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What do we do with men and sexual misconduct, socially

Lutherf said:
This is why I firmly believe that it's a horrible idea for any male, this day in age, to make the slightest sexual overture to a woman. At some point that overture, no matter how well intentioned, can be taken as an affront and used as a bludgeon against the guy for any reason that strikes the woman's fancy. If the overture is made at work it can be a career ender. If your self employed it can destroy your business. If your a student it can get you kicked out of school and destroy your prospects for the future.

Something as simple as "I see you got your hair cut. It looks nice" can be turned into a sexual advance by a woman with an agenda or even just a woman in a bad mood. Maybe some guy creeped her out in the elevator but your the one that decided to comment on her hair so all that tension gets taken out on you.

The really scary part is that there's no defense for it. If a woman feels like she's the victim of harassment the guy is toast. The reason the guy is toast is because so many women view guys as predators. Like the OP says, there's "tons of them" and "it's not practical to foist them all out", which, of course, implies that if it were feasible that's exactly what should be done.
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Where on earth did you get that from, in a post about people grabbing the privates and worse of people who are strangers, unconscious, or children? In what way is that similar to, "Your haircut looks good"?

Come back when you're ready to address the real issue.
 
MaggieD said:
I don’t mean to be flip, but do guys pinch each others’ butts and invade another’s personal space? ;)
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You'd be surprised by the answer. It's a locker room game and it's not the least bit uncommon.
 
MaggieD said:
Are they copping a feel? You know they’re not...
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Pure speculation on my part but if a guy does what I'm talking about to his buddy then he's being an annoying ass. If he does the exact same thing to a female "buddy" he's going to be branded as a sexual deviant.
 
I think culture needs to change. The partying, clubbing, and dating app scene trains men to view women as objects. Some women give into that, training the guy that all women are like that. Rich guys or powerful people at the top feel that they can do anything because they have money and also likely because many women have slept with them for those reasons (making them think all women want their sexual advances) They think it's ok to make unwanted sexual advances, take a grope when everyone is drunk or take advantage of women. Culture needs to shift where women are seen as sexual equals to straight males (as it is now I believe culture has a male sexual dominance) and that such things are not acceptable or ok. Basically, for straight men have them think "if I was grabbed by a gay guy (something they don't want) how would it make me feel?" And apply that level of thinking to how they treat women.

Culture needs to change, sexual assault needs to be condemned and men need to be trained to treat women as equals in sexuality and that it's never ever ever ok to do anything physical without consent and never imply consent.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Statistically speaking, over 90% of accusations have substantial evidence, and less than 1% seem to be false. These statistics are in line with false reporting for most other crimes, and therefore unremarkable.

There is no benefit to accusing. These people gain nothing but a lot of death threats from doing so. I don't accept the argument that we should be rejecting these things on the basis of a benefit that doesn't exist. I will always treat people who tell me they've been assaulted as authentic.

I am interested in what we do to correct a weak consent culture, not how we should be suspicious of victims.
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A high school friend of mine was falsely accused of rape in college and while it didn't destroy their life, they expelled from their university, they lost their scholarship, and they basically lost a year and half while dealing with legal fees. In the end, their case was investigated and then dropped by the police, and the university admitted that it had violated its own rules during their expulsion. So I'm not exactly so cavalier assuming every person alleging sexual assault or sexual harassment is true. So while I believe that everyone claiming to be a victim does need to be heard, taken seriously, and their case investigated to the fullest extent of the law, there's an important distinction between that and assuming they must be telling the truth.

That being said, when people say that "90%" of the sexual misconduct cases that have been raised in the past few weeks are false accusations, that's just ****ing absurd. Obviously Weinstein preyed on women, obviously Roy Moore preyed on women, and so forth. To deny these things is just ridiculous.
 
digsbe said:
I think culture needs to change. The partying, clubbing, and dating app scene trains men to view women as objects. Some women give into that, training the guy that all women are like that. Rich guys or powerful people at the top feel that they can do anything because they have money and also likely because many women have slept with them for those reasons (making them think all women want their sexual advances) They think it's ok to make unwanted sexual advances, take a grope when everyone is drunk or take advantage of women. Culture needs to shift where women are seen as sexual equals to straight males (as it is now I believe culture has a male sexual dominance) and that such things are not acceptable or ok. Basically, for straight men have them think "if I was grabbed by a gay guy (something they don't want) how would it make me feel?" And apply that level of thinking to how they treat women.

