• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

London now more dangerous than New York City, crime stats suggest

HowardBThiname said:
Interesting you should bring that up, because in the US, typically the highest gun crime areas also have the strictest gun control.
Click to expand...

Where did you hear that?

Looks like you're wrong:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-7-wall-st-states-most-gun-violence/71003050/

Alaska wins! followed by Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Montana and so on. Those don't strike me as states which are particularly interested in gun control. Quite the opposite in fact.

Trump may be partially correct in that an increase in radical Muslim immigrants have contributed to an increase in some of the crime London is seeing, including rape, but NYC also has some gun restrictions, although that doesn't seem to stop the criminals.

People are afraid to look too closely at correlations these days. They're afraid they might appear to be racist or bigoted.
Click to expand...

Trump said what?
 
Last edited:
BitterPill said:
Truth is, the US doesn't appear to have appreciably more violent criminal acts, fewer in fact, than Britain, just more violent incidents where someone is shot:

Types of Violent Crime

The US has a very specific brand of violence. Perhaps our criminals are just more motivated than the rest of the world, or perhaps having a firearm for every man, woman or child in America ups the ante in confrontations. Either way, the involvement of guns in violent crime (and the defense against violent crime) is a decidedly American phenomena amongst developed nations.

Violent-Crime-Hybrid3.jpg


With gun restrictions making it harder to obtain private weapons in the UK, violent crimes involving guns have greatly decreased. The number of total violent crimes, however, is almost double that of the US. Of those crimes, only 19% even involve a weapon, and only 5% of those involve a firearm. That means that of you’re roughly 1/100 chance of being involved in a violent crime in Britain and Wales in any given year, you have roughly a 1/10,000 chance of being in a violent crime involving a gun.

In the US your chances of being involved in a violent crime are less than 1/250.

Alternately, in the US your chances of being involved in a violent crime are less than 1/250. Of those involved with violent crimes, however, you have greater than a 1/10,000 chance of being involved in a violent crime involving a gun. In a country with less than half the violent crime, you have a greater chance of being the victim of a violent crime involving a gun.

Here’s where gun control advocates would say that the proliferation of easily available and private firearms enable gun crimes. This is also where gun rights advocates would point to the much lower violent crime rate in a similarly governed and wealthy nation. In a way, they’re both right. Much as the US is both in line with other developed nations on violent crime, and an outlier–with several cities more dangerous than anywhere in Europe or Asia–violent crime in America is as sprawling as the opportunities to commit crime.​


The British seem a rather violent lot. Good thing they don't have an overabundance of firearms like we do.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Us are violent. Just do everything and understand that we don't want our fellows armed as we will most probably be fighting them some day.
 
Tim the plumber said:

Yes.

Us are violent. Just do everything and understand that we don't want our fellows armed as we will most probably be fighting them some day.
Click to expand...

Fight the good fight my British brother:



just don't hurt anybody, yourself included.
 
BitterPill said:
Where did you hear that?

Looks like you're wrong:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-7-wall-st-states-most-gun-violence/71003050/

Alaska wins! followed by Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Montana and so on. Those don't strike me as states which are particularly interested in gun control. Quite the opposite in fact.



Trump said what?
Click to expand...

LOL, really?

I specified the "highest gun crime areas" and you gave us states with gun crimes per population? Do you not see the difference?

If only two people live in Wyoming and one shoots the other, the rate would be 1 out of 2. However, where do you think you'd be in the most actual danger of being shot? Baggs Wyoming? Or, a Chicago hood? And, which has the strictest gun laws?





I, however, stipulated the highest gun crime areas, and those are inner cities.
 
HowardBThiname said:
LOL, really?
I specified the "highest gun crime areas" and you gave us states with gun crimes per population? Do you not see the difference?
If only two people live in Wyoming and one shoots the other, the rate would be 1 out of 2. However, where do you think you'd be in the most actual danger of being shot? Baggs Wyoming? Or, a Chicago hood? And, which has the strictest gun laws?
I, however, stipulated the highest gun crime areas, and those are inner cities.
Click to expand...

