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The Shambolic State of Mental Health Care; How Many More Lives Down the Drain?

JBG

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The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart (link). The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.
 
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart (link). The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

We are what 50 years into this plan to close the hospitals and put the mentally ill on the streets so that they can usually/often end up in jail supervised by jailers who have no interest or training in treating them, nor most importantly the money to do so.

I am not noticing too many Americans with a problem with how things are going.

SADLY
 
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart (link). The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

"Locked up" might not be necessary if we can get a handle on diagnosis and treatment.
 
We are what 50 years into this plan to close the hospitals and put the mentally ill on the streets so that they can usually/often end up in jail supervised by jailers who have no interest or training in treating them, nor most importantly the money to do so.

I am not noticing too many Americans with a problem with how things are going.

SADLY
The residents of Sutherland Springs might disagree.
 
The residents of Sutherland Springs might disagree.

That being 600-26 people....seems like most of the rest of us have moved on to the next calamity.

There are so many now as civilization collapses.
 
That being 600-26 people....seems like most of the rest of us have moved on to the next calamity.

There are so many now as civilization collapses.

Save your "civilization collapsing" bull**** for someone stupid enough to buy it.

Yes, the state of mental health care in this country has been terrible since about the mid-1970s, when institutions were closed to save the government a few bucks. But this apocalyptic view of society you seem to hold is pure fiction.
 
Save your "civilization collapsing" bull**** for someone stupid enough to buy it.

Yes, the state of mental health care in this country has been terrible since about the mid-1970s, when institutions were closed to save the government a few bucks. But this apocalyptic view of society you seem to hold is pure fiction.

You know Kobie I try to like you but you constantly disappoint.

This is not the place.
 
You know Kobie I try to like you but you constantly disappoint.

This is not the place.

Dude, how many times do I have to tell you that I don't care if you like me, and that I'll never like you?
 
We most likly have just south of a Half Million people who suffer from mental defect to the degree that we know that they need help in jails, being minded by jailers who are none to happy to have them because they are a lot of trouble and this is not what jails are for and they dont have the money to treat them but almost no one has cared as we have increasingly imposed suffering on the mentally ill that is sometimes on par with torture because our systems suck.

ALMOST NO ONE CARES.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...psychiatric-hospitals/?utm_term=.e5f758af3d4b
 
How does the mental health system bear the brunt for any of these incidents? There is no evidence they were turned away due to lack of available services or that people deemed still a threat to themselves or others were turned away.

What exactly are you advocating for with regard to the mental health system and any of these violent incidents?
 
And look how this thread goes almost nowhere.

Because we barely care.

WE SUCK
 
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart (link). The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

Finally, someone who wants to talk about the real problem instead of thinking that gun control is the answer to these very people in your post.
 
Finally, someone who wants to talk about the real problem instead of thinking that gun control is the answer to these very people in your post.
We agree. Befriending and treating those people involves unpleasantness and hard, continuing work that isn't politically sexy. Pushing an unfunded bill condemning "gun violence" feels good but accomplishes little.
 
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart (link). The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

As I recall, it was the ACLU that headed up the project to turn all those mental patients out onto the street. But the real driving forces behind it were the governments that were eager to be free of the financial burden of maintaining the mental institutions. Having destroyed all those institutions it is probably next to impossible to get them going again.

Having said that, there really is no proven way to prevent suicide or homicide by the mentally ill even in those who talk about it with health care professionals. In the past these people would be subjected to brain surgery, cingulotomy, so that they'd be rendered too apathetic to kill anyone. Nowadays we regard that as barbaric. You can treat them with electroshock to the point that they can't remember why they wanted to kill anybody for a while, but that approach is frowned upon by the people who style themselves as advocates for the mentally ill. Many of these advocates actually do think it's better for the mentally ill to be thrown in jail when they do something criminal than to be treated in an institution.

Sorry, but some people are crazy, and they are on the loose. A reasonable amount of paranoia in the conduct of one's affairs is in order.
 
Many of these advocates actually do think it's better for the mentally ill to be thrown in jail when they do something criminal than to be treated in an institution.

Sorry, but some people are crazy, and they are on the loose. A reasonable amount of paranoia in the conduct of one's affairs is in order.
That about says it all.
 
How does the mental health system bear the brunt for any of these incidents? There is no evidence they were turned away due to lack of available services or that people deemed still a threat to themselves or others were turned away.

What exactly are you advocating for with regard to the mental health system and any of these violent incidents?
Compulsory, forced care, if need be confinement.
 
Compulsory, forced care, if need be confinement.
That occurs...when one is deemed by a judge on advise of a doctor to be mentally incompetent. So...you are simply advocating for the existing law then?
 
That occurs...when one is deemed by a judge on advise of a doctor to be mentally incompetent. So...you are simply advocating for the existing law then?
I am advocating that existing law actually be used. That particular body of law is a dead letter.
 
The problem with mental health care is the stigma that revolves around it. We haven't developed a way of saying "He's cured!" Consequently, if you get treatment for any mental health related issue, you will always be "that guy" (or gal). So, rather than seek help, most people self medicate with alcohol, drugs or food. I don't see anything improving until the public perception on mental health changes. You can't help people if they don't want it.
 
I am advocating that existing law actually be used. That particular body of law is a dead letter.
Not sure what your experience with it is but it isnt where I come from. Perhaps your state systems are overwhelmed. But I agree. Where existing law is in place and followed it tends to be effective. Of course there will always be outliers. For example, individuals that can clearly demonstrate reasoned and rational thought may very well be homicidal or suicidal...and not show outward symptoms. In that case, no matter what interviews you conduct or what your gut tells you otherwise, legally, you dont have a Constitutional ground to hold them against their will.
 
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through the Texas church and killings other killings that are in the headlines.


We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

Stalin had a comprehensive government run mental health care system. We could learn from it.
 
The problem with mental health care is the stigma that revolves around it. We haven't developed a way of saying "He's cured!" Consequently, if you get treatment for any mental health related issue, you will always be "that guy" (or gal). So, rather than seek help, most people self medicate with alcohol, drugs or food. I don't see anything improving until the public perception on mental health changes. You can't help people if they don't want it.
Maybe I'll just stop saying this because the point is apparently lost. Using mass shootings where individuals are RECEIVING MENTAL HEALTH CARE as a springboard for an argument that there isnt adequate available care or that there is stigma attached to receiving care doesnt make any sense.
 
Maybe I'll just stop saying this because the point is apparently lost. Using mass shootings where individuals are RECEIVING MENTAL HEALTH CARE as a springboard for an argument that there isnt adequate available care or that there is stigma attached to receiving care doesnt make any sense.

The symptom isn't the problem but the problem beget the symptom.
 
The problem with mental health care is the stigma that revolves around it. We haven't developed a way of saying "He's cured!" Consequently, if you get treatment for any mental health related issue, you will always be "that guy" (or gal). So, rather than seek help, most people self medicate with alcohol, drugs or food. I don't see anything improving until the public perception on mental health changes. You can't help people if they don't want it.
Quite true. Unfortunately before the Nirvana of mentally ill people seeking help on their own arrives treatment must, on occasion, be compelled.
Not sure what your experience with it is but it isnt where I come from. Perhaps your state systems are overwhelmed. But I agree. Where existing law is in place and followed it tends to be effective. Of course there will always be outliers. For example, individuals that can clearly demonstrate reasoned and rational thought may very well be homicidal or suicidal...and not show outward symptoms. In that case, no matter what interviews you conduct or what your gut tells you otherwise, legally, you dont have a Constitutional ground to hold them against their will.
Most states' systems are probably overwhelmed since the vast majority of compelled "patients" lack resources to pay going rates of say $200 per hour or far more in urban areas.

Maybe I'll just stop saying this because the point is apparently lost. Using mass shootings where individuals are RECEIVING MENTAL HEALTH CARE as a springboard for an argument that there isnt adequate available care or that there is stigma attached to receiving care doesnt make any sense.
Then the providers have a serious Tarasoff problem.
 
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