The SJW - Positive or negative impact on Liberal politics?

Glen Contrarian said:

1. In America, an "active shooter" situation forcing schools to go on lockdown is common enough that unless multiple people are killed, it never makes the national news. That's a really sad byproduct of the American right-wingers' gun fetish.

2. I never said or implied that humans in Europe are a different species from those in America, and it is poor manners for you to imply that I did so. In serious discussions, please don't put words in the mouths of others.

3. No, it's not impossible to change culture. Before the right-wing racists took control of our government under Trump, one of the great, beautiful things about America was that anyone could come to American and truly be American. I'm white, but I've got extended (Asian) family in Australia...and they're proud Australians. Same thing for my Asian family members living in Florence, Italy. But not so much for the ones living in Riyadh. Heck, go to Canada and see how utterly cosmopolitan the big cities are there.

And it's not only the countries that are majority-white. Go to Singapore - that's about the most racially-cosmopolitan place I know of.

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You do realize that 76% of Singapore is ethnically Chinese while only 61% of Americans are white. And those whites come from a vast array of countries. The racial diversity of Singapore can’t hold a candle to that of the US.

Buzz62 said:

What is it your mother told you, when you came across a bully in elementary school?
Mine told me to ignore them and they'd go away. Then my dad added..."unless they hit you".

Is the Social Justice Warrior, and indeed the entire Politically Correct movement, having a positive or negative impact on Liberal politics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzc8glS2r_o

I have always cast my votes for the candidate who best reflects my opinions and beliefs at any given time. Thus I've voted Liberal, Conservative, and even once came close for voting for the NDP. But I had already had enough of the PC ever-lovin' SJW before Donny got elected, and after seeing the response to the last presidential election, and the ill feeling I get everytime I have to listen to Canada's PM Pixey-Dust, I'm presently a firm conservative vote.

I'm curious how other independents and centerists feel about this?

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I don't like the SJW label. It's loaded. It's improperly used by people who are far right to attack people on the left, who may or may not be far left.



I'll simply say this: an extremist on either side generally helps nothing. Though occasionally, an extremist idea turns out to be right. That's rare. So without regard to the label "SJW" (because labels are always misused), it's extremists that are the problem.

That doesn't mean I think that centrism is correct as a general rule. There are always better positions and worse positions. Their quality has nothing to do with where they stand with regard to the center. It couldn't. The center is defined by the extremes. The extremes are just usually wrong.

They can, however, push a more moderate discussion in a sensible direction.

Glen Contrarian said:

The only reason that conservatives and some independents see "SJW's" as negative is because that's how the right wants to label those who fight for civil rights.

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I think it depends on the definition of an SJW.

Are we talking about the kind of morons who run around college campuses barfing about tedious crap like "cultural appropriation", "White privilege", and gender pronoun usage and who demand "safe spaces" when Conservatives come to speak because they can't handle the idea of Free Speech and what a Conservative has to say?

or

Are we talking about people like Black Americans who have a legitimate beef such as police brutality?

If it's the first group i mentioned, those idiots aren't about civil rights. They just complain because they have nothing better to do and are in need of some serious therapy. Preferably something that involves shock treatments. And to answer the OP's question, they have nothing but negative impacts.

Moderate Right said:

You heal the nation by not taking down confederate statues and spitting on every confederate soldier. But, you are correct, it is extremely similar to Iraq tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban destroying religious statues they don't believe in - trying to erase history. Look at the ancient tyrant statues we find through archaelogical excavations, such as Caesar, etc. Without those we would not know what any of these people looked like, an important part of our history. We should even have a statue of Hitler so we know what he looked like. It doesn't have to be presented in a way that idolizes him but shows him for the evil person he was. It's how it is all presented, not the fact that we should tear down every statue we find offensive. We could have statues depicting heroes of the Union fighting Statues of Confederate soldiers.

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That shopworn bull**** yet again? It's been debunked here countless times.