Culture needs to change, sexual assault needs to be condemned and men need to be trained to treat women as equals in sexuality and that it's never ever ever ok to do anything physical without consent and never imply consent.
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I agree with your prescription, but not sure I agree on the pathology. This sort of behavior by men predates our modern party culture. Indeed, it's actually BETTER than it was 50 years ago. Even at the time I was born, there were major issues with women moving into male-dominated fields and being raped basically routinely (mining was a big one where this happened, in the early 90's).

And yeah, this stuff does get expressed in party culture too. But that's not where it starts.

And of course, the bigger picture is, HOW do we instill men with that?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
My post is about people who have basically admitted to the accusations against them, so that is not an issue here.

Please address the post, which is about consent culture, not your suspicion of victims.
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He brought up an important part of the social problem: blaming the victim. While yes false claims do happen, generally a lot of men do not trust the victims claims. In fact I believe that it is a common defense that abusers attempt to use when their victims do come forward. Your lying! and then they make an attempt to discredit the victim, as much as they can. They accuse them of trying to make money or to get at them for some reason. Generally they want to discredit victim in anyway that they can furthering their abusive power trip.

And many men fall for it believing that false accusations could happen to them.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I agree with your prescription, but not sure I agree on the pathology. This sort of behavior by men predates our modern party culture. Indeed, it's actually BETTER than it was 50 years ago. Even at the time I was born, there were major issues with women moving into male-dominated fields and being raped basically routinely (mining was a big one where this happened, in the early 90's).

And yeah, this stuff does get expressed in party culture too. But that's not where it starts.

And of course, the bigger picture is, HOW do we instill men with that?
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It has been going on since the dawn of time, I just feel that currently party culture perpetuates it. People go to parties, get drunk/high, then sex is expected. It appears many cases of sexual assault are in regards to inebriation or at a night club. I'm not saying these places are bad, but the culture there encourages such things in my opinion.
 
FieldTheorist said:
A high school friend of mine was falsely accused of rape in college and while it didn't destroy their life, they expelled from their university, they lost their scholarship, and they basically lost a year and half while dealing with legal fees. In the end, their case was investigated and then dropped by the police, and the university admitted that it had violated its own rules during their expulsion. So I'm not exactly so cavalier assuming every person alleging sexual assault or sexual harassment is true. So while I believe that everyone claiming to be a victim does need to be heard, taken seriously, and their case investigated to the fullest extent of the law, there's an important distinction between that and assuming they must be telling the truth.

That being said, when people say that "90%" of the sexual misconduct cases that have been raised in the past few weeks are false accusations, that's just ****ing absurd. Obviously Weinstein preyed on women, obviously Roy Moore preyed on women, and so forth. To deny these things is just ridiculous.
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As I said earlier, yes, these cases will happen routinely in a country as big as 320 million people. That doesn't mean it's not rare. It means it's a big country.

Also, offering immediate support encourages early reporting. The earlier the report happens, the more likely there is to be evidence.

This means not only is the victim less likely to experience psychological damage, but it ALSO means the accused has a BETTER CHANCE of being exonerated if the accusation is false.

It is better for everyone to offer immediate support.
 
digsbe said:
It has been going on since the dawn of time, I just feel that currently party culture perpetuates it. People go to parties, get drunk/high, then sex is expected. It appears many cases of sexual assault are in regards to inebriation or at a night club. I'm not saying these places are bad, but the culture there encourages such things in my opinion.
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Nope. The vast majority of sexual assaults happen while sober, by a person known to the victim, at their own home. Usually a friend, colleague, family member, or partner.

