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How to reduce health care prices 80% in 2 easy steps:

OldFatGuy said:
I have no doubt, over the years, many have witnessed and participated in similar threads. I also have no doubts after reading much of what has been said, that healthcare in the US needs a new rethinking from the onset through death. I say onset rather than birth because I believe preventative healthcare should commence with preconception, the healthcare of the potential parents, a prenatal care prior to prenatal. This can only occur with a shift of thinking from remuneration for treating symptoms to focus on prevention. Obviously we cannot walk away from treating symptoms, yet prevention will reduce both illnesses and costs. It would be far less expensive to increase physical education and teach exercise as a pleasure, in our school systems from preschool forward, to prevent obesity and all the accompanying illnesses like diabetes type II and many cancers, as well as Atherosclerosis which leads to heart disease, strokes, insufficient blood supply to lower limbs followed by gangrene and amputation, and sight issues.

Children, when healthy, are naturally physical, and that physicality should be encouraged as much as possible in our education system. Healthy bodies, well exercised means more muscle mass, which in turn develop with increased blood vessel formation, meaning less stress for the heart and arterial system, and more blood delivery to the brain. The benefits are obvious. In tandem, the best possible nutritional guidance must be taught and become part of our school lunch systems. Designed to maintain healthy bodies, which means learning far more about nutrition. A necessary adjunct to healthcare where we have another imbroglio of methodology. We study the effects of specific foods in the diet without examining how those same foods interact with other dietary intake is meaningless. And when a food study shows eating cheese is good for the heart, but the study is underwritten by the Wisconsin Cheese Association, can the study be trusted? Reduce the demand for healthcare by living physically preventative lives will reduce demand, and concurrently reduce costs for healthcare. No other species can run with the same stamina as human beings. Why do we tell our children to walk, not run? Why aren't we teaching them to enjoy the running?

https://youtu.be/6TWwyhCVBDg
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does the old fat guy agree with OP???
 
James972 said:
1) have people shop with their own money or vouchers and keep what they don't spend
2) have providers compete on basis of price and quality
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I love it? Of course! Imagine that. Competition.
 
Crovax said:
I think healthcare might be in that 1% though. The majority of healthcare costs are from emergency/hospital care and your aren't always in a position to comp shop when you need a hospital
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with published prices you would know what hospitals to avoid when your time comes.
 
Crovax said:
to mention there are plenty of areas where there is no viable alternative choice.
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it the price quality is good you do't need an alternative. If someone has high prices and low quality he encourages competition. Makes sense?
 
James972 said:
it the price quality is good you do't need an alternative. If someone has high prices and low quality he encourages competition. Makes sense?
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High barriers to entry... make sense?
 
James972 said:
why not?? if you want the best price and quality which we all do we will all shop around. I have a friend who went from Maine to PA to save $1600 on an mri. Makes sense now?
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Yeah an MRI to see a boil on your butt and your son dying with cancer is the same.

There's no competition in HC, nor will there ever be.
 
James972 said:
make the hospital treat them at the 80% reduced free market price and govt pays, happily at that price.
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But if those people aren't shopping around because they aren't paying the bill anyways then that's lack of competition. Not to mention that now that hospital has to fill out paperwork to get government money requiring more people to do paperwork therefor upping the bill. Etc.

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Not at all.

As a capitalist, I understand a healthy America is a productive America. I'm a firm believer in Universal preventative healthcare, and when necessary, universal healthcare and elimination of independent insurers for basic care.
 
The ACA is not a single payer system. Show how the ACA has given gov't more authority, and proved corrupt and inept? The ACA is extension of powers for insurers, granting massive increases in new higher premiums and as they cry on the way to the bank that they are losing money and need more expensive premiums, examination of health insurer P&L's since the enactment of the ACA have shown massive increase in profits. 20 mil new policies have pleased equity investors.

BTW, Nancy did a great job governing Ronald. And she did a great job governing the nation. She was an excellent president incognito. :)
 
Mr Person said:
Have you tried shopping around for the best price while unconscious or while suffering a heart attack?

Some of the most expensive care happens in the ER and people in the ER aren't in a position to shop around. There are many other obvious examples of care that people cannot realistically shop for. Have you thought about all the types of care that are consumed - even by general category - and worked out a realistic scenario in which people could shop around for it?
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And hospitals are required to treat them even if they can't pay.
I think that's a good thing, but it throws a wrench in the free market concept.
 
James972 said:
not sure what you mean. a passion for profit can help motivate someone to provide the best price and quality possible
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What you are saying is not what we see specially from health industry and food industry.

Passion for profit usually will fight against anything that interfere in their profit, such as competition, quality and safeness. Reason why companies installed their industries in China, guess why...
Also the reason in so many industries they sell low quality products with super high prices just because of some fancy design.

What motivates the best price and quality is not the passion for profit but competition and company size (and more than often the best price has not the best quality and best quality has not the best price).

Take Germany for example. Is a heavily familiar small and middle size industrial country that sustain 99% of the country economy. They have the know-how of quality product and for this reason they develop technologies and machinery for industries all over the world. And what for!? Profit? Well yes after all without profit there is no business but not only that, Germans are very attached to their familiar business tradition and engineering (reason why their over engineering photographic cameras loosed market for the Japaneses simplified and cheaper cameras). A lot of family business wait up to more than 20 years to actually pay off their initial investments to start their business, and nobody doing business focused on profit alone would comity themselves to such long time investment but prefer invest on something with short time profit like we see to be more common in America.

This commitment to work on something along with profit is also the reason Nordic countries and Japan has more automation than in North America. Because Automation is expensive initial investment that takes longer for business to pay off their initial investments, but once paid off their business becomes more profitable. But if their eyes was alone on profit they would never commit themselves to wait so many years to start have profit but look for a way to have quick money.
 
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CletusWilbury said:
And hospitals are required to treat them even if they can't pay.
I think that's a good thing, but it throws a wrench in the free market concept.
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Yes, they are, and that's one of the things Obamacare's mandate was aimed at. If they treat but don't get paid, they simply renegotiate higher fees with insurers, which then raise premiums.
 
James972 said:
voucher would be based on health/age. if someone needed more they could get another voucher but with prices down 80% it would not be a burden to provide the extra voucher.
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Wait, they can just get more "money" for health care, for free, and that wont drive prices right back up?
 
Deuce said:
Wait, they can just get more "money" for health care, for free, and that wont drive prices right back up?
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its already free money for health care from govt or insurance, with new system you keep what you don't spend so price pressure would be hugely down. Makes sense?
 
Mr Person said:
Have you tried shopping around for the best price while unconscious or while suffering a heart attack?
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you shop before you get sick! you know a Rolls Royce is expensive long before your current car breaks down.
 
CletusWilbury said:
And hospitals are required to treat them even if they can't pay.
I think that's a good thing, but it throws a wrench in the free market concept.
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not really. all prices are published so ER has to charge competitive rates or go bankrupt. This is mostly how a free market operates.
 
C R O I X said:
What you are saying is not what we see specially from health industry and food industry.

Passion for profit usually will fight against anything that interfere in their profit, such as competition, quality and safeness. Reason why companies installed their industries in China, guess why...
Also the reason in so many industries they sell low quality products with super high prices just because of some fancy design.

What motivates the best price and quality is not the passion for profit but competition and company size (and more than often the best price has not the best quality and best quality has not the best price).

Take Germany for example. Is a heavily familiar small and middle size industrial country that sustain 99% of the country economy. They have the know-how of quality product and for this reason they develop technologies and machinery for industries all over the world. And what for!? Profit? Well yes after all without profit there is no business but not only that, Germans are very attached to their familiar business tradition and engineering (reason why their over engineering photographic cameras loosed market for the Japaneses simplified and cheaper cameras). A lot of family business wait up to more than 20 years to actually pay off their initial investments to start their business, and nobody doing business focused on profit alone would comity themselves to such long time investment but prefer invest on something with short time profit like we see to be more common in America.

This commitment to work on something along with profit is also the reason Nordic countries and Japan has more automation than in North America. Because Automation is expensive initial investment that takes longer for business to pay off their initial investments, but once paid off their business becomes more profitable. But if their eyes was alone on profit they would never commit themselves to wait so many years to start have profit but look for a way to have quick money.
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long meandering rant. please try to make one good point at a time. more words usually means less wisdom. In court you get to ask one question at a time, no speeches allowed.
anyway, a passion for profit means you must offer the best prices and quality since that is how you make a big profit
 
James972 said:
you shop before you get sick! you know a Rolls Royce is expensive long before your current car breaks down.
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So you shop around for all possible emergencies that could befall you?



Derp
 
James972 said:
long meandering rant. please try to make one good point at a time. more words usually means less wisdom. In court you get to ask one question at a time, no speeches allowed.
anyway, a passion for profit means you must offer the best prices and quality since that is how you make a big profit
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It is far from true in the real world that a big profit is made with best price and best quality.

I could explain and give examples of why you are terribly wrong and about my point but you call understanding and explanation as less wisdom and as meandering rant. So you keep your sentence and I keep mine.
 
James972 said:
not really. all prices are published so ER has to charge competitive rates or go bankrupt. This is mostly how a free market operates.
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LOL Competitive with who? Do you think accident victims can pick which hospital they go to? You do not have a clue, there is and never will be a free market in hospital care. Why do you think all other western nations pay 1/2 of what we do for as good or better outcomes? They want to keep providers who actually want to treat the sick and injured not those that just want to make a killing in the "business". Our "charge what ever you can get away with" system is sucking us dry.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Competitive with who? Do you think accident victims can pick which hospital they go to?
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don't have to bad hospitals would have already been been eliminated by competition. When you buy a car in a free market you know the bad ones have already been eliminated and anything that survived competition is good or excellent. Makes sense now?
 
iguanaman said:
Why do you think all other western nations pay 1/2 of what we do for as good or better outcomes? .
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1) because they are poorer
2) they are better at socialism than we are
3) they get cheap prices from us and rely on our inventions and creation of health care.

makes sense now?
 
iguanaman said:
Our "charge what ever you can get away with" system is sucking us dry.
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thats why Adam Smith invented capitalism. Do you understand what capitalism is?
 
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