Removing memorials/statues honoring Confederates is:

A. Not erasing history in the least. The books are all still there. The museums are still standing.
B. Nothing even remotely like what the Taliban did.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Glen Contrarian said:

1. In America, an "active shooter" situation forcing schools to go on lockdown is common enough that unless multiple people are killed, it never makes the national news. That's a really sad byproduct of the American right-wingers' gun fetish.

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Attributing the support of gun rights to a "fetish" is really disingenuous and shows an utter contempt for your fellow Americans. Shame on you.

2. I never said or implied that humans in Europe are a different species from those in America, and it is poor manners for you to imply that I did so. In serious discussions, please don't put words in the mouths of others.

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You tried to put those words in my mouth. In serious discussions, please don't assume racist motives until they're proven beyond reasonable doubt.

3. No, it's not impossible to change culture. Before the right-wing racists

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That is such a bigoted thing to say, accusing all Trump-supporters of being racist.

took control of our government under Trump, one of the great, beautiful things about America was that anyone could come to American and truly be American. I'm white, but I've got extended (Asian) family in Australia...and they're proud Australians. Same thing for my Asian family members living in Florence, Italy. But not so much for the ones living in Riyadh. Heck, go to Canada and see how utterly cosmopolitan the big cities are there.

And it's not only the countries that are majority-white. Go to Singapore - that's about the most racially-cosmopolitan place I know of.

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The culture of a population can change over time, but the culture of an individual is constrained by his/her upbringing. If I adopt a newborn baby from China (newborn babies have no culture yet), take her back to New Zealand, and raise her in an all-white town with all-white parents, her culture will be New Zealand European and not Chinese. If she goes back to China as an adult and tries to integrate there, she will still be a New Zealand European trying to be Chinese, despite her physical appearance resembling the latter. She will never have the experience that comes from being raised in China by a Chinese family, even if she identifies as Chinese and disdains her New Zealand roots. She also won't know what it's like being raised in New Zealand by a Chinese family, because she hasn't had that experience either.

Of course, one can define a population's culture in sufficiently broad terms that it includes all other cultures. The danger with this is that you no longer have a culture to define, which forces people to seek their identity in smaller subcultures, which inevitably leads to white nationalist movements. I would normally suggest you do such-and-such to avert this before it's too late, but it's already too late, so just try not to provoke the alt-right into violence.

Absentglare said:

There's a phenomenon in feedback control systems known as "overshoot":

Consider the peak of the curve being the cherry picked "SJW", the "Commanded Position" where society should settle, and the starting point pre-1900s or so.

Of course, it should be obvious that social justice is a good thing. We should all continue to be very clear on that. Caring about social justice should not be a point of humiliation. This isn't a joke, people have suffered and died over these issues, and not as long ago as we'd like to admit.

We might ultimately disagree on where the "Commanded Position" should be. That's fine. But the idea that liberals should be ashamed of their passion for social justice is patently absurd. That's just who we are.

Going back go the original theory, denying the cause in general is a doomed proposition. It'd be like arguing that you shouldn't even try steer your car with your steering wheel because you might not get it perfect on the first iteration.

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I commend you on a fine and applicable analogy.

From my view, SJW (excessive PC), is currently in the 'overshoot' part of the graph. Hopefully, soon, the settling time will smooth out the current excesses.

A valid concern is that SJW and the culture won't behave in this manner.

The other question is how to promote unity of the electorate, rather than this destructive 'culture war' conflict, to set and arrive to that 'commanded position' and where that position lies, as you've identified.

eohrnberger said:

I commend you on a fine and applicable analogy.

From my view, SJW (excessive PC), is currently in the 'overshoot' part of the graph. Hopefully, soon, the settling time will smooth out the current excesses.

A valid concern is that SJW and the culture won't behave in this manner.

The other question is how to promote unity of the electorate, rather than this destructive 'culture war' conflict, to set and arrive to that 'commanded position' and where that position lies, as you've identified.

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Thank you very much for your post.

There is a lot of overshoot, and i think part of it is that the fringe elements on both sides are pushing one another even father apart. The fringe of the one side puts a chip on the shoulder of the other side, and vise versa.

I fully agree that we need unity rather than conflict. We are at the mercy of each other, so i think we could use more understanding and communication.

This is a two-way street. We need to acknowledge that calling someone a "racist" isn't a constructive say to approach the issue. We also need to be clear that social justice continues to be important, even though we have some very loud people who take specific issues way too far.

Absentglare said:

Thank you very much for your post.

There is a lot of overshoot, and i think part of it is that the fringe elements on both sides are pushing one another even father apart. The fringe of the one side puts a chip on the shoulder of the other side, and vise versa.

I fully agree that we need unity rather than conflict. We are at the mercy of each other, so i think we could use more understanding and communication.

This is a two-way street. We need to acknowledge that calling someone a "racist" isn't a constructive say to approach the issue. We also need to be clear that social justice continues to be important, even though we have some very loud people who take specific issues way too far.

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Not much to disagree with you on here, Absentglare.

Specific to the point of moving ever further apart, I'd contribute this citation:

Right and Left Are Moving Farther Apart, And Fast
The Pew study measures responses to issues Pew has been asking about since 1994, things like welfare, race, and immigration. On almost every count, the gaps between Republicans and Democrats held more or less steady up until around 2010, when they began to widen. Today, “Republicans and Democrats are now further apart ideologically than at any point in more than two decades,” with the median Republican more conservative than 97 percent of Democrats and the median Democrat more liberal than 95 percent of Republicans. Here’s what that looks like in a chart:

. . . .
Identity Politics Is Poisoning American Civic Life
That brings us to something else that might get lost in the Pew numbers: the median Democratic voter has radicalized much faster than the median Republican voter, and most of this radicalization happened while a Democratic president was in office. That counterintuitive trend points to a larger problem with how the Left in particular understands the American project and our prospects for living together in peace and prosperity. Although it’s true that Republicans have moved further to the right as Democrats have moved further to the left, it’s the leftward slide that should worry us.

For all their shortcomings, conservatives at least have a limiting principle for politics. Most of them believe, for example, in the principles enshrined in the Constitution and maintain that no matter how bad things are, the Bill of Rights is a necessary bulwark, sometimes the only bulwark, against tyranny and violence. In contrast, here’s Timothy Egan of The New York Times arguing unabashedly for the repeal of the Second and Fifth Amendments.

The rapid radicalization of Democrats along these lines follows a ruthless logic about the entire premise of the American constitutional order. If you believe, as progressives increasingly do, that America was founded under false pretenses and built on racial oppression, then why bother conserving it? And why bother trying to compromise with those on the other side, especially if they reject progressives’ unifying theory that America is forever cursed by its original sin of slavery, which nothing can expiate?

https://thefederalist.com/2017/10/1...ting-culture-wars-will-end-another-civil-war/

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May be that there's a bit of overshoot in this article, but perhaps not. I suppose it's left up to the reader to decide for themselves on that front.

eohrnberger said:

Not much to disagree with you on here, Absentglare.

Specific to the point of moving ever further apart, I'd contribute this citation:



May be that there's a bit of overshoot in this article, but perhaps not. I suppose it's left up to the reader to decide for themselves on that front.

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Well, i certainly didn't agree with every sentence, but this, in particular, is really well said:

No matter how tawdry or horrifying the news, there is vanishingly little room for solidarity because there is no appetite for it.

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Though i might ultimately disagree with part of the premise in the article, it is certainly well-intended. We need to listen to each other, even when it makes us uncomfortable. We should not place too much emphasis on blame, though sorting out some of the blame might be helpful in the pursuit of healing.

Absentglare said:

Well, i certainly didn't agree with every sentence, but this, in particular, is really well said:

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Agreed.

Though i might ultimately disagree with part of the premise in the article, it is certainly well-intended. We need to listen to each other, even when it makes us uncomfortable. We should not place too much emphasis on blame, though sorting out some of the blame might be helpful in the pursuit of healing.

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Also agreed. But does make me think of the current commotion on the college campuses when some speakers are engaged to speak, complete with violence (sometimes), and free consuling and safe spaces, just in case some are feeling overly uncomfortable with free speech with which they don't agree.

Not attending would tend to limit some people's exposure, if they are overly uncomfortable with the ideas and speech presented.

Roadvirus said:

I think it depends on the definition of an SJW.

Are we talking about the kind of morons who run around college campuses barfing about tedious crap like "cultural appropriation", "White privilege", and gender pronoun usage and who demand "safe spaces" when Conservatives come to speak because they can't handle the idea of Free Speech and what a Conservative has to say?

or

Are we talking about people like Black Americans who have a legitimate beef such as police brutality?

If it's the first group i mentioned, those idiots aren't about civil rights. They just complain because they have nothing better to do and are in need of some serious therapy. Preferably something that involves shock treatments. And to answer the OP's question, they have nothing but negative impacts.

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First off, I'm a middle-aged white man, strong Christian, retired Navy, grew up in a 72%-black county. I've been around the world and to many different countries, and let me tell you, sir, that having lived the issue of racism from pretty much every side that a white American can experience the issue, I assure you that "white privilege" is very, very real. If you want to gripe about the other labels in your first paragraph, go ahead (yes, there are some on the left who do take it too far)...but white privilege is real and exists in every nation I've been to with the possible exception of Japan. I just wish that I could take those who deny the reality to the places I've been - it wouldn't take long to change their minds.

Don't get me wrong - the admission that white privilege is real doesn't mean that I'm throwing rocks at my fellow whites. The only reason white privilege exists is because we've been on top for the past five hundred years. But think back to the days when Japan was kicking ass economically, back in the early 1980's. All of a sudden it wasn't that unusual to see a Japanese man with a blonde white woman at his side...and that should be all you need to know about "racial privilege": the race that is richest and most powerful will have the most "privilege" in the eyes of the other races. If - when - China becomes the world's preeminent socioeconomic power, you'll see Chinese enjoying "Asian privilege" in the same way that we whites get "white privilege" today.

So yeah, it exists. It wasn't always there - especially before the fall of the Persian Empire when Europe was a pitiful backwater - and it won't be there at some point in the future.

How does that apply to the "SJW" argument? Only in the acknowledgement that white privilege is real, that we whites DO face fewer obstacles than most others do in modern society, and that we should bear that in mind. That doesn't mean that we whites better or worse people - it's just that white privilege is a simple sociological fact on the macro scale, and we ignore that fact and its implications to everyone's detriment.

APB212 said:

Attributing the support of gun rights to a "fetish" is really disingenuous and shows an utter contempt for your fellow Americans. Shame on you.



You tried to put those words in my mouth. In serious discussions, please don't assume racist motives until they're proven beyond reasonable doubt.



That is such a bigoted thing to say, accusing all Trump-supporters of being racist.



The culture of a population can change over time, but the culture of an individual is constrained by his/her upbringing. If I adopt a newborn baby from China (newborn babies have no culture yet), take her back to New Zealand, and raise her in an all-white town with all-white parents, her culture will be New Zealand European and not Chinese. If she goes back to China as an adult and tries to integrate there, she will still be a New Zealand European trying to be Chinese, despite her physical appearance resembling the latter. She will never have the experience that comes from being raised in China by a Chinese family, even if she identifies as Chinese and disdains her New Zealand roots. She also won't know what it's like being raised in New Zealand by a Chinese family, because she hasn't had that experience either.

Of course, one can define a population's culture in sufficiently broad terms that it includes all other cultures. The danger with this is that you no longer have a culture to define, which forces people to seek their identity in smaller subcultures, which inevitably leads to white nationalist movements. I would normally suggest you do such-and-such to avert this before it's too late, but it's already too late, so just try not to provoke the alt-right into violence.

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1. I stand by what I said about the American right wing's gun fetish. A few years back a right-wing friend of mine (most of my friends are conservatives, mind you) stated quite seriously that because of the Second Amendment, he believed that all kids should be able to carry guns to school if they wanted to. He's a bit of an extreme example, but think back to what happened with the massacre at Hobart back in 1996. The Australians showed the courage to implement real gun control, and - as I understand it - have yet to have a mass shooting since then....whereas so far in 2017, we've had a mass shooting almost every freaking DAY. But the moment anyone on the Right mentions "gun control", they're immediately ostracized as a "RINO", a Republican in name only, and is squarely targeted by the NRA-backed Fox News for defeat in the very next election.

