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What is a Conservative and a Liberal?

<alt>doxygen said:
He had mistresses and slaves. He was not a Jesus following Christian - he wrote his own bible. So he was not a sociocon as the label applies in the USA currently.
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Yes he did have mistresses and slaves. He proposed this law for Virginia:

"Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least."

It's wrong when a Christian is against polygamy or sodomy, or same-sex marriage or abortion. Really? We're just following our Founding Fathers' beliefs.

Can you cite the reason he wrote his Bible and why he omitted the miracles?

By the way, I am not a sociocon. I am a social conservative.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Trucks and turtles? WTF
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WTF? Does that mean Worship The Faith?

The problem with the law in VA was that they needed a way to define miscarriage out of the bill but keep all terminations of pregnancy in there. The "unborn" who loses his life deserves a day in court just like any other "person". I'm sure you aren't trying to put them in some sub-class of human..[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like you are admitting that the unborn is human since it cannot be an F-150 Pickup nor a turtle. Is that correct? We know it is alive because it can grow. I'll get back to you on the interesting miscarriage issue.

Here is the link to Jefferson's proposed laws: Amendment VIII: Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments

I've not seen any credible evidence that shows anyone but Henry being a follower of Christ, which is a decent root definition of Christian.[/QUOTE]

Before I post some statements, how do you define "Founding Father?" I would not want to quote someone who doesn't count.
 
LesGovt said:
Of course not. I stand for something. I'm still waiting, in vain I may add, for liberals to provide their overarching principles. I think Hell may freeze over first.
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I have my own principles. I need not follow someone else like a sheep
 
This is just a fancy way of entertaining the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. The parsimonious definition is that liberals are progressive, conservatives are regressive. Any other explanation attempts to tie conservatism or liberalism to a subjective point, which is simply nonsