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Sexual assault vs harassment

joG said:
Don't you think yhat harassment must be repetitive over some time and more than just lewd remarks, as unappetizing as that might be?
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I think so. I think if your boss makes a pass then it can probably be considered harassment due to the power disparity. If someone who doesn't have power over you makes a pass I think it is only harassment if they don't stop once they have been told to stop. Maybe.
 
ecofarm said:
No. Oral sex was always sex. It's absurd for you to claim otherwise. Whipping it out and masturbating in front of unwilling witnesses has always been a sex crime.

I don't know the source of your confusion about what constitutes sex and assault, but it's very creepy.
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Clinton claimed as a lawyer that oral was not sex. That corresponds to its bioevolutionary impact. No reproduction.
As to exebitionism I have always thought our society somewhat puritanical.
 
joG said:
As to exebitionism I have always thought our society somewhat puritanical.
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Assault is not exhibitionism. You don't care about consent?
 
ecofarm said:
Assault is not exhibitionism. You don't care about consent?
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I don't think I had commented on that in that post. How did you read that into it?
 
Skeptic Bob said:
First, let me say I think the spotlight being shined on Hollywood is a good thing. The more people learn that their actions have consequences the better.

Something I have noticed in the news coverage and conversations is how the words sexual assault and harassment are being used interchangeably. This bothers me because I feel it could lessen the outrage of actual assault.

To me unwanted sexual comments or flashing or what Louis CK did is sexual harassment. But people are calling what Louis CK did "assault". What he did was bad but if he didn't touch them or pressure them to have sex then how is it assault?

I am curious how others see the distinction or not. I'll post another thread about what constitutes a power disparity.
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In law, assault is considered:

a :a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact....​

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assault

so you can see that physical contact isn't necessary for assault to be committed.
 
joG said:
I don't think I had commented on that in that post. How did you read that into it?
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Exhibitionism is legal and widely accepted. I've been to nude beaches with girlfriends many times. Been to Fantasy Fest. Been to the Columbus Day Regatta party in the Bay. There's Mardi Gras. There are nudist colonies and groups.

The events of late find people condemning crime, not nudity in approved places.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I think so. I think if your boss makes a pass then it can probably be considered harassment due to the power disparity. If someone who doesn't have power over you makes a pass I think it is only harassment if they don't stop once they have been told to stop. Maybe.
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Odd. Though I would never make a pass in a dependence situation and think it stupid, I do not think it should be considered harassment as such. Considering the number of marriages of secretary and boss, however, we seem to think it is de facto okay.

Also, I think the way this discussion is developing potentially a career killer for women. If you cannot be alone in a room with a woman for fear of accusations at a later date, you cannot easily have a confidential exchange. But you need that for persons on the team that hold higher levels of responsibility. If you put yourself in personal danger with such meetings, you are ill advised to promote women beyond monday morning meeting levels.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
First, let me say I think the spotlight being shined on Hollywood is a good thing. The more people learn that their actions have consequences the better.

Something I have noticed in the news coverage and conversations is how the words sexual assault and harassment are being used interchangeably. This bothers me because I feel it could lessen the outrage of actual assault.

To me unwanted sexual comments or flashing or what Louis CK did is sexual harassment. But people are calling what Louis CK did "assault". What he did was bad but if he didn't touch them or pressure them to have sex then how is it assault?

I am curious how others see the distinction or not. I'll post another thread about what constitutes a power disparity.
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As a female who spent decades working in positions ranging from entry level to mid-management, this is my definition by my own experiences. When my boss calls me into his office where one or more other men are seated with him, and says "Take your clothes off and lay on the floor" or "Give Bob a blow job, and he'll award our company a fat contract" (yeah... both these things, and more, were said to me), that's sexual harassment.

When a boss comes up behind me, pushes me into a wall and grinds his pelvis against my ass, reaches for a file I'm holding and "accidently" grabs my breast instead, that's sexual assault.
 
ecofarm said:
Exhibitionism is legal and widely accepted. I've been to nude beaches with girlfriends many times. Been to Fantasy Fest. Been to the Columbus Day Regatta party in the Bay. There's Mardi Gras. There are nudist colonies and groups.

The events of late find people condemning crime, not nudity in approved places.
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I would say that masturbating in public is exebitionism, while nude beaches are less so.
 
joG said:
I would say that masturbating in public is exebitionism, while nude beaches are less so.
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You believe society should be cool with public masturbation?
 
joG said:
I thought the debate was in the 1960s and early 1970s.
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The feminists deciding and us deciding are two different things. And now of course they are in a tizzy because Youth acceptance of the dictate that oral sex is sex is in great decline, gone from 40% in 1991 to 20% today according to one report, though over all 70% of us still agree with the feminists:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/health/misconceptions-oral-sex-stds.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/06/clinton-lewinsky-effect-s_n_527496.html
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The feminists deciding and us deciding are two different things. And now of course they are in a tizzy because Youth acceptance of the dictate that oral sex is sex is in great decline, gone from 40% in 1991 to 20% today according to one report, though over all 70% of us still agree with the feminists:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/health/misconceptions-oral-sex-stds.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/06/clinton-lewinsky-effect-s_n_527496.html
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Maybe we're mixed up.
 
DiAnna said:
As a female who spent decades working in positions ranging from entry level to mid-management, this is my definition by my own experiences. When my boss calls me into his office where one or more other men are seated with him, and says "Take your clothes off and lay on the floor" or "Give Bob a blow job, and he'll award our company a fat contract" (yeah... both these things, and more, were said to me), that's sexual harassment.

When a boss comes up behind me, pushes me into a wall and grinds his pelvis against my ass, reaches for a file I'm holding and "accidently" grabs my breast instead, that's sexual assault.
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Yikes! I could see how many women might consider your first example assault (attempted assault?) given the threatening nature of it. It sucks you went through that.
 
ecofarm said:
You believe society should be cool with public masturbation?
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Here I go, trying to find those lines again. :)

What do you consider more egregious: public masturbation, or a couple having sex in public?
 
ecofarm said:
You believe society should be cool with public masturbation?
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Do I yhink it should be a crime? Not really. Do I want tonhave much to do with people that do it in the road? Not really. I don't see it does any damage but it does seem volgar ans unappetising.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Yikes! I could see how many women might consider your first example assault (attempted assault?) given the threatening nature of it. It sucks you went through that.
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Me and probably every other woman who's spent a couple of decades in the workplace... any work place. My first example was just an alpha male who got sauced up at lunch and liked to show off for his buddies by humiliating the nearest female. When it was just the two of us, his raucous sexual remarks were met by a cold stare and "Shut up, Byron." Insulting him in front of clients could have been a job-crusher (to my boss's boss), so I'd just stare at him until he told me the business reason he called me in, or on occasion whirling on my heel and closing the door to his office behind me.

Women become adept at handling verbal harassment, but when you are grabbed, pinched, pushed against the wall, that escalates to assault. These are only my personal definitions; the law and others may see it differently.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Here I go, trying to find those lines again. :)

What do you consider more egregious: public masturbation, or a couple having sex in public?
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Sex. That's two people committing a crime not just one.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
First, let me say I think the spotlight being shined on Hollywood is a good thing. The more people learn that their actions have consequences the better.

Something I have noticed in the news coverage and conversations is how the words sexual assault and harassment are being used interchangeably. This bothers me because I feel it could lessen the outrage of actual assault.

To me unwanted sexual comments or flashing or what Louis CK did is sexual harassment. But people are calling what Louis CK did "assault". What he did was bad but if he didn't touch them or pressure them to have sex then how is it assault?

I am curious how others see the distinction or not. I'll post another thread about what constitutes a power disparity.
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Obviously anything sexual impropriety that involves unwanted contact is assault, not harassment and vice-versa.
 
joG said:
Maybe we're mixed up.
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If by We you mean Us...America....this is very clearly true.

Our unhealthy and mixed up views on the Erotic Arts are legendary, and are getting worse in a hurry.
 
joG said:
Do I yhink it should be a crime? Not really. Do I want tonhave much to do with people that do it in the road? Not really. I don't see it does any damage but it does seem volgar ans unappetising.
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So public masturbation is cool but, let me guess... gay pride parades are an abomination?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
If by We you mean Us...America....this is very clearly true.

Our unhealthy and mixed up views on the Erotic Arts are legendary, and are getting worse in a hurry.
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Sexual harassment and assault are "erotic arts"?
 
DiAnna said:
Me and probably every other woman who's spent a couple of decades in the workplace... any work place. My first example was just an alpha male who got sauced up at lunch and liked to show off for his buddies by humiliating the nearest female. When it was just the two of us, his raucous sexual remarks were met by a cold stare and "Shut up, Byron." Insulting him in front of clients could have been a job-crusher (to my boss's boss), so I'd just stare at him until he told me the business reason he called me in, or on occasion whirling on my heel and closing the door to his office behind me.

Women become adept at handling verbal harassment, but when you are grabbed, pinched, pushed against the wall, that escalates to assault. These are only my personal definitions; the law and others may see it differently.
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Nowadays, any male manager having a private meeting with a female employee should have video and audio of the meeting; for his protection and hers.
 
ecofarm said:
Sex. That's two people committing a crime not just one.
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Interesting. For some reason I would be more disturbed by the person masturbating. I'm not sure why.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Interesting. For some reason I would be more disturbed by the person masturbating. I'm not sure why.
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Two people having sex, we know what they're thinking.
 
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