Maybe you don't like the connotations of the word "fetish", but how many freaking innocent people have to die before the Republicans get a clue about gun control? Three weeks ago it was 59 dead and over 500 wounded, but all the Republicans would say is, "Now is not the time to talk about gun control!"

So how about you? What would it take before you would call it a party-wide gun fetish?

2. Try reading what I write before assuming that I'm calling all Republicans racist. I said "Before the right-wing racists took control of our government under Trump". That does NOT refer to all Republicans in America. It refers to the Trump administration. I was raised as a white racist, and because of that, I know them when I see them...and Trump and his administration is racist. I really don't care if that statement offends you...but that is a factual statement.

Buzz62 said:

What is it your mother told you, when you came across a bully in elementary school?
Mine told me to ignore them and they'd go away. Then my dad added..."unless they hit you".

Is the Social Justice Warrior, and indeed the entire Politically Correct movement, having a positive or negative impact on Liberal politics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzc8glS2r_o

I have always cast my votes for the candidate who best reflects my opinions and beliefs at any given time. Thus I've voted Liberal, Conservative, and even once came close for voting for the NDP. But I had already had enough of the PC ever-lovin' SJW before Donny got elected, and after seeing the response to the last presidential election, and the ill feeling I get everytime I have to listen to Canada's PM Pixey-Dust, I'm presently a firm conservative vote.

I'm curious how other independents and centerists feel about this?

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This would be interesting as an actual poll.

I vote negative.

Tanngrisnir said:

That shopworn bull**** yet again? It's been debunked here countless times.

Removing memorials/statues honoring Confederates is:

A. Not erasing history in the least. The books are all still there. The museums are still standing.
B. Nothing even remotely like what the Taliban did.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

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No reason we can't depict Union soldiers and their superiors fighting Confederate soldiers and their superiors.

Moderate Right said:

No reason we can't depict Union soldiers and their superiors fighting Confederate soldiers and their superiors.

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Sure, and when Klansmen erect statues of these Confederates many decades after the civil war, you are free to worship them, blowing that dog whistle as hard as you like.

But you're not entitled to force the public to join you.

Absentglare said:

Sure, and when Klansmen erect statues of these Confederates many decades after the civil war, you are free to worship them, blowing that dog whistle as hard as you like.

But you're not entitled to force the public to join you.

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How are statues depicting Union Soldiers fighting Confederate soldiers "worship"?

Moderate Right said:

How are statues depicting Union Soldiers fighting Confederate soldiers "worship"?

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I guess it depends on the purpose of the statue... Chill, chill, I'm actually kind of agreeing with you a bit, in this context specifically. The statues "honoring" Confederates are dumb and inappropriate in my opinion, but statues depicting the war with the struggle of both sides represented....I could budge a bit on that one, I think, depending on the context.

(Sorry, as I type this, I realize this is off topic, but really, the OP is basically undebatable, since folks who feel social justice is important and folks who don't are not going to be convinced of the other side's opinion, so this just seemed more interesting)

OlNate said:

I guess it depends on the purpose of the statue... Chill, chill, I'm actually kind of agreeing with you a bit, in this context specifically. The statues "honoring" Confederates are dumb and inappropriate in my opinion, but statues depicting the war with the struggle of both sides represented....I could budge a bit on that one, I think, depending on the context.

(Sorry, as I type this, I realize this is off topic, but really, the OP is basically undebatable, since folks who feel social justice is important and folks who don't are not going to be convinced of the other side's opinion, so this just seemed more interesting)

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It's "undebatable" because, as the consensus so far shows, the PC/SJW movement is having a negative effect on Liberalism.

However, I think it's interesting that you find statues of confederate soldiers dumb and "inappropriate".
Are you, somehow, embarrassed of the history of the USA? Of the struggles and efforts it's taken to create the USA?