One of the many social myths we have about rape culture -- that women stumble into it by not being "careful enough." In reality, rape is usually a product of asserting emotional power, not some sort of misaimed lust.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Like I said earlier, yes, there are about 10% that lack evidence.
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This is also incorrect. As I linked to you above, the 2-10% is the number for which we have enough evidence against to demonstrate a false claim.

The number for which we have no evidence runs up to about half, indicating that the amount of claims for which there is demonstrative evidence is (ballpark) 40-75%. That's a pretty sizeable margin, which I think drives home our remaining relative uncertainty on this topic.


Even if we take the lowest ball estimate, the odds are still massively in favor of an allegation being true.
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They are heavily in favor, certainly, and I solidly concur with your point that - when you are dealing with someone reporting an assault right in front of you, you should respond as though you believe them, and get them help.

That, however, is not the same as us sitting back and devising policy for 320 million people.

Screw-ups are guaranteed, yes, but my point is they happen a lot more than they have to due to a weak understanding of what consent IS.

Consent is not lack of resistance. It is either enthusiastic participation, or real communicated agreement (either-or, or both, depending on the circumstance).
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I would non-concur with you here. Consent is not enthusiastic participation or a verbal/written expressed agreement; people participate willingly in activities (sexual and non) they aren't terribly enthusiastic about all the time.

When my grandmother wanted a hug from my 5 year old, and he thought old people were weird and wanted to play with his car, for example, I explained to him that giving people hugs is a way to make them happy, and this was a way we could be loving to others. He wasn't thrilled with hugging grandma, but I'm more interested in raising a son who respects and cares' for his elders and those around him than I am raising a son who thinks no one has the right to pull him away from his toy car. And he learned the more important lesson I was trying to teach, and is pretty good at caring for others. That's wasn't sexual assault, that was parenting.

I mean, here's something I like to ask people.

Is there not something inherently sexy about someone asking to kiss you for the first time?

Not feminist, not progressive, just, is that not in and of itself, sexy?

I've had that happen a few times. It IS.
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....I think that may just be you. At least, I don't "get" that, and my wife is now looking at me like I'm a moron (to be fair, this is a common occurrence).
 
Lutherf said:
Pure speculation on my part but if a guy does what I'm talking about to his buddy then he's being an annoying ass. If he does the exact same thing to a female "buddy" he's going to be branded as a sexual deviant.
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I don’t understand. On the one hand you’re saying it’s locker room games. On the other, you’re saying a guy doing that to another guy is being an annoying ass...?

A man who pats a woman on the butt is not a sexual deviant. I guess he sure could be, but certainly not branded as such for a butt pat.
 
cpwill said:
This is also incorrect. As I linked to you above, the 2-10% is the number for which we have enough evidence against to demonstrate a false claim.

The number for which we have no evidence runs up to about half, indicating that the amount of claims for which there is demonstrative evidence is (ballpark) 40-75%. That's a pretty sizeable margin, which I think drives home our remaining relative uncertainty on this topic.

They are heavily in favor, certainly, and I solidly concur with your point that - when you are dealing with someone reporting an assault right in front of you, you should respond as though you believe them, and get them help.

That, however, is not the same as us sitting back and devising policy for 320 million people.

I would non-concur with you here. Consent is not enthusiastic participation or a verbal/written expressed agreement; people participate willingly in activities (sexual and non) they aren't terribly enthusiastic about all the time.

When my grandmother wanted a hug from my 5 year old, and he thought old people were weird and wanted to play with his car, for example, I explained to him that giving people hugs is a way to make them happy, and this was a way we could be loving to others. He wasn't thrilled with hugging grandma, but I'm more interested in raising a son who respects and cares' for his elders and those around him than I am raising a son who thinks no one has the right to pull him away from his toy car. And he learned the more important lesson I was trying to teach, and is pretty good at caring for others. That's wasn't sexual assault, that was parenting.

....I think that may just be you. At least, I don't "get" that, and my wife is now looking at me like I'm a moron (to be fair, this is a common occurrence).
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You're being a bit selective, here. Your link says the main reason for these roughly half that were closed is because...

the complainant had stopped cooperating with investigators.
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Do you really think that's unrelated to the social pressure against people who report? With the number of threads we've seen on here with women who report being run right out of their towns?

Anyway, I think there is a massive difference between showing empathy to the elderly, and having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with. Yes, we do things we don't want to do sometimes when it serves compassion to do so, but that is not a good argument for why it's ok to pressure someone into something as significant as sex.

It may also be true sometimes we agree to do something because we know our partner likes it, even if we are ambivalent. But if you hate it, I would expect any decent partner to be willing to shift on that.

Heh, I imagine the scenaio doesn't work as well with someone you're married to. ;) Try this: first date, gazing into their eyes, and, "I'd really like to kiss you." Come on, that's hot. Come ON.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
As I said earlier, yes, these cases will happen routinely in a country as big as 320 million people. That doesn't mean it's not rare. It means it's a big country.

Also, offering immediate support encourages early reporting. The earlier the report happens, the more likely there is to be evidence.

This means not only is the victim less likely to experience psychological damage, but it ALSO means the accused has a BETTER CHANCE of being exonerated if the accusation is false.

It is better for everyone to offer immediate support.
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On this we of course agree.
 
MaggieD said:
I don’t understand. On the one hand you’re saying it’s locker room games. On the other, you’re saying a guy doing that to another guy is being an annoying ass...?

A man who pats a woman on the butt is not a sexual deviant. I guess he sure could be, but certainly not branded as such for a butt pat.
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Let me put it to you this way, if Al Franken grabbed my chest (or anything else) as I was sleeping because he figured it would make a funny picture he'd be an annoying ass. If he did that to a female reporter he'd be a deviant.
 
Lutherf said:
Let me put it to you this way, if Al Franken grabbed my chest (or anything else) as I was sleeping because he figured it would make a funny picture he'd be an annoying ass. If he did that to a female reporter he'd be a deviant.
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That's not quite equivalent though. What if he grabbed your junk instead? The male chest is not sexualized like female breasts are.
 
Reference post but not calling out poster specifically. I dont think he's an exception:
CanadaJohn said:
I can't stand Franken, although I'd accept that the man has grown as a Senator. But this just seems pretty stupid to me. When did Americans become such sexually shackled victims and prudes? What young man, who isn't gay, hasn't done something awkward or inappropriate to a female friend/acquaintance as a joke, for a laugh, or out of an over abundance of testosterone and occasionally booze/drugs? The pic of Franken simply looks to me like a college prank, similar to any number of hazing or initiation type stupidity that goes on in ever college everywhere.,

Just like the pet rock, cabbage patch dolls, the slinky, etc. this sexual victimhood fad will soon pass and you'll feel silly you bought into it.

Lighten up folks before it's too late.
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This is the attitude, IMO, of many males in western society (if not globally)...the entitlement to casually fondle and objectify women to "the point where they think they can get away with it." It's an entitlement and entrenched mentality...and I'll agree hormonally-driven (but still controllable) ...since prehistoric times firmly ingrained in males.

In another thread a poster admitted that he and most males, in his opinion, remained 17 yr old boys in many respects, all their lives.

Nothing is going to change the past...and most of us women have had to deal with this groping and sexual innuendo and touching and then *shaming* when the guys say 'we couldnt take a joke,' or 'it's no big deal, dont be a bitch about it' or 'she's just on the rag,'....but going forward maybe culturally parents will teach their sons that this is not acceptable.
 
MaggieD said:
I don’t mean to be flip, but do guys pinch each others’ butts and invade another’s personal space? ;)
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I've had to have words with other men who seemed to think smacking me on the ass was some sort of friendly joke, which I have never found acceptable. To the point a couple of fellas that didn't believe me when I said "don't" had it proven to them in a more painful manner.
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, I did. No, I didn’t. ;)

Were these touches, pats, space invasions sexual?? Come on, give me a break.
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Any invasion of a woman's space by a man can be interpreted as sexual, should the woman decide to make an issue of it.
 
apdst said:
Any invasion of a woman's space by a man can be interpreted as sexual, should the woman decide to make an issue of it.
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I’m not sure I agree, but there are people who quite deliberately close up personal space. When they do, it can be seen from across the room. And it makes a woman’s skin crawl.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
There are a LOT of men like that. We all know tons of them. They may not be quite as bad because they lack the power that means other people tend to just stay silent, but the underlying structure that could make them that way is there. The underlying structure that means they don't realize they should be stopping when they say stuff like, "When I have sex with her, she just lays there and tunes me out" is there. I bet a lot of you just stopped right now and re-read that sentence. Yeah, that's a consent violation. Don't get defensive on me -- I'm not out to hunt DP's witches, I'm just saying, because it's true. Just sit with it.

