality, there is seldom if ever any real "revenge." Sexual predators rarely serve meaningful time even when convicted, which they rarely ever are despite evidence in over 90% of cases, and people who report still face massive social backlask for doing so, which I have witnessed repeatedly in my own life of watching and supporting more ordinary people. False reporting is simply NOT an issue. At least not any more so than it is for any other category of crime, and I never hear anyone talking about false reporting for robbery.

Anyway, that does not address what I'm talking about here. What I'm talking about is cases that have happened, that these men have even ADMITTED happened, and what we do about the culture where this keeps happening.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Statistically speaking, over 90% of accusations have substantial evidence, and less than 1% seem to be false. These statistics are in line with false reporting for most other crimes, and therefore unremarkable.

There is no benefit to accusing. These people gain nothing but a lot of death threats from doing so. I don't accept the argument that we should be rejecting these things on the basis of a benefit that doesn't exist. I will always treat people who tell me they've been assaulted as authentic.

I am interested in what we do to correct a weak consent culture, not how we should be suspicious of victims.
Click to expand...

But there is benefit. In many cases a lot of benefit. Some enjoy the 15 minutes of fame, others may participate in any future settlement.

You're statement that you always treat the accuser statement as authentic troubles me. Our system doesn't work that way.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
There are a LOT of men like that. We all know tons of them. They may not be quite as bad because they lack the power that means other people tend to just stay silent, but the underlying structure that could make them that way is there. The underlying structure that means they don't realize they should be stopping when they say stuff like, "When I have sex with her, she just lays there and tunes me out" is there. I bet a lot of you just stopped right now and re-read that sentence. Yeah, that's a consent violation. Don't get defensive on me -- I'm not out to hunt DP's witches, I'm just saying, because it's true. Just sit with it.

And most of these men are not bad men. They are humans who were trained to behave this way. They were trained that consent means permission or lack of resistance, not desire or actual agreement. We were all trained that way. Women too -- for those of us who are assertive enough to ever notice it.

So what do we do with these men?

It's not feasible to foist them all out. They make up a huge chunk of the population.

And frankly, I don't think it's right either. Anyone who's read that old electric shock study knows that even good people can be trained to do bad things. And I think that's what most of these men are. It's not right to train them this way, and then act surprised when that's how they behave.

I've seen these sorts of men have a sudden realization of a consent violation with me, an assertive woman who's not afraid to push. The abject shock and horror that washes over their face as it finally clicks in their brain is sad to watch.

They still did the thing. I don't let that go.

But I do understand why they are that way. And if they'll do the work, I'll be the teacher.

What do we do with decent ment whom we've trained to act indecently? Not politically, not for points, not for glory... for society.
Click to expand...

Great post. It was a TLDR I couldn’t stop reading. ;)

I wonder who “trained” these men to act indecently. Who or what made Al Franken (pick your guy) think it was okay to humiliate a sleeping woman and then post the damned picture? Did their moms teach them that? Their dads? A sports culture? Locker room hijinx? Before one figures out what do DO about it, I think you have to define the reason it’s happening. And then work at changing THAT.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
My post is about people who have basically admitted to the accusations against them, so that is not an issue here.

Please address the post, which is about consent culture, not your suspicion of victims.
Click to expand...

Your post also talks about males saying, or doing things that think is funny, without realizing that a female co-worker might be freaked out by it. That brings up two questions: 1) what's the standard of proof and 2) what's the standard of conduct and is it reasonable?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
That is all you got out of this? You can't wait for chances for spite against women, in order to detract attention from bad behavior of men?

My post addressed men who abuse other boys and men. My post address women who also have a weak sense of consent. My post addressed all kinds of things.

And you're just here to fling crap.

Move along.
Click to expand...

No. I am here to address the fact that your posts presume men to be the major perpetrator's of this type of activity based on "15 years of wrestling with the issue" (despite your "some women too") hidden in that lengthy post.

In MY 45 years of "looking at it from every angle" I find that women perpetuate the narrative of male misogyny simply because we have a "penis" and a stronger upper body...they take no responsibility for perpetuating this "truism," demanding equality while hiding behind the privileges of the "weaker sex."

I agree that males can be overly aggressive. However, women can be that way as well, we just accept and tolerate it more because...they are "women" so what harm can they do?

Forgive me if I don't immediately fall into the "yes ma'am, can I have more blame ma'am" for sex and sexual mores. Had your posts been truly balanced instead of another "men are beasts but they can be trained better," I might have responded differently. :shrug:
 
MaggieD said:
Great post. It was a TLDR I couldn’t stop reading. ;)

I wonder who “trained” these men to act indecently. Who or what made Al Franken (pick your guy) think it was okay to humiliate a sleeping woman and then post the damned picture? Did their moms teach them that? Their dads? A sports culture? Locker room hijinx? Before one figures out what do DO about it, I think you have to define the reason it’s happening. And then work at changing THAT.
Click to expand...