This statistic only has any truth within the US, where guns can flow freely to areas with gun-control from areas without it. In countries where there's nation wide gun control, the violent crime rate is almost always dramatically lower. Gun control has only been tried in the US locally as a response to extremely high murder rates, it doesn't increase the murder rate.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You literally just posted a blog, and the blog lists no sources for any of its claims throughout the text, it just adds a few generic links at the bottom like OECD.org - OECD, as if we're supposed to go rustle through that entire collection of data to find the data he's using to form his fallacious conclusions. Did you give up on the UNODC data after I showed you it supports my position and not yours? How is "violent crime" defined and where is the data showing it's higher anywhere in Europe? It obviously isn't murder, rape or anything else, I assume he included bicycle theft or something inane as violent crime in order to boost the numbers.

So by all means, point to any metric whatsoever that shows anywhere in western Europe is more dangerous than the US. You're making up excuses to avoid admitting that we have a problem.
Click to expand...

That's not true. My link that you protest so vehemently against, and this while you use Wiki, lists its sources:


and I checked them out, even the one in Spanish. They are legit.

This. If you compare any of the major violent crime types, murder, rape, assault, etc. the US will be worse off in every single category.
Click to expand...

I can only lead an alpaca to water - can't make the ****er drink.

Damn thing is rabid. No wonder.
 
BitterPill said:
That's not true. My link that you protest so vehemently against, and this while you use Wiki, lists its sources:
and I checked them out, even the one in Spanish. They are legit.
I can only lead an alpaca to water - can't make the ****er drink.
Damn thing is rabid. No wonder.
Click to expand...

Yet you can't point to one single statistic showing this is the case. I'm not going to do your work for you. I've pointed directly to sourced statistics from reputable agencies. Even your UNODC link supported my case. You're ignoring the fact that the definition of the broad term "violent crime" varies from country to country. You're attempting to compare apples to oranges but if you look at any violent crime, ie. rape, assault, murder, etc. individually it is objectively higher in the US by a wide margin.

So pull out the data from these links at show it to us here that the US is actually safer than Europe. This is your shot to prove us all wrong.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
This statistic only has any truth within the US, where guns can flow freely to areas with gun-control from areas without it. In countries where there's nation wide gun control, the violent crime rate is almost always dramatically lower. Gun control has only been tried in the US locally as a response to extremely high murder rates, it doesn't increase the murder rate.
Click to expand...

Mexico also has widespread gun control, but the drug criminals do as they please anyway. Laws are only as good as the enforcement of those laws.

It's not the laws, or lack of them, that are creating the high crime areas, it's rather cultural differences and poverty. The problem is -- once we have that combination -- to restrict guns isn't helpful. Detroit's crime rate has been dropping the past few years, although it's still substantial, but the Chief of Police there actually told residents to arm themselves. They have been taking his advice and crime is dropping. Another correlation to be considered.
 
HowardBThiname said:
LOL, really?

I specified the "highest gun crime areas" and you gave us states with gun crimes per population? Do you not see the difference?

If only two people live in Wyoming and one shoots the other, the rate would be 1 out of 2. However, where do you think you'd be in the most actual danger of being shot? Baggs Wyoming? Or, a Chicago hood? And, which has the strictest gun laws?
Click to expand...

Perhaps I was thinking states are areas. Can't imagine why I'd fall for the logically obvious.

I, however, stipulated the highest gun crime areas, and those are inner cities.
Click to expand...

That's not entirely true. You wrote "typically the highest gun crime areas also have the strictest gun control." Alaska is an area, a large area, a large area with lax gun control, and the death by firearm rate is 23.4 per 100,000 whereas in California , a smaller area with some gun control has a death by firearm rate of 7.7 per 100,000.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yet you can't point to one single statistic showing this is the case. I'm not going to do your work for you. I've pointed directly to sourced statistics from reputable agencies. Even your UNODC link supported my case. You're ignoring the fact that the definition of the broad term "violent crime" varies from country to country. You're attempting to compare apples to oranges but if you look at any violent crime, ie. rape, assault, murder, etc. individually it is objectively higher in the US by a wide margin.

So pull out the data from these links at show it to us here that the US is actually safer than Europe. This is your shot to prove us all wrong.
Click to expand...

I'm sure we have more punch-ups here in the UK.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Mexico also has widespread gun control, but the drug criminals do as they please anyway. Laws are only as good as the enforcement of those laws.

It's not the laws, or lack of them, that are creating the high crime areas, it's rather cultural differences and poverty. The problem is -- once we have that combination -- to restrict guns isn't helpful. Detroit's crime rate has been dropping the past few years, although it's still substantial, but the Chief of Police there actually told residents to arm themselves. They have been taking his advice and crime is dropping. Another correlation to be considered.
Click to expand...

Mexico has a very weak government and is socially weak.

When the USA exports it's gangster economy to this weak state the gangsters win.
 
HowardBThiname said:
While that's true, the OP does not assert that rape-reporting in London has changed so they are still showing large uptick in rape -- the way they report it. That uptick correlates with a very large increase in Muslim immigration into London, and although they do not have evidence of actual causation, there is reason to look into the correlation. They should also determine whether there are other correlations and look into those.
Click to expand...

What very large increase in Muslim immigration into London?

And yes rape reporting has gone up, but does that mean that rapes have gone up? no. Just the reporting, that women have become more brave to report the rapes and the Police give a damn. You see this in all western countries where women get more and more free from the male dominated society.

But lets look at the numbers shall we?

Sexual assault (includes rape) year ending June, 2016 in London = 16631
Sexual assault (includes rape) year ending June, 2017 in London = 18172

That is a change of 1541 in a year. All sexual assaults are bad, but the change is hardly mind blowing big. Now the changes since 2010 to now.. that is big, but again it is reported not actual, so it depends purely on the willingness of women and men to report their sexual assaults and of course the police giving a damn. So what has happened since 2010 or before? Jimmy Savile scandal. That scandal, and the many afterwards have in my opinion embolden women in the UK to actually report more rapes.. before that, why bother, since the men would get away with it.

Now can you correlate the increase to a rise in the Muslim population in London? The next census is in 2021, so the latest confirmed numbers are from 2011 and 2001. Here it shows a rise in the "muslim" population from 600k to 1 million. The overall population of London in the same period went from 7,2 to 8,2 million. So you claim there has been a large influx of Muslims since and they are raping and committing crimes? Got any evidence of this?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yet you can't point to one single statistic showing this is the case. I'm not going to do your work for you. I've pointed directly to sourced statistics from reputable agencies. Even your UNODC link supported my case. You're ignoring the fact that the definition of the broad term "violent crime" varies from country to country. You're attempting to compare apples to oranges but if you look at any violent crime, ie. rape, assault, murder, etc. individually it is objectively higher in the US by a wide margin.
Click to expand...

And you used Wiki.

So pull out the data from these links at show it to us here that the US is actually safer than Europe. This is your shot to prove us all wrong.
Click to expand...

I'm not even arguing that the US is safer than Europe. In a mortal sense, quite the opposite is what I am arguing. One is simply more likely to be a victim of violent crime in Britain than in the US, yet that violent crime will most likely not include a firearm. Meanwhile, in the US one is less likely to be a victim of violent crime, yet any violent crime is much more likely to involve a firearm. In the end, the US is definitely more lethal even though the violent crime rate is lower.

It seems like a difficult concept for you to swallow, but Tim the Plumber got it, so I think you can, too.

I am pulling for you!
 
BitterPill said:
Shucks!
Click to expand...

FFS went and looked, and it aint easy at all to find non violent crime statistics without being in law-enforcement.. guessing they are trying to hide reality.
 
Tim the plumber said:
Mexico has a very weak government and is socially weak.
Click to expand...
Compared to the US and Europe, definitely so.

When the USA exports it's gangster economy to this weak state the gangsters win.
Click to expand...

The Mexicans have always had a violent gangster streak. We sure didn't need to export one.
 
PeteEU said:
FFS went and looked, and it aint easy at all to find non violent crime statistics without being in law-enforcement.. guessing they are trying to hide reality.
Click to expand...

I can barely keep my eyes open, and so to bed.
 