In my country, our first PM was a drunk. Not only that, but he had some rather "colonial" ideas concerning the natives.
Because of this, your Canuck counter parts up here are changing the names schools named after of Sir John A McDonald.
Unbelievably dumb.

Buzz62 said:

It's "undebatable" because, as the consensus so far shows, the PC/SJW movement is having a negative effect on Liberalism.

However, I think it's interesting that you find statues of confederate soldiers dumb and "inappropriate".
Are you, somehow, embarrassed of the history of the USA? Of the struggles and efforts it's taken to create the USA?

In my country, our first PM was a drunk. Not only that, but he had some rather "colonial" ideas concerning the natives.
Because of this, your Canuck counter parts up here are changing the names schools named after of Sir John A McDonald.
Unbelievably dumb.

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Psst...your country is my country. And I think there is a difference between recording, teaching, and understanding history and creating misplaced glory through naming practices and statues, when perhaps, after the evidence is looked at, they didn't deserve it.

Anyway...you seem like you're spoiling for a fight, and I'm kinda reaching the end of my day here, so I'll wish you good luck with all of that, and be glad that the direction in Canada was determined in our last election, putting our American-wannabe conservatives out on their asses, along with their newly adopted alt-right stupidity.

People whining about sjw's whining are just whiners themselves.

Glen Contrarian said:

Boy oh boy oh boy. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as if you're one of those who spends lots and lots of time focusing on how terrible those nonwhites are. The rest of my reply is going on the assumption that I'm right about you.

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What is it with Southern people that you all are so pompous and think everything about the black South (e.g., HBCU's) is an exact portrait of every Northern American city?

I've was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia while in the Marines. I used to frequent Hampton University and Norfolk State--their campuses. Care to point out their equivalents to me in the City of Milwaukee? I was raised ethically Black-American on the North Side of Milwaukee (I'm racially mulatto). Some of my black family members were associated with or members of Folks Nation under the 6 point star.

Folks and People (nations that break down into organizations like the GD's and VL's who further break down into "gangs") were part of Black-American children (in grade schools) lives like black college fraternities and sororities were/are in many Southern raised black children lives (prior to the Northern gangs spreading so rapidly down there). When I was stationed in Norfolk the Vice Lords (VL's) were just setting up presence in Portsmouth, Virginia. The VL, GD, LK's, Spanish Cobras had been in Milwaukee many years before then. The LK's (Latin Kings) were in Milwaukee probably decades before they ever arrived in New York City. So, what I'm saying is as a grade school child I used to here other grade school kids reciting this: "If I die lay me to rest and tell King Hoover I did my best."

King Hoover is or was Larry Hoover of Chicago. The Chairman of the Board of the GD's. These were black kids in Milwaukee that never laid eyes on King Hoover and some of them had never yet been to Chicago. That was their Martin Luther King Jr.

It's like hopping your hillbilly behind into Vietnam but understanding zero about the people. But you think some how you're going to "win" in the great war because you're "a good guy." You know jack.

It so happens in the USA that those "super-gangs" as the FBI or whoever calls them, are basically black and Latino gangs. There are some white gangs under the 6 and 5 point stars like say... the Simon City Royals (originally from Chicago again). They have a tiny presence in metro Milwaukee. They are no "super-gang" though.

But if I wanted to be "racist" why would I have pointed out the Camorra? They are generally regarded as "mafia" as I said. But in my opinion if they are "mafia" than so are the Crips, GD, VL, and LK's. I'll admit the Camorra are international (but then so are the Crips now) are making billions of dollars in selling drugs and manufacturing knock-off brand goods. But as I said they induct teenagers into their membership and are loosely organized not so unlike black and Latino super-gangs.

So, in my opinion the Southern Italian Camorra based in Naples is more analogous to Black-American super-gangs. The Nigerian Crime Circle headquartered in Nigeria is more analogous in my view to at least the Russian "mafyia" (who are more loosely organized than the Sicilians or American La Cosa Nostra) and possibly analogous to the Sicilian Mafia and American La Cosa Nostra.




I don't just focus on "non-whites" by the way. I've done a lot more reading into the American La Cosa Nostra. I've done some reading more narrowed down on the former Milwaukee Family of the La Cosa Nostra, and even more narrowed down on Paul Castellano of the New York City Gambino Crime Family of La Cosa Nostra. His fat swollen, stocky bodyguard and driver, walked into an NYC bar and made the male owner (who he beat up badly many days before then, with a baseball bat) get down on his knees before all the customers in the bar, and perform oral sex on him. Milwaukee mobsters meeting with mobsters in Chicago, had a prominent Italian Milwaukee man into politics and business I think tagging along. They physically assaulted him, then urinated all over him in front of the Chicago mobsters.

A little bit different than the God Father movie.

But one would never have broken mafia hold in Italian/Sicilian communities if one understood zero about the Italian and Sicilians community cultures in the US or in Italy and Sicily.

The Italian and Sicilian community culture is not something I grew up in or ever knew. I grew up in Black-American culture in Milwaukee.

OlNate said:

Psst...your country is my country. And I think there is a difference between recording, teaching, and understanding history and creating misplaced glory through naming practices and statues, when perhaps, after the evidence is looked at, they didn't deserve it.

Anyway...you seem like you're spoiling for a fight, and I'm kinda reaching the end of my day here, so I'll wish you good luck with all of that, and be glad that the direction in Canada was determined in our last election, putting our American-wannabe conservatives out on their asses, along with their newly adopted alt-right stupidity.

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Until the next election, when Pixey-Dust gets the heave-hoe and real immigration and refugee policies get put in place...

Glen Contrarian said:

Here's a clue: I used to be one of you.

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Here's a clue: white man "the good guy": you never used to be nothing of me.

Was your white [A word] confused for my brown [A word] in a North Side bar in Milwaukee frequented by Gangster Disciples? You know... as blacks, whites, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans all frequently think I'm Puerto Rican.

Because the Latin Kings had many Puerto Ricans in them in Milwaukee on the South Side. Mortal enemies as they were of the GD's. So, one black guy takes a seat next to me at the bar counter, two other position themselves standing behind me. And the one--their boss--seated next to me introduces himself, "I'm from Chicago." And then inquires as to what I'm doing in the bar. Long story short, they had been told days before then I was not Rican but mulatto and "black." I looked Rican to them and for them that was good enough guilt. That is to say, good enough to look like I could fit into the LK's (Latin Kings). So, the giy let me know indirectly it would be best I move around. I finished my drink and did.

No, "nice guy," you've never been none of me.

There was a time that I would have agreed with you and would have said the same things you did - sorta comes with growing up white in the MS Delta, the very deepest of the Deep South. Funny thing is, even though I and all my family and (white) friends were racist, none of us would have admitted to have being racist. We would have been greatly offended at being called racist, for we honestly believed that the only racists were those idiots who did (what we would today call) Cosplay in white robes and silly hats.

Then I left and joined the Navy and saw the world...and learned that yes, human beings really are the same, all over the world. Yes, our cultures and religions may vary wildly, but once one looks past the religions and cultures, one sees that there is no real difference at all.

Now, as to your rant about nonwhite gangs, here's a clue: if you want a violent culture, it's REAL easy - keep a segment of the population poor (especially if it's the same ones who were treated as slaves for centuries and second-class citizens for another century just because of the color they were born with), and then give that population easy access to guns, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going to happen.

In other words, if you want to blame someone for the rampant gun violence (which btw is FAR below what it was in the 1980's), blame those who wanted to make sure that everybody (even the bad guys) could easily get firearms. And blame the ones who don't want firearms registered and tracked, thereby ensuring that guns are so easily smuggled and sold on the black market (for instance, the quarter-million firearms that are illegally smuggled from America into Mexico every freaking year).

In summary, it ain't the color, guy. It's the poverty combined with easy access to firearms. You don't have to take my word for it - look for yourself what the homicide rates of high-poverty and low-minority states like West Virginia and Alaska are. Of course, you can just ignore all this and go join the Right's worship of the NRA. It's up to you.

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@ Blu bold: :roll: Yeah, that's directly comparable, culturally the same, as growing up in the Californian City of LA in a neighborhood steeped in Crip history and families. Absolutely no differences at all. [sarcasm]



Anyways... if it makes you feel better... California has a lot of white gangs. Mainly skinhead type gangs. But California is also the birth place of the ruthless white organized crime group, the prison gang: the Aryan Brotherhood.

(LA and Chicago have birthed and exported most of the nation's largest super-gangs or smaller organized crime gangs from prisons. Texas might follow in behind in 3rd place possibly.)



Good movie. Just watched it on DVD yesterday. Fiction but drawing upon *some* factual elements of California prisons.





A black ex-con reviews that movie and gives his opinion.

FastPace said:

What is it with Southern people that you all are so pompous and think everything about the black South (e.g., HBCU's) is an exact portrait of every Northern American city?

I've was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia while in the Marines. I used to frequent Hampton University and Norfolk State--their campuses. Care to point out their equivalents to me in the City of Milwaukee? I was raised ethically Black-American on the North Side of Milwaukee (I'm racially mulatto). Some of my black family members were associated with or members of Folks Nation under the 6 point star.

Folks and People (nations that break down into organizations like the GD's and VL's who further break down into "gangs") were part of Black-American children (in grade schools) lives like black college fraternities and sororities were/are in many Southern raised black children lives (prior to the Northern gangs spreading so rapidly down there). When I was stationed in Norfolk the Vice Lords (VL's) were just setting up presence in Portsmouth, Virginia. The VL, GD, LK's, Spanish Cobras had been in Milwaukee many years before then. The LK's (Latin Kings) were in Milwaukee probably decades before they ever arrived in New York City. So, what I'm saying is as a grade school child I used to here other grade school kids reciting this: "If I die lay me to rest and tell King Hoover I did my best."

...

The Italian and Sicilian community culture is not something I grew up in or ever knew. I grew up in Black-American culture in Milwaukee.

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1. I did it again - I read your previous post too quickly and missed the part where you said you "grew up in the 'hood"...and so I made an assumption about you and I was wrong. Please accept my apology - it's sincere - because I thought that you were white, and yes, if I'd actually read what I should have read, then I would have known instinctively that your set of knowledge and understanding was completely different from what I assumed that it was (and I think I can safely say that we all adjust our rhetoric for whomever it is we're debating). I screwed the pooch in my last reply in that respect. And the reason I said "I did it again" is that this isn't the first time and won't be the last that I've missed important stuff by reading too quickly. It's my fault and no one else's.

2. You do know a heck of a lot more about the world's gangs than I do - I've got no problem admitting that. But I would still say that my point stands that America's problem is the ease with which poor Americans are able to get firearms, whether legally or illegally. Make it much harder for them to get firearms, and you're going to see the homicide rate drop significantly. That was the point I was trying to make.

3. When it comes to life in the inner city - the American inner city - as you say, I don't know jack. But when it comes to living in a poverty-ridden inner city, I do know a thing or two about that (got a house in Manila, 15M people with poverty worse than most Americans ever see, and nearly-nonexistent social services), and I do see a bit what grinding poverty does to a person. It's not just the hunger or the lack of a safe place to sleep, but the sheer hopelessness, of looking around and knowing that it will be almost impossible to get out of the poverty, that no one cares about each other, and that one is trapped there for life. It's a true megalopolis...and a bit of a far cry from growing up out in the boonies in the Delta.

4. You should write a book - a lot of people would like to hear what you have to say. Also, I strongly recommend that you spend some time on Quora.com - it's far bigger than DP, and its population is truly international, egalitarian, and cosmopolitan. I think you'd enjoy it very much.

Buzz62 said:

Until the next election, when Pixey-Dust gets the heave-hoe and real immigration and refugee policies get put in place...

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Yes dear... :roll: lol As I said, Canada has decided where it's going. Trudeau isn't perfect, there's lots of things I could criticize him for, and maybe there's a chance he won't get a second chance, but I could see an NDP government in power long before I could see a Conservative government, especially in it's current, disgraceful version. You guys lost your way when you dropped the Progressive from your party name. Now all the Conservatives have become is a meme, and a sad one at that.