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An argument for pro-kneeling during the National Anthem.

osunwu27

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“Colin Kaepernick took to one knee during the national anthem when he played for the San Francisco 49ers, in protest of police brutality against black Americans.” (Newyorker.com)

But due to media and general public outcry, the original reason has been changed to one that has devolved to blacks protesting in general as well as an issue of constitutional rights. Now the argument is to show respect support for our troops and veterans, which kneeling shows disrespect towards our men at arms or those who once served. Many take it as an attack on America itself. However, there are clear facts that contradict that specific argument. I believe kneeling during the national anthem is completely ok and in fact, it is a perfectly fine constitutional protest.

One of the fact that contradicts the “disrespect” of the troops and our national anthem is that many veterans have already stepped up and much more have said the reason why they served was that so people could have those rights. The veteran in question, Richard Allen ,said, “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way.”

Those words involve the right to speech and protest. Which that right is protected by the 1st amendment. Some veterans themselves have written an open letter applauding Kaepernick's actions. The content of the letter itself speaks about rightful protest as well as history of protests from blacks and athletes which can read here (An open letter from American military veterans in support of Colin Kaepernick ? The Undefeated)


Speaking of history there have been many different instances in history where protests have been protected and discussed by the nation. A big example is the court case, Texas V Johnson. Which a man burned the American Flag in protest of the Vietnam War, a very controversial topic at the time that quickly sparked conversations across the nation about how Johnson was disrespecting the Flag and his nation. A comparison that mirrors the one of today and the national anthem. The Supreme Court ruled that he had a right to burn the flag due to his freedom of speech. But regardless, despite all the ruling he was still to be arrested for burning the flag again last year.

Delving in the newer argument on racial protesting, America has a history of disregarding civil right protests especially the Civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King. In which some conservatives, called reasonable Republicans by ThinkProgress said that “The reasonable Republican does not agree with Trump that the players should be fired… [they] believe the players have a point and are well-meaning... but are counterproductive.” Reasonable republicans can be seen as ones that are “open” to newer ideas and don’t seem to take the radical decision first and see the protests in general as a waste of time and don’t seem to actually bring any action to their cause. They are proved wrong by history though as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed when MLK marched on Washington. In which a poll by Gallup was taken shortly in which it said that “74 percent of Americans believed that ‘mass demonstrations by Negroes’ would ‘hurt the Negro’s cause for racial equality.’”

Officially there isn’t a rule stated anywhere where one must stand during the anthem. Many guidelines were set for veterans and active service members, but citizens explicitly were not required to stands during the anthem. Citizens only have guidelines to follow. In “Title 36, Section 301 of the U.S. Code, which designates the Star-Spangled Banner as the national anthem… [It] instructs military members and veterans on how to conduct themselves… men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.” (AL.com) Assuming the men not in uniform are citizens then are not essentially required to respond to the anthem, hence the “should”, which is a clearly given choice.

This may not be a complete sound defense for pro-kneeling so I would like to hear more regarding my side as well as the opposing side. Flame me up, fellas. :p
 
Well, traditionally kneeling has always been held to show a sign of submission; while standing is a show of respect among equals.

That's why in many churches or other religious temples, people kneel to show submission to their deity.

Kneeling to the flag is a sign one is submitting to the power of the government. Standing shows respect for, but not abject submission to, the flag and the nation it represents.

Notice how no one reacted negatively to the teams standing with linked arms?

Accepting this, and comparing it to the act by Kaepernick, one could interpret it as demonstrating he is NOT equal by kneeling, but shows he feels he is being forced to submit to the power of government.

That is in no way respectful, it is intentionally inciting.

He is, of course, free to express this.

Meanwhile, sports fans are equally free to express their displeasure by not buying tickets or watching the games on television. :shrug:
 
Last edited:
A protest is simply a protest. What's the big deal. Our Nation uses Goebbels techniques on the military, nationalism, big heroes, and prime public events to propagate a specific agenda and their agenda is being hijacked by protestors. I'm on the protestor's side. There are many grievances about our National policy of hegemony and the deaths going on WorldWide, racism issues, politics, among others, and these events put wind in the protestor's sails and disrupt the warrior mentality agenda. They make obvious truths that our leaders don't want to talk about. So the protests are working well.
/
 
Well, traditionally kneeling has always been held to show a sign of submission; while standing is a show of respect among equals.

That's why is in many churches or other religious temples, people kneel to show submission to their deity.

Kneeling to the flag is a sign one is submitting to the power of the government. Standing shows respect for, but not abject submission to, the flag and the nation it represents.
You are all in favor of kneeling, right????????????
 
Officially there isn’t a rule stated anywhere where one must stand during the anthem. Many guidelines were set for veterans and active service members, but citizens explicitly were not required to stands during the anthem. Citizens only have guidelines to follow. In “Title 36, Section 301 of the U.S. Code, which designates the Star-Spangled Banner as the national anthem… [It] instructs military members and veterans on how to conduct themselves… men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.” (AL.com) Assuming the men not in uniform are citizens then are not essentially required to respond to the anthem, hence the “should”, which is a clearly given choice.

This may not be a complete sound defense for pro-kneeling so I would like to hear more regarding my side as well as the opposing side. Flame me up, fellas. :p

That's a great point that I haven't heard many people make. I really didn't know that the code distinguished between how military and non-military should behave during the anthem.

My point has always been that it's irrational to coerce people to show patriotism. Patriotism is love of country. You can't coerce or require love. If people are required by their employer or society to stand for the anthem then the gesture become empty for everyone.

The other point being that patriotism is not really a virtue. What if our founding fathers had been patriotic and loyal to the British government and flag? Half the country renounced the flag during the Civil War. The same people who criticize the kneelers as unpatriotic defend Confederate statues of men who were by definition unpatriotic.

And Trump is not a patriot. If he were he would have fought in Vietnam. If he were he wouldn't have claimed POWs are not heroes. He's a rabble-rouser. He's exploiting cultural divisions like "Merry Christmas" for political gain.
 
That's a great point that I haven't heard many people make. I really didn't know that the code distinguished between how military and non-military should behave during the anthem.

My point has always been that it's irrational to coerce people to show patriotism. Patriotism is love of country. You can't coerce or require love. If people are required by their employer or society to stand for the anthem then the gesture become empty for everyone.

The other point being that patriotism is not really a virtue. What if our founding fathers had been patriotic and loyal to the British government and flag? Half the country renounced the flag during the Civil War. The same people who criticize the kneelers as unpatriotic defend Confederate statues of men who were by definition unpatriotic.

And Trump is not a patriot. If he were he would have fought in Vietnam. If he were he wouldn't have claimed POWs are not heroes. He's a rabble-rouser. He's exploiting cultural divisions like "Merry Christmas" for political gain.

exactly; Trump is not a patriot but rather he is an idiot ..........
 
“Colin Kaepernick took to one knee during the national anthem when he played for the San Francisco 49ers, in protest of police brutality against black Americans.” (Newyorker.com)

But due to media and general public outcry, the original reason has been changed to one that has devolved to blacks protesting in general as well as an issue of constitutional rights. Now the argument is to show respect support for our troops and veterans, which kneeling shows disrespect towards our men at arms or those who once served. Many take it as an attack on America itself. However, there are clear facts that contradict that specific argument. I believe kneeling during the national anthem is completely ok and in fact, it is a perfectly fine constitutional protest.

One of the fact that contradicts the “disrespect” of the troops and our national anthem is that many veterans have already stepped up and much more have said the reason why they served was that so people could have those rights. The veteran in question, Richard Allen ,said, “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way.”

Those words involve the right to speech and protest. Which that right is protected by the 1st amendment. Some veterans themselves have written an open letter applauding Kaepernick's actions. The content of the letter itself speaks about rightful protest as well as history of protests from blacks and athletes which can read here (An open letter from American military veterans in support of Colin Kaepernick ? The Undefeated)


Speaking of history there have been many different instances in history where protests have been protected and discussed by the nation. A big example is the court case, Texas V Johnson. Which a man burned the American Flag in protest of the Vietnam War, a very controversial topic at the time that quickly sparked conversations across the nation about how Johnson was disrespecting the Flag and his nation. A comparison that mirrors the one of today and the national anthem. The Supreme Court ruled that he had a right to burn the flag due to his freedom of speech. But regardless, despite all the ruling he was still to be arrested for burning the flag again last year.

Delving in the newer argument on racial protesting, America has a history of disregarding civil right protests especially the Civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King. In which some conservatives, called reasonable Republicans by ThinkProgress said that “The reasonable Republican does not agree with Trump that the players should be fired… [they] believe the players have a point and are well-meaning... but are counterproductive.” Reasonable republicans can be seen as ones that are “open” to newer ideas and don’t seem to take the radical decision first and see the protests in general as a waste of time and don’t seem to actually bring any action to their cause. They are proved wrong by history though as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed when MLK marched on Washington. In which a poll by Gallup was taken shortly in which it said that “74 percent of Americans believed that ‘mass demonstrations by Negroes’ would ‘hurt the Negro’s cause for racial equality.’”

...snip

This has nothing to do with the 1st amendment, the NFL is not a govt entity. The issue is that paying customers are having to deal with protests and they don't like that. If you went to Starbucks and they tried to start a conversation about race while you waited for your moccachino you would be pissed because you just came to Starbucks for coffee. Note that Starbucks actually did that and it did not go well.

What I find funny about the whole thing is that professional athletes have a lot of media presence. They can call up any local radio of TV station and get on the air, the bigger stars can make it national but they haven't chosen to do that. Other than Kaep who has said only a couple of times why he is protesting the others haven't even explained thier reasons. It almost seems like the whole point of the protest is to deliberately hurt the NFL even though the NFL has nothing to do with the issues Kaep brought up.
 
This has nothing to do with the 1st amendment, the NFL is not a govt entity. The issue is that paying customers are having to deal with protests and they don't like that. If you went to Starbucks and they tried to start a conversation about race while you waited for your moccachino you would be pissed because you just came to Starbucks for coffee. Note that Starbucks actually did that and it did not go well.

What I find funny about the whole thing is that professional athletes have a lot of media presence. They can call up any local radio of TV station and get on the air, the bigger stars can make it national but they haven't chosen to do that. Other than Kaep who has said only a couple of times why he is protesting the others haven't even explained thier reasons. It almost seems like the whole point of the protest is to deliberately hurt the NFL even though the NFL has nothing to do with the issues Kaep brought up.

Really? Michael Bennett has.

Seahawks' Michael Bennett: This is a peaceful protest - CNNPolitics
 
The NFL kneeling is sparking discussion but not the right kind to bring attention to what Kap's original reason was. Now its devolved into a large issue and I agree that its definitely bringing out the darker side of our leaders. I just wish more would be done about it if we weren't so busy fighting amoungst ourselves.
 
I mean it has to do with a lot of things. Since people want to stop the people from kneeling, which is a protest in the words of basically everyone kneeling, that is attacking someones right to speech AND their right to protest. It was just a quiet thing Kap did up until he was noticed doing it on TV. So how hard is it to just ignore what people are saying and doing? I can easily just go into starbucks and just ignore it, i'm for the coffee. I can just ignore it and get out same with the game. Ignore the kneeling and enjoy it. I mean those people already paid like a ton for the tickets, it would be very stuck up of them to be mad about a couple dudes kneeling.

But I do agree on that media presence, they have a ton more outlets to utilize but most of them just don't. Some of it may be because they might get kicked out for commenting dumb things but they can still send messages and the sort.
 
I mean it has to do with a lot of things. Since people want to stop the people from kneeling, which is a protest in the words of basically everyone kneeling, that is attacking someones right to speech AND their right to protest. It was just a quiet thing Kap did up until he was noticed doing it on TV. So how hard is it to just ignore what people are saying and doing? I can easily just go into starbucks and just ignore it, i'm for the coffee. I can just ignore it and get out same with the game. Ignore the kneeling and enjoy it. I mean those people already paid like a ton for the tickets, it would be very stuck up of them to be mad about a couple dudes kneeling.

But I do agree on that media presence, they have a ton more outlets to utilize but most of them just don't. Some of it may be because they might get kicked out for commenting dumb things but they can still send messages and the sort.

The people that are being stuck up about this is people like yourself who are lecturing others who are following your advice, ironically enough, and ignoring the nfl. 20% of the fan base have decided they don't want to consume the nfls product and they have their right to excercise their free speech by expressing why they are no longer consuming the nfl products.

The nfl has the right to either allow or deny their employees the privilege to protest while they are work. The choice they made was the wrong one for 20% of their fan base. What it showed the fans is how little they are respected by the nfl and it's employees. Now they are realizing those fans are not coming back and are pathetically trying to figure out how to get the revenue back with admitting they screwed up and showing some contrition for their mistake.

When I read your OP it left me with a couple of thoughts.

I agree with you that I don't view the players kneeling being disrespectful to our military. The rest of what you said however is garbage rationalizations to excuse it for what it really is. It is rude, insulting, and disrespectful to the fans who support the game. They have every right to say so and to discontinue their support. You should be more respectful about their right to freedom of speech.

Since the protest have started the nfl is down 20% but I don't think the ramifications of that have bottom out yet. Football was a cultural phenomenon that has now been damaged. People are not talking on Monday at work about the games on sunday. They are missing players in their fantasy pools from last year and the intensity and excitement are dwindling. Factors like these are going to make following the game less attractive to fans. They will probably lose another 5-10% of fans again next year.

I have no idea what the profit margin is but I can almost guarantee it's not more than 30% and more likely is much lower. I would not be shocked to find out their profit margin is less than 10%. The only thing the nfl has going for them is the current losses are being spread out among the sponors who are locked into contracts with them but even that is going to have to compensated when it's time to renew if they want to retain those sponsors. It's not a matter if the second shoe is gonna drop it's a matter of when and how hard it's going to fall.

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“Colin Kaepernick took to one knee during the national anthem when he played for the San Francisco 49ers, in protest of police brutality against black Americans.” (Newyorker.com)

<snip>

One of the fact that contradicts the “disrespect” of the troops and our national anthem is that many veterans have already stepped up and much more have said the reason why they served was that so people could have those rights. The veteran in question, Richard Allen ,said, “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way.”

Those words involve the right to speech and protest. Which that right is protected by the 1st amendment. Some veterans themselves have written an open letter applauding Kaepernick's actions. The content of the letter itself speaks about rightful protest as well as history of protests from blacks and athletes which can read here (An open letter from American military veterans in support of Colin Kaepernick ? The Undefeated)


Speaking of history there have been many different instances in history where protests have been protected and discussed by the nation. A big example is the court case, Texas V Johnson. Which a man burned the American Flag in protest of the Vietnam War, a very controversial topic at the time that quickly sparked conversations across the nation about how Johnson was disrespecting the Flag and his nation. A comparison that mirrors the one of today and the national anthem. The Supreme Court ruled that he had a right to burn the flag due to his freedom of speech. But regardless, despite all the ruling he was still to be arrested for burning the flag again last year.

Delving in the newer argument on racial protesting, America has a history of disregarding civil right protests especially the Civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King. In which some conservatives, called reasonable Republicans by ThinkProgress said that “The reasonable Republican does not agree with Trump that the players should be fired… [they] believe the players have a point and are well-meaning... but are counterproductive.” Reasonable republicans can be seen as ones that are “open” to newer ideas and don’t seem to take the radical decision first and see the protests in general as a waste of time and don’t seem to actually bring any action to their cause. They are proved wrong by history though as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed when MLK marched on Washington. In which a poll by Gallup was taken shortly in which it said that “74 percent of Americans believed that ‘mass demonstrations by Negroes’ would ‘hurt the Negro’s cause for racial equality.’”

Officially there isn’t a rule stated anywhere where one must stand during the anthem. Many guidelines were set for veterans and active service members, but citizens explicitly were not required to stands during the anthem. Citizens only have guidelines to follow. In “Title 36, Section 301 of the U.S. Code, which designates the Star-Spangled Banner as the national anthem… [It] instructs military members and veterans on how to conduct themselves… men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.” (AL.com) Assuming the men not in uniform are citizens then are not essentially required to respond to the anthem, hence the “should”, which is a clearly given choice.

This may not be a complete sound defense for pro-kneeling so I would like to hear more regarding my side as well as the opposing side. Flame me up, fellas. :p

(edited for length-sorry.)

I fully support the right of football players to kneel. I also support their right to piss on anything else that is of value to me.

I hope that they support my right to withdraw my interest and financial support of the kneelers and their sport and to relegate them to the ash bin of history.

I have recently decided to start buying Papa John's Pizzas.

I support his right to withdraw his support of the NFL as well. Probably means a whole lot more than my withdrawal.

Soccer seems to be a pretty popular sport in the rest of the world. We seem to have some world class arenas we could play this in throughout the country.

Let's give it a go, shall we? Baseball's been looking pretty good, too.
 
A protest is simply a protest. What's the big deal. Our Nation uses Goebbels techniques on the military, nationalism, big heroes, and prime public events to propagate a specific agenda and their agenda is being hijacked by protestors. I'm on the protestor's side. There are many grievances about our National policy of hegemony and the deaths going on WorldWide, racism issues, politics, among others, and these events put wind in the protestor's sails and disrupt the warrior mentality agenda. They make obvious truths that our leaders don't want to talk about. So the protests are working well.
/

Are you on the side of anyone who exercises their right to freedom of expression?
 
(edited for length-sorry.)

I fully support the right of football players to kneel. I also support their right to piss on anything else that is of value to me.

I hope that they support my right to withdraw my interest and financial support of the kneelers and their sport and to relegate them to the ash bin of history.

I have recently decided to start buying Papa John's Pizzas.

I support his right to withdraw his support of the NFL as well. Probably means a whole lot more than my withdrawal.

Soccer seems to be a pretty popular sport in the rest of the world. We seem to have some world class arenas we could play this in throughout the country.

Let's give it a go, shall we? Baseball's been looking pretty good, too.
Im not convinced this wasnt a pr move by pappa johns but either way as long as they give finacial support to the nfl i will not be buying their product. I dont support buisinesses that support the nfl.

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Im not convinced this wasnt a pr move by pappa johns but either way as long as they give finacial support to the nfl i will not be buying their product. I dont support buisinesses that support the nfl.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Papa Johns was the Official Pizza of the NFL. Papa John has pulled advertising from the NFL citing dropping sales as the season wears on.

He is very upset that the NFL did not do something about this 18 months ago.

He has the right to advertise or not as he sees fit.

I agree with his action. I'm sure there are those who don't. We are all free to agree or not and conduct ourselves as we see fit.
 
Papa Johns was the Official Pizza of the NFL. Papa John has pulled advertising from the NFL citing dropping sales as the season wears on.

He is very upset that the NFL did not do something about this 18 months ago.

He has the right to advertise or not as he sees fit.

I agree with his action. I'm sure there are those who don't. We are all free to agree or not and conduct ourselves as we see fit.
I was not aware that he pulled his advertising. Good for him. Im taking them off of my banned list

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Are you on the side of anyone who exercises their right to freedom of expression?

I'm thinking that is what these protests are about. Free speech. Right or wrong. When you prevent expression of those freedoms, it is censorship.
/
 
I'm thinking that is what these protests are about. Free speech. Right or wrong. When you prevent expression of those freedoms, it is censorship.
/

Me, too!

Both the free speakers and the free respondents.
 
The NFL could not have handled this issue any worse than they did!
NHL hockey season is in full swing... Give it a try! You have the contact of football but it's faster.
 
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