BitterPill said:
And you used Wiki.
I'm not even arguing that the US is safer than Europe. In a mortal sense, quite the opposite is what I am arguing. One is simply more likely to be a victim of violent crime in Britain than in the US, yet that violent crime will most likely not include a firearm. Meanwhile, in the US one is less likely to be a victim of violent crime, yet any violent crime is much more likely to involve a firearm. In the end, the US is definitely more lethal even though the violent crime rate is lower.

It seems like a difficult concept for you to swallow, but Tim the Plumber got it, so I think you can, too.

I am pulling for you!
Click to expand...

The wikipedia data I linked to actually shows data and the data is sourced. I then turned around and pointed directly to the UNODC data and quoted it here. You have provided ZERO data to prove your point and you have refused to recognize that "violent crime" is defined radically different in the UK than in the US. You can not point to one type of violent crime that happens more in the UK than the US. You're just lazy and incapable of defending your positions with data and sources, you just blindly repost a blog that doesn't say what you think it does. More quotes from the blog you found:

No European or Asian cities are in the top 50 deadliest cities.
Click to expand...
Violent crime in America is as sprawling as the opportunities to commit crime
Click to expand...

So by all means, show me any data that supports your assertion, I've presented the data from multiple reputable sources and discussed it specifically. You can't point to any evidence that backs up your claim.
 
Last edited:
HowardBThiname said:
While that's true, the OP does not assert that rape-reporting in London has changed so they are still showing large uptick in rape -- the way they report it. That uptick correlates with a very large increase in Muslim immigration into London, and although they do not have evidence of actual causation, there is reason to look into the correlation. They should also determine whether there are other correlations and look into those.
Click to expand...

Jeez. Stop with Muslim nonsense, it's embarrassing.
 
BitterPill said:
The Mexicans have always had a violent gangster streak. We sure didn't need to export one.
Click to expand...

They have had such a thing often with the biggest gangsters there being America.

Yes, they don't help themselves on this one. It would never happen in Canada but the pressure of the US gangster economy falls most heavily on the states of Central America. More so than in the US it's self.
 
Anybody with a brain should be getting the hell out of London, if not Britain entirely.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Jesus H. Christ is this dishonest. You just post some nonsense chart without a source or a definition of violent crime then try to turn the US's higher crime rate into a positive with "Perhaps our criminals are just more motivated than the rest of the world." :roll:

Here are some actual, real statistics:

Murder rate per 100k people: List of countries by intentional homicide rate
US - 4.88
UK - 0.92

So you're about 5 times more likely to be murdered in the US.

Rape rate per 100k people: Rape statistics by country
US - 27.3
UK -17

And about 60% more likely to be raped. There is no comparison when you look at the actual statistics and not an unsourced, cherry-picked blog.
Click to expand...

You see, your numbers are as deceptive as any by lumping stats of different bases into one number. Were you to take the Asian American folks, they would probably show lower numbers than the UK. Taking highly aggregated numbers isn't very good and is worse yet in large countries.
 
BitterPill said:
I'm not sure if the UN data includes ethnicity or race in its homicide statistics:

The many faces of homicide

Based on elements including premeditation, motivation, context, instrumentality and the relationship between victim and perpetrator, this study identifies three distinct homicide typologies in order to shed light on different types of lethal violence:

A classification of intentional homicide
Typology3_final_B7.png
​

https://www.unodc.org/gsh/en/many-faces-of-homicide.html
Click to expand...

I haven't checked, but I suspect that the un data might not differentiate between races, ethnicities, social groups etc. You'd have to look at domestic statistical databases.
 
PeteEU said:
For the love of god.. not this BS again. Guess The grand baby in the White House tweeting bull**** again stirred up this false news yet again.

It comes down to definitions.

Violent crimes are defined by the FBI as the following.. Murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault.
Violent crimes in the UK are defined as the following.. all crimes against a person, including simple assaults, all robberies, and ALL sexual assaults...

So there is a HUGE difference in the statistical definitions of violent crime. So in the UK Harvey Wienstien and Trump groping women is a violent crime.. in the US it is not. Harvey and Trump raping women without force is not a violent crime in the US, but it is in the UK.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Have things changed so much in twenty years? When I was in London things were considered harassment in our New York office that were only iffy in London. Things that were quotidian in our Paris headquarters were reasons for immediate dismissal in New York.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom