People Believe Whatever They Want and Feel Is True Regardless of Journalism

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

Both parties "rig" primaries for the candidate they think can win. The problem with Clinton is that the DNC ignored the political tide against her. The DNC can support whomever they like, though. Bernie was never going to win the election.

As for the analog to the Trump team's crimes being ignored by the right, that is a better example of what you are talking about. We're talking about treason there, undermining the spirit of democracy for political gain. Obviously, it's much worse to collude with a foreign government to pollute the information stream with lies and to hack the voting software.

D_NATURED said:

Both parties "rig" primaries for the candidate they think can win. The problem with Clinton is that the DNC ignored the political tide against her. The DNC can support whomever they like, though. Bernie was never going to win the election.

As for the analog to the Trump team's crimes being ignored by the right, that is a better example of what you are talking about. We're talking about treason there, undermining the spirit of democracy for political gain. Obviously, it's much worse to collude with a foreign government to pollute the information stream with lies and to hack the voting software.

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Right, both illustrate the point that in the face of a report the person cannot accept, because it tugs on the strings that hold their identity together, they choose to pretend that the report doesn't exist or that it is coming from a den of lies.

We believe what we wanna believe. ~Petty

ecofarm said:

We believe what we wanna believe. -Petty

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It's true. I'm sure there are things that I'm 'immovable' on as well. I'm sure I believe in some theories or ideas, that are not observed in reality. However, I try to distance myself from my beliefs so that I don't ignore evidence to the contrary.

I mean, you could tell me the sky was purple, and I would be like, "sure, if that's what you see." But, then if I looked up and saw a purple sky, I would hope to be open-minded enough to accept that new outcome, even in the face of my expectation of a blue one.

My lean says “slightly conservative”, but I think they should lock all the pols up and pitch the key. In my lifetime the political choices, in the general election, have slowly eroded in the quality sense. Lord help us if it continues and 2020’s choice is worse than the one we just had!

Winston said:

Right, both illustrate the point that in the face of a report the person cannot accept, because it tugs on the strings that hold their identity together, they choose to pretend that the report doesn't exist or that it is coming from a den of lies.

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On the Brazile stuff, we all knew the story. She seems to have added a little insider insight and opinion, but the idea the dems wanted Clinton to be the next nominee has been pretty clear since Obama beat her out in '08. By the same token, the Repubs wanted jeB or Rubio. Trump surprised the Repubs and Sanders surprised the dems. The Trump wave was stronger than the resistance it met, that's all. Even now, the GOP would impeach Trump in a heartbeat to get Pence if Trump didn't have his loyal base.

I've always said the dems were beyond stupid to run someone the GOP had spent 25 years smearing. I don't think Sanders would have won even if he was the nominee, but we've been over that before - it's a different topic.

Winston said:

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

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I think people who are rigid and hard-lined in their ideology are lying to themselves that they don't change. Just take a look at the most basic concept of small government conservative. This concept has been literally wiped from the discussion now that Trump is in power and practically a faux dictator.

I, myself have gone through the transition twice in my young life. I'm only 28. When I first started going on discussion boards I fell for all these CTs and I whole heartedly believed most of it until I realized how stupid I sounded once other CTs starting popping up and I realized how I sounded.

For the years after I was still a HUGE conservative and fell for lots of right wing propaganda. Watched Fox News throughout the Obama years.

Now I'm rabidly anti-trump and hate just about everything he does even if what he does I support, I just hate that he is the one who is doing these things, and that some people think he is the only one that could have done these things.

Those who do not change with the times, are due to get left behind.

Winston said:

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

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Neurochemical addiction in those with "follower" genetics.

Our brains addict us to behaviors they deem pro-survival with various addictive neurochemicals. A squirrel hiding a nut, a hoarder starting another stack of newspapers and a billionaire doing anything he can to get another billion are all working for the same reward.

Hunger for power, attraction to risky behaviors, sex addiction are all neurochemical addictions.

And "followers" have theirs too. Most of us are followers. If we were all leaders we'd just fight all the time.