Yes.

All of those things.

I mean, it's really complex. Where do we start? We can start at the obvious sutff, like "no is a yes in disguise" -- a thing some men say in total seriousness. They just need "convincing" that this is what they want. Consent is thought of as lack of persistant resistance, not desire.

But then we get into the deep stuff. For example, it is socially unacceptable for adult men to have any emotional or physical intimacy with anyone except a woman they are sexually or romantically involved with. Think about it for a second. It's true. It's barely acceptable for men to even hug their children. As someone raised by a single father, I saw his completely reasonable fear, given that everyone basically assumes single dads are creeps.

What affect does it have on men to be so universally denied intimacy?

It's not just the obvious stuff, like overt statements that degrade the meaning of consent. It's also the strain we put men under with things like stoicism and touch avesion. Both of those need addressing.

Who enforces it? To some degree, everyone. Mostly it is other men. It is other men who accept it as no big deal when talking about "no means yes." But it's something all of us participate in to some degree. Mothers leave their infant boys to cry for longer than their infant girls, for example.

It's about the ideal we have for men -- to be unemotional, both in the context of their relationship to themselves, and to others.
 
apdst said:
Your post also talks about males saying, or doing things that think is funny, without realizing that a female co-worker might be freaked out by it. That brings up two questions: 1) what's the standard of proof and 2) what's the standard of conduct and is it reasonable?
Click to expand...

How's an actual physical picture of a man honking a woman's boobs while she's konked out? I mean, what the **** do you need?

If you don't feel like addressing my point, move along.
 
MaggieD said:
Great post. It was a TLDR I couldn’t stop reading. ;)

I wonder who “trained” these men to act indecently. Who or what made Al Franken (pick your guy) think it was okay to humiliate a sleeping woman and then post the damned picture? Did their moms teach them that? Their dads? A sports culture? Locker room hijinx? Before one figures out what do DO about it, I think you have to define the reason it’s happening. And then work at changing THAT.
Click to expand...

I think the problem lies with females working in a male environment wanting to be treated like "one of the guys". Sooner, or later someone is going to cross a line (a very undefined line) and she isn't going to be treated like one of the guys anymore and file a complaint. When that happens, the male won't be able to use the dedense that he was treating her just like one of the guys, because he'll be reminded by management that is not one of the guys.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
How's an actual physical picture of a man honking a woman's boobs while she's konked out? I mean, what the **** do you need?

If you don't feel like addressing my point, move along.
Click to expand...

Oh, you never said the thread topic was specifically about Al Franken.
 
Captain Adverse said:
No. I am here to address the fact that your posts presume men to be the major perpetrator's of this type of activity based on "15 years of wrestling with the issue" (despite your "some women too") hidden in that lengthy post.

In MY 45 years of "looking at it from every angle" I find that women perpetuate the narrative of male misogyny simply because we have a "penis" and a stronger upper body...they take no responsibility for perpetuating this "truism," demanding equality while hiding behind the privileges of the "weaker sex."

I agree that males can be overly aggressive. However, women can be that way as well, we just accept and tolerate it more because...they are "women" so what harm can they do?

Forgive me if I don't immediately fall into the "yes ma'am, can I have more blame ma'am" for sex and sexual mores. Had your posts been truly balanced instead of another "men are beasts but they can be trained better," I might have responded differently. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Um, they are. Sorry, they just are.

When we train the sexes differently, it is not surprising they will do certain things more or less often than the other.

If your ego is too fragile to look at this honestly, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm a life-long activist who had to admit to myself that in successfully bucking female meakness, I was now dealing with an inability to fully understand consent. Do you think I'm proud of that? Of course I'm not.

I just care more about getting better than I do about my damn ego. Maybe you should try the same.
 
apdst said:
Oh, you never said the thread topic was specifically about Al Franken.
Click to expand...

It isn't. But that's the sort of thing I'm addressing here. There's no contest by anyone that this stuff happened, in the cases given. So address it, rather than trying to bury it under a bunch of nonsense.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
It isn't. But that's the sort of thing I'm addressing here. There's no contest by anyone that this stuff happened, in the cases given. So address it, rather than trying to bury it under a bunch of nonsense.
Click to expand...

I think you're jumping the gun. We still don't know what standard constitutes the necessity to "do something with them".
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Um, they are. Sorry, they just are.

When we train the sexes differently, it is not surprising they will do certain things more or less often than the other.

If your ego is too fragile to look at this honestly, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm a life-long activist who had to admit to myself that in successfully bucking female meakness, I was now dealing with an inability to fully understand consent. Do you think I'm proud of that? Of course I'm not.

I just care more about getting better than I do about my damn ego. Maybe you should try the same.
Click to expand...

I believe that I am looking at it more honestly than you have...as clearly indicated in the bolded part of this response.

You blame men more, as a "life-long activist."

So I am right on the money with my responses. :shrug:
 
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