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Stossel, Happy Birthday Communism

OlNate said:
hehe...oh, I hear you, the name Socialism (and Communism, for that matter) certainly has been dragged through the mud.
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Not according to me, Wikipedia or Britannica. I’d say that socialists have done a lot of stomping on the definitions though.

Communism and Socialism are two different things
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They are two different things just as straw-yellow white wine and yellow-green white wine are two different things. Nothing to write home about. If you think the difference matters much you should take it up with the encyclopedias. You don’t write them I assume. Until you do, I’ll take their definition over yours, thanks.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
When does a country go from being capitalist to being socialist?
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I don't know. But almost all developed economies in the world today are some kind of hybrid mixed economy- an uneasy and dynamic balance between competing, but often equally legitimate demands. And that's not because they are stupid. It's just because pragmatically, like most things in life, the best way forward is an uneasy juggling between competing demands. This is what people do when they juggle between how much to work and how much time to spend with their family. Your question is a little like asking when does a person go from being a hard worker to being a workaholic. It depends on the individual circumstances. But some compromise, some juggling of competing demands, some judgment and prudence, some consideration of the specifics of your particular situation, is often necessary in life to develop sustainable, stable situations. Blind unthinking adherence to pure ideologies is often a road to extremism and disaster.

The US actually gave up on pure capitalism a long time ago: end of the 19th/early 20th centuries. That was long before the USSR gave up on pure communism. The late 19th century was the gilded age, the age of robber barons and monopolists, of child labor exploitation and abuse and ever increasing disparities in the extremes of wealth and poverty. Things weren't getting better on their own when left alone. They just kept getting worse. Only after some decent and common sense child labor laws, workplace safety laws, antitrust laws, etc... were passed, did these problems improve.
 
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Rob Larrikin said:
Not according to me, Wikipedia or Britannica. I’d say that socialists have done a lot of stomping on the definitions though.



They are two different things just as straw-yellow white wine and yellow-green white wine are two different things. Nothing to write home about. If you think the difference matters much you should take it up with the encyclopedias. You don’t write them I assume. Until you do, I’ll take their definition over yours, thanks.
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The way the word "socialism" is used in today's political discourse is different. If you don't think so, then you obviously advocate getting rid of public schools, police and fire departments, and even the military. Because strictly speaking, those are all socialism. So you want to get rid of all those because you don't like socialism?
 
ataraxia said:
People here want to shut down public schools and take away Medicare and social security because there are some Antifa demonstrators on the street.

Come on. Is this really about Antifa, or is Antifa just an excuse?
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You said above, "tell us who in this country is advocating for FULL socialism or communism?"

BLM and Antifa are two groups. There are plenty of demonstrators supporting socialism and communism. They don't show them much on Fake News, so you'll have to watch Fox instead.
 
Rob Larrikin said:
You said above, "tell us who in this country is advocating for FULL socialism or communism?"

BLM and Antifa are two groups. There are plenty of demonstrators supporting socialism and communism. They don't show them much on Fake News, so you'll have to watch Fox instead.
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BLM advocates communism? How?

And Antifa is more anarchist than communist. They are anti-fascism and anti-government, more than PRO anything. Communism is a dictatorial system with a strong central government. So how can you be pr-dictatorial central government when you are an anarchist? Doesn't make sense. As far as I can tell, they are closer to today's liberterians than communists.
 
ataraxia said:
The way the word "socialism" is used in today's political discourse is different. If you don't think so, then you obviously advocate getting rid of public schools, police and fire departments, and even the military. Because strictly speaking, those are all socialism. So you want to get rid of all those because you don't like socialism?
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America and all other Western capitalist democracies have been invaded by commies (and or socialists) since the Cold War. Look up 'The Fifth Column'. They came from the Soviet Union and China, and were trained to infiltrate everything important. Their job was to destroy the fabric of Western life, and eat Western democracies from the inside out. They did a very good job, but we're still lurching along, surviving.

You may think of those countries as people with cancer. The cancer doesn't stop them being bankers, butchers, bakers, etc.

Not yet.

If things continue as they are, that's a different matter. That is why Trump is so important.
 
ataraxia said:
BLM advocates communism? How?
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By advocating it.

Tucker Carlson (for one) interviewed people who got close to Antifa and asked, "Who were they exactly?" The answer was pretty straightforward. "They were mostly communists," he said. Others have said that BLM are no different. They show none of this on Fake News. Not by the hair on your chinny chin chin.

Aside from everything else, BLM and Antifa are recognizable to those who study communist rabble-rousers. They have the stench of communism all over them.

That's it for me for today. Ciao.
 
Rob Larrikin said:
America and all other Western capitalist democracies have been invaded by commies (and or socialists) since the Cold War. Look up 'The Fifth Column'. They came from the Soviet Union and China, and were trained to infiltrate everything important. Their job was to destroy the fabric of Western life, and eat Western democracies from the inside out. They did a very good job, but we're still lurching along, surviving.

You may think of those countries as people with cancer. The cancer doesn't stop them being bankers, butchers, bakers, etc.

Not yet.

If things continue as they are, that's a different matter. That is why Trump is so important.
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This sounds like paranoid drivel. And you didn't answer my questions. Was it the fifth column that set up our public school systems, fire deparmtnets, and police departments too? And Trump is going to make America great again by getting rid of these socialist institutions that are eating away at "the fabric of Western life, and eat Western democracies"?

Come on, man. Get an education. This is really ridiculous. What's eating away at western life and western democracy is THIS level of ignorance and paranoia. In fact, that is EXACTLY what is being used by the Russians today to run our country for us. Did you know that they now know that the Russians specifically targeted paranoia about BLM in their Facebook ads for Trump in swing states like WI and MI to get him elected?

LOL. You seem to hate the Russians so much, and are proving to be their biggest and enthusiastic pawn.... oh, the irony.

Or wait.... You don't happen to really be some guy called Mikhail and writing this stuff from the basement in the Kremlin, are you?
 
Rob Larrikin said:
Not according to me, Wikipedia or Britannica. I’d say that socialists have done a lot of stomping on the definitions though.



They are two different things just as straw-yellow white wine and yellow-green white wine are two different things. Nothing to write home about. If you think the difference matters much you should take it up with the encyclopedias. You don’t write them I assume. Until you do, I’ll take their definition over yours, thanks.
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lol... I assume you read the article I posted that fully discusses the differences...I mean, you seem way too civil and socially adjusted as to fire shots with your head up your ass...no, seriously, you do. :thumbs:

And you, and the encyclopedias *don't* think the name has been dragged through the mud by corrupt governments furthering their agenda through a bait and switch of a "utopian" concept? So, you are thinking the Russian implementation of Communism was on point with the original intention of Communism, and should be considered exemplary in it's execution? Sorry, I'm confused with what you quoted and what you said, as it kinda makes it seem like you are defending Russian communism... That the case?

Also, the Encyclopedia Britannica is still a thing? This was probably the best part of your post, as I had thought previously that it had gone the way of VCR's and polaroid pictures... Sincerely, thank you, it's nice to know that something from my childhood is still marginally relevant. :) Heck, the last set shipped was in 2012 (though it was the 2010 edition)... That's like kinda recent, even...
 
OlNate said:
Except they're not (the same). Webster's dictionary exists to help us understand what words mean, but a cool bi-product is that it helps us understand the difference between words as well, and in my experience it has generally worked out better for me when I've taken the time to understand those differences before going on a rant, thought you might like to benefit from the same. Just trying to be a blessing over here, don't be such a grouch. ;) lolz



That's just the Koolaid they've been giving ya, bud, the dictionary is still the final authority. :) It's kind of like saying all Conservatives are Nazis. For some people it's come to mean the same thing, but it's still inaccurate.
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Definitions don't mean squat....only actions
 
<alt>doxygen said:
That's because here too many people are home schooled with alt-facts and think reality is fake news because the reality star they made POTUS said so.:lol:
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That's lame. You people don't have the guts to admit what you follow.
 
WCH said:
Definitions don't mean squat....only actions
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Well, not really...I mean, you're using the actions of one nation to discredit an ideology that was never properly implemented. So your whole theory is based on a falsehood. You don't hate communism, you hate Communist Russia, who then rolled out their messed up implementation of Communism to the other Communist nations. I hate that too...and I'm not that big a fan of "true" or "fundamental" Communism either...but they are two different things.

Definitions matter, if you're trying to communicate your ideas to other people.
 
OlNate said:
Well, not really...I mean, you're using the actions of one nation to discredit an ideology that was never properly implemented. So your whole theory is based on a falsehood. You don't hate communism, you hate Communist Russia, who then rolled out their messed up implementation of Communism to the other Communist nations. I hate that too...and I'm not that big a fan of "true" or "fundamental" Communism either...but they are two different things.

Definitions matter, if you're trying to communicate your ideas to other people.
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Socialism/communism has failed everywhere it's been tried. Who would like that?
 
ataraxia said:
Thinking our only two choices are between communism and capitalism is like thinking your only two choices are between being a workaholic or an unemployed lazy bum.

Many things in life are not either/or, but juggling between competing, but often equally legitimate demands.
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And this is the problem with those that lean right, they suffer from an inability to see anything other than black and white. Their world and views are one way or the other.
 
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Rob Larrikin said:
America and all other Western capitalist democracies have been invaded by commies (and or socialists) since the Cold War. Look up 'The Fifth Column'. They came from the Soviet Union and China, and were trained to infiltrate everything important. Their job was to destroy the fabric of Western life, and eat Western democracies from the inside out. They did a very good job, but we're still lurching along, surviving.

You may think of those countries as people with cancer. The cancer doesn't stop them being bankers, butchers, bakers, etc.

Not yet.

If things continue as they are, that's a different matter. That is why Trump is so important.
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Do you have the Alex Jones brand tin foil hat?
 
ataraxia said:
This sounds like paranoid drivel.
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The Fifth column is simply a large group of people working from inside the States (and other Western countries) to destroy democracy and capitalism and replace it with communism. It began with communist nations funding the effort, and they still do, but there are many who by now work on their own for free. Most teachers and professors for instance, devote their lives to brainwashing students to be socialists. Most journalists do the same. You won’t find them criticizing communism. You will find them criticizing capitalism. They are just the tip of the iceberg. You have billionaires like George Soros and his communists funding all kinds of left winged organizations. There are the unions, infiltrated by many communists, working hard to destroy companies from the inside. There are many left winged judges doing their best to wreck your country. Radical Islamic groups are doing the same. Many minority groups have divided the country, spitting on the flag and refusing to stand at anthems. Many burn the flag too, and have signs saying ‘Down with America’. ‘Down with Capitalism’. Even gays are being lobbied by the Left to become militant.

If you haven’t heard about them it’s time you did:

https://www.google.com/search?q="th...0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.hTMQeVj_Brc

Needless to say ignore the flotsam that comes with searches

Was it the fifth column that set up our public school systems, fire deparmtnets, and police departments too?
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They infiltrate rather than ‘set up’. As a fifth columnist you simply get a job in an institution and then begin working on the people within to accept your anti-capitalistic and anti-democracy agenda. You try and influence who is hired, who is fired, and over time you fill the place with fellow socialists. Obviously getting into higher positions of power makes your job easier. You encourage unionism, you change book lists for students, you fill their heads with communist propaganda, and so on. They did this with political parties (mostly the Democrats and Greens), the media, education, industries, unions, and once all the obvious places were taken, they started working on environmentalists, science, homosexuality, marriage, you name it. In terms of fire departments and police, they will be in those organizations’ unions. Find me the comrade in charge of a fireman’s union, and I’ll show you a communist. He’ll be working hard to get his members to strike, to demand higher wages, to replace big guys with small women, to vote for the Democrats, and so on.

And Trump is going to make America great again by getting rid of these socialist institutions that are eating away at "the fabric of Western life, and eat Western democracies"?
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There is no 'one repair fixes all' method. Trump will do what he can. Millions of Americans (and Westerners) will have to do their part.

Come on, man. Get an education.
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Unfortunately I got one, and had to undo most of it in order to see what’s going on. After that I had to educate myself. Whatever you do, don’t send your kids to university. It’s ten times worse than it was in my day, and even in my day they had us reading books about Che Guevara and how marvellous he was.

What's eating away at western life and western democracy is THIS level of ignorance and paranoia. In fact, that is EXACTLY what is being used by the Russians today to run our country for us.
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Thanks for bringing up the nothingburger Russia. It’s a fine example of what the Fifth Column do. In this case CNN, the New York Times, Washington Post and dozens of other networks and papers worked very hard for about 8 months to create an entirely false story about Trump and the GOP working with the Russians to beat Hillary at the polls. 100% fiction. You obviously swallowed it, and no doubt millions of others did too. Thankfully most didn’t. Conservatives see through the fabrication like it’s a sheet of glass. When that many people see through a lie, it’s very hard to keep it going, so it’s now sputtering out, like a candle in the wind.

That is how they do it. They did the same thing with Nixon and many others. Trump is only their latest victim. They turned Hitler from an extreme left winged National Socialist into a ‘right winger’ using the same technique. Now they’re doing it with the communists ‘Antifa’, by pretending they’re a right winged group. The Fifth Column work together. While the Fake News is busy pumping out their lies, the universities and unions across the country are magnifying and expanding them.
 
OlNate said:
lol... I assume you read the article I posted that fully discusses the differences...I mean, you seem way too civil and socially adjusted as to fire shots with your head up your ass...no, seriously, you do. :thumbs:
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The differences between socialism and communism are like the differences between one dog crap and another dog crap. As far as most people are concerned, dog crap is dog crap.

“Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), Rus. Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik, former republic. It was established in 1922 and dissolved in 1991. The Soviet Union was the first state to be based on Marxist socialism (see also Marxism; communism). Until 1989 the Communist party indirectly controlled all levels of government; the party's politburo effectively ruled the country, and its general secretary was the country's most powerful leader. Soviet industry was owned and managed by the state, and agricultural land was divided into state farms, collective farms, and small, privately held plots.”

Encyclopedia.com | Free Online Encyclopedia


“In marked contrast to such earlier optimism, contemporary socialists are faced with the continued resilience of capitalist societies and the collapse of at least nominally socialist regimes in the USSR and elsewhere, regimes in which state ownership and centralized planning have been accompanied by political repression and economic failure. For those who reject the idea that a suitably regulated form of welfare capitalism is the most that can be hoped for, the task is to construct some alternative model of a socialist economy which is preferable to this yet avoids the evils of centralized state socialism.”

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/socialism/v-1


“…in the early 1930s Marxism was a commitment of faith and a normative guide to revolutionary action. Yet as an experimental theory according to Peircian pragmatic principles, it would admit of “disconfirmation” or refutation in the light of future historical evidence. From this perspective, in the context of the 1920s, the empirical nature of the institutions of the socialist society in the Soviet Union and their development in the near future could be identified as representing factors that would confirm or refute the Marxist hypothesis.

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sidney-hook/


So, you are thinking the Russian implementation of Communism was on point with the original intention of Communism, and should be considered exemplary in it's execution?
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Marx was wrong. Dead wrong. You can boil his theory down to a tiny concentrated point, and this is what you have, in essence:

A bunch of thugs will be in charge. The people will be their slaves. The thugs will make the people work, and will take all the money for themselves. Every person will then be paid a small, equal amount of a few rubles a week. Nobody will be happy. The thugs will become corrupt. Soon there won’t be enough money because the thugs have stolen, overspent, misused, lost or stashed away a lot of it. They give the people less. Some miss out entirely. People starve. Anyone who complains is tortured, sent to the Gulag, or killed. The thugs kill about 100 million people. The system falls apart.

That is what happens when you try and implement Marxism, and it happens each and every time. Ask Mao. Ask Kim. Ask Fidel.

Sorry, I'm confused with what you quoted and what you said, as it kinda makes it seem like you are defending Russian communism... That the case?
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You need to use the quote function. I’m not a mind reader.

Also, the Encyclopedia Britannica is still a thing?
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I directed you to their site didn’t I?

I had thought previously that it had gone the way of VCR's and polaroid pictures...
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No – CD’s and Internet. Books made of trees are so yesterday.

https://www.britannica.com/
 
WCH said:
Socialism/communism has failed everywhere it's been tried. Who would like that?
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Do I get to ask you to prove that, or is that too much to ask... Cuz I can think of a number of European and even (ahem) North American countries (or country) that have adopted socialist aspects - again, by definition socialism encompasses a lot, and is much more of a sliding scale than communism, another key difference. You want to prove that socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried? :)
 
I made this offer about 2 years ago, it still stands. If any Conservative here knows WTF socialism truly is, the drinks are on me.

They use the term socialist and communist as an insult, that's all they got. They truly have NO idea what the words mean.

All they got to do is use Google, but they are too lazy. They rather use the words incorrectly like their heroes Limbaugh and Hannity do. What a bunch of lemmings.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
I made this offer about 2 years ago, it still stands. If any Conservative here knows WTF socialism truly is, the drinks are on me.
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There’ll never be any drinks, as you know. Whatever anyone says, you’ll be against it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29E6GbYdB1c

Lefties change Hitler into a ‘right winger’. They tried turning Trump into a Russian spy. They’re trying to turn Antifa into ‘right wingers’, and they’re trying to pretend that the Soviet Union wasn’t socialist. Why? Because Hitler, Antifa and Stalin all embarrassed them.
 
OlNate said:
Except they're not (the same). Webster's dictionary exists to help us understand what words mean, but a cool bi-product is that it helps us understand the difference between words as well, and in my experience it has generally worked out better for me when I've taken the time to understand those differences before going on a rant, thought you might like to benefit from the same. Just trying to be a blessing over here, don't be such a grouch. ;) lolz



That's just the Koolaid they've been giving ya, bud, the dictionary is still the final authority. :) It's kind of like saying all Conservatives are Nazis. For some people it's come to mean the same thing, but it's still inaccurate.
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Dictionary is pure theory, practice is many times different, and in the case of these forms of govt/economies it's true. Socialism might actually work if it was for humans.
 
ataraxia said:
Thinking our only two choices are between communism and capitalism is like thinking your only two choices are between being a workaholic or an unemployed lazy bum.

Many things in life are not either/or, but juggling between competing, but often equally legitimate demands.
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I don't think you're comparison is a good one.
 
American said:
Dictionary is pure theory, practice is many times different, and in the case of these forms of govt/economies it's true. Socialism might actually work if it was for humans.
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Totally agree... I think like anything else, socialism needs to be tweaked and perfected, if that's the way society is headed. Certainly we've seen good elements of socialism in places around the world in contrast to the colossal failures. It seems that the folks who do best with it move slowly, and learn from their mistakes - again, it is a sliding scale, it need not be as extreme as some communist revolution - you can adopt as much as makes sense, and when compartmentalized it can play well with other ideologies. I don't think that only looking at the failures gives a complete view of the potential, which is at least interesting, given where capitalism has brought us, and how demonstrably unsustainable it appears to have become on any number of fronts...of course, that's a totally different discussion.

Do I think Russian or Chinese or Korean communism, or their brand of socialism, is desirable? Of course not...it's a proven failure. But that's only one manifestation. In light of how the current state is kind of a mess, I'm at least willing to keep an open mind. Best practice sharing is a common thing in business, I don't know why it's so threatening to consider it in governmental or societal contexts.
 
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