Followers are rewarded for following behaviors, which include believing what their "leaders" tell them.

Admitting to themselves their leaders suck would cause them to lose their happy juice supply. So like all addicts they justify, rationalize. Anything to keep the joy juice flowing.

Winston said:

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

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The first step of the solution for sure is for the So-Called Journalists to start doing journalism.

Once that is done we can move on to step #2.

What if...? said:

Neurochemical addiction in those with "follower" genetics.

Our brains addict us to behaviors they deem pro-survival with various addictive neurochemicals. A squirrel hiding a nut, a hoarder starting another stack of newspapers and a billionaire doing anything he can to get another billion are all working for the same reward.

Hunger for power, attraction to risky behaviors, sex addiction are all neurochemical addictions.

And "followers" have theirs too. Most of us are followers. If we were all leaders we'd just fight all the time.

Followers are rewarded for following behaviors, which include believing what their "leaders" tell them.

Admitting to themselves their leaders suck would cause them to lose their happy juice supply. So like all addicts they justify, rationalize. Anything to keep the joy juice flowing.

Click to expand...

Interesting and compelling take on the topic.


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Winston said:

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

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Not a knock on you, but a question I like to ask whenever someone starts a conversation like this: Do you think you are guilty of this?

Winston said:

Interesting and compelling take on the topic.

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Such a follower response... :2razz:

jmotivator said:

Not a knock on you, but a question I like to ask whenever someone starts a conversation like this: Do you think you are guilty of this?

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Yes, I'll admit there are likely things I believe that are not observed in reality.

The problem is so widespread and perhaps fundamentally human.. I would be an anomaly to not be a part of it.


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People are irrational creatures. I think that because we have created so much we sometimes forget that we are just animals. I share the frustration when it seems like so many people are dead set in their different beliefs when only one of them should be right in a lot of situations. Sometimes it can feel a little silly to debate issues as emotional as politics. It can be like a never ending stream of talking past each other.

More and more I've been thinking that self-reflection is one of the most important things somebody can do. In a world full of misinformation it can be important to ground yourself regularly. I'd also like to give a shout out to meditation. It sounds corny, but I really feel it has helped me clear my head and stay more positive.

Winston said:

I think this website has contributed a fair amount to my cynicism. But, if anything it's shown me that people on the left, right, and center, will believe, pretty much whatever they want to believe, regardless of reporting and studies.

I've had an inkling of this cognitive dissonance phenomenon, considering I've been raised around Christians who think the Earth is only a few thousand years old and penguins walked from Antartica to the Middle East to get on an Ark. Really doesn't matter if you show them how things don't make sense, they keep on believing whatever they want to believe.

What if the belief is shattered? What if they find out that they were wrong the whole time? What would happen psychologically to them that safeguards the belief from all intellectual threats? Mental breakdown? Mid life crisis? Become a monk?

This is true of Republicans and Democrats. Brazile coming out and saying that the Democrats rigged the primary, has not moved any left wing partisans on that issue. They cannot accept that their party rigged their primary. Brazile is just a faker who is doing it for the publicity.

Mueller bitch slapping the Trump campaign, also, is meaningless to the right wing partisans, because the investigation is a witch hunt, the news is fake, and there's nothing to see here. It's our turn to screw up the country so, quit yer belly-achin' about the election.

Any thoughts?

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For me it is about the ideology of conservatism compared to progressive/ liberal....I just can not wrap my head around the general conservative ideology, but because I don't agree with conservative ideology doesn't make everything about conservatism bad or wrong. And vice/versa.....Also, being a liberal doesn't make me want to agree with every Democrat or liberal out there. Nor does it make me discard every Republican or conservative out there. And I hate watching the liberal media (MSNBC, CNN) nor can I stand the conservative media (Fox News)...The bias stench is just way too strong. I have my core beliefs and I developed these beliefs with out the help of liberal media or politicians.

The left wing partisan Clinton supporters that are denying the Brazile claims make up about 30% of population and they are the same as what we're seeing from right wing partisan Trump supporters which make up about another 30% of the population. The remaining 40% I believe have a clear understanding of reality....

Winston said:

Yes, I'll admit there are likely things I believe that are not observed in reality.

The problem is so widespread and perhaps fundamentally human.. I would be an anomaly to not be a part of it.

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Truth. I asked because your examples carried more certitude than I feel the evidence warrants.

I think the most susceptible to this, however, are those who think they are above it. That kind of self delusion impedes self correction.

Winston said:

Interesting and compelling take on the topic.


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Yeah. Somebody turned me on to a video about dopamine.

"Dopamine" has become a "catch all" for the idea of neurochemical addiction. But there are several involved. Dopamine is just involved in the process most of the time.

Its interesting that its pretty basic, accepted biology but we humans aren't generally included as subject to it.

It is the mechanism of "instinct" and we have them too. We just aren't "slaves" to them. It we can and do become addicted to them. We have tropes for them. "Gold fever" "mad with power". "The love of money is the root of all evil".

A really interesting take looking through this lens is that history is the repetition of a pattern where some of those at the top give into their addictions and take more and more wealth and power until their actions make life unbearable for the majority and they are forced to stop.

Bias really is the fundamental problem in politics. Some people are far more prone to it than others and not only do they not resist it, they devote their lives to whatever beliefs they are 100% rock solid sure are right.

It's a tough problem because those that are right are often indistinguishable from those that are wrong. Am I blindly partisan or are you? Are we both?

It's so easy to think that your reality is the correct one. I don't think I've ever met someone who thought their reality was wrong and that somebody else had it right. Beliefs that you've had since a child may be crystal clear and the bedrock of your belief systems. What if they were flawed? How would you ever know or change that?

The media, governments, corporations, they all play on our biases and exploit anything they can. We're just a bunch of soldiers marching around in different directions in different groups with different orders. Never do most of us realize we're just pawns in a game played by the bigger pieces whose reality is pitting us against each other and scooping up the loot.

What if...? said:

Yeah. Somebody turned me on to a video about dopamine.

"Dopamine" has become a "catch all" for the idea of neurochemical addiction. But there are several involved. Dopamine is just involved in the process most of the time.

Its interesting that its pretty basic, accepted biology but we humans aren't generally included as subject to it.

It is the mechanism of "instinct" and we have them too. We just aren't "slaves" to them. It we can and do become addicted to them. We have tropes for them. "Gold fever" "mad with power". "The love of money is the root of all evil".

A really interesting take looking through this lens is that history is the repetition of a pattern where some of those at the top give into their addictions and take more and more wealth and power until their actions make life unbearable for the majority and they are forced to stop.

Click to expand...

Dopamine is also how junk food gets us. When we digest sweet, salty, fatty, highly rewarding foods in our intestines it releases dopamine in the brain and creates a craving / reward feedback loop.

jmotivator said:

Truth. I asked because your examples carried more certitude than I feel the evidence warrants.

I think the most susceptible to this, however, are those who think they are above it. That kind of self delusion impedes self correction.

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Do you see this as a growing problem? I've noticed in the New Atheist and modern Libertarian circles there seems to be a lot of people professing their superior logic about things. I really do think that if more people accepted that they are fallible maybe the current political climate would be less divisive. At the very least our representatives might get less points for slamming their opponents.

Verax said:

Dopamine is also how junk food gets us. When we digest sweet, salty, fatty, highly rewarding foods in our intestines it releases dopamine in the brain and creates a craving / reward feedback loop.

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It's concentrated energy for foragers, so it makes sense. Encouraged us to seek those foods out.

All of this is how instincts work. Pleasurable chemicals are sent by our brains for pro-survival behaviors. We are SUPPOSED to become addicted to them so we will survive to reproduce. Worked good when things were more scarce and interpersonal checks were in place.

Once we settled down that all changed. With the introduction of the manager class we started having people in charge of making sure the food lasted all winter decide they deserved more food than everybody else because their job was important and the feeding of greed began. It wasn't much tolerated in tribal groups but has been rampant in heirarchical societies to the point revolutions have occurred because of it.

Our ancestors came to America to get away from it.

Its really an interesting "lens" to look at human behavior through.

So far it has proven to be a plausible explanation for all the aberrant behavior we see around us.

Hawkeye10 said:

The first step of the solution for sure is for the So-Called Journalists to start doing journalism.

Once that is done we can move on to step #2.

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That is apparently a very hard thing to do objectively. A few years ago I had the idea that journalists should become licensed and/or boarded by some certifying body. After all, almost all other professions have something like this: doctors, lawyers, accountants,... even plumbers, car mechanics, and electricians. They set standards of what is considered professional ethics for their profession, standards of what a competent professional in that field should be able to do and not do. So why can't we have something like this for journalists?

I brought up this question to several people who work in journalism, including a fairly high level executive who worked at USA Today. They all kind of smiled and shook their head, saying that such a thing could never work for journalism. The biases you can introduce are too subtle to be able to set objective criteria on: what you choose to cover or ignore, what you put on the front page vs. on Page A6. The tone of voice, the subtle body language that you display, etc... these are all potential sources of bias, for which there is no way to set objective standards. Even the reporting of facts: Fox News has been sued for deliberate lying to the public. It has been proven that they have forced their journalists to deliberately lie. Their defense in court? It was not to deny that they lied. It was freedom of speech. They have the freedom to lie if they want. It's a free country. And they won their case like that.

If a doctor, lawyer, or accountant, even the electrician or plumber, deliberately lie to you, they are held accountable. They get their license yanked. They lose their job. There is no "freedom of speech" for them. But because of freedom of speech, and of press, in this country, such standards cannot apply to journalism as a profession.

So when you wish that "The first step of the solution for sure is for the So-Called Journalists to start doing journalism", you have to realize that no one can really agree what real "journalism" would even be. You cannot have objective professional standards to define journalism, for all sorts of reasons. That's a big problem.

What if...? said:

It's concentrated energy for foragers, so it makes sense. Encouraged us to seek those foods out.

All of this is how instincts work. Pleasurable chemicals are sent by our brains for pro-survival behaviors. We are SUPPOSED to become addicted to them so we will survive to reproduce. Worked good when things were more scarce and interpersonal checks were in place.

Once we settled down that all changed. With the introduction of the manager class we started having people in charge of making sure the food lasted all winter decide they deserved more food than everybody else because their job was important and the feeding of greed began. It wasn't much tolerated in tribal groups but has been rampant in heirarchical societies to the point revolutions have occurred because of it.

Our ancestors came to America to get away from it.

Its really an interesting "lens" to look at human behavior through.

So far it has proven to be a plausible explanation for all the aberrant behavior we see around us.

Click to expand...

Out of control survival instincts, makes sense. I've always wondered why billionaires like the Koch brothers care so much about getting more at anybody's cost. It seems sadistic to spend your life making sure millions of people don't get proper healthcare so that your wealth goes up another 2%.

If you look at people like Bill Gates, Buffet, etc. they have done all they can to give back and spread wealth after playing their little business games. I guess there's some hope but, overall a depressing system at times.

Verax said:

Out of control survival instincts, makes sense. I've always wondered why billionaires like the Koch brothers care so much about getting more at anybody's cost. It seems sadistic to spend your life making sure millions of people don't get proper healthcare so that your wealth goes up another 2%.

If you look at people like Bill Gates, Buffet, etc. they have done all they can to give back and spread wealth after playing their little business games. I guess there's some hope but, overall a depressing system at times.

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Well, addictions come with tolerances. So for those after money for money's sake ever more is needed to get the same feeling.

And Gates is one of the uber wealthy who got that way doing something. Something that changed the world.

Many wealthy people are just trying to get money. They do things like acquiring access to resources with the sole purpose of extracting profits by withholding them. Which is fundamentally different than making things or providing services people want.