And most of these men are not bad men. They are humans who were trained to behave this way. They were trained that consent means permission or lack of resistance, not desire or actual agreement. We were all trained that way. Women too -- for those of us who are assertive enough to ever notice it.

So what do we do with these men?

It's not feasible to foist them all out. They make up a huge chunk of the population.

And frankly, I don't think it's right either. Anyone who's read that old electric shock study knows that even good people can be trained to do bad things. And I think that's what most of these men are. It's not right to train them this way, and then act surprised when that's how they behave.

I've seen these sorts of men have a sudden realization of a consent violation with me, an assertive woman who's not afraid to push. The abject shock and horror that washes over their face as it finally clicks in their brain is sad to watch.

They still did the thing. I don't let that go.

But I do understand why they are that way. And if they'll do the work, I'll be the teacher.

What do we do with decent ment whom we've trained to act indecently? Not politically, not for points, not for glory... for society.
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I think that this article looking at, what people of different age, sex and nation consider to be harassment. https://www.economist.com/blogs/gra.../neu/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch
 
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apdst said:
First, we have to make sure the charge is authentic. I'm seeing these accusations become weaponized and a male accused of impropriety has zero defense.
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I would say you are quite right. In The Economist there is a statistic i linked earlier that shows that a woman under 30 in France is 25 percent probable to consider it harassment, im you ask her to habe a drink with her.
 
Captain Adverse said:
All I can say is, I can't wait until men realize they can start pushing back and point out when women who feel, (solely by virtue of their sex) that they can grope, fondle, entice, abuse, assault, and otherwise sexually molest men pretty much at will without consequences, are themselves perpetrators of sexual misconduct and sexual assault...and BE BELIEVED as readily as women are when they cry "foul" against men.

That will be the day when real "equality" is demonstrated.
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Did you realize that the probability of a femal under 30 will consider it harassment in France if you look at her breasts is about 70 percent?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
There are a LOT of men like that. We all know tons of them. They may not be quite as bad because they lack the power that means other people tend to just stay silent, but the underlying structure that could make them that way is there. The underlying structure that means they don't realize they should be stopping when they say stuff like, "When I have sex with her, she just lays there and tunes me out" is there. I bet a lot of you just stopped right now and re-read that sentence. Yeah, that's a consent violation. Don't get defensive on me -- I'm not out to hunt DP's witches, I'm just saying, because it's true. Just sit with it.

And most of these men are not bad men. They are humans who were trained to behave this way. They were trained that consent means permission or lack of resistance, not desire or actual agreement. We were all trained that way. Women too -- for those of us who are assertive enough to ever notice it.

So what do we do with these men?

It's not feasible to foist them all out. They make up a huge chunk of the population.

And frankly, I don't think it's right either. Anyone who's read that old electric shock study knows that even good people can be trained to do bad things. And I think that's what most of these men are. It's not right to train them this way, and then act surprised when that's how they behave.

I've seen these sorts of men have a sudden realization of a consent violation with me, an assertive woman who's not afraid to push. The abject shock and horror that washes over their face as it finally clicks in their brain is sad to watch.

They still did the thing. I don't let that go.

But I do understand why they are that way. And if they'll do the work, I'll be the teacher.

What do we do with decent ment whom we've trained to act indecently? Not politically, not for points, not for glory... for society.
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It's tough being a guy in polite society. Hormones rage, brutality is our nature, privilege our expectation...now you ask us to behave. Wtf? How the hell are we supposed to do that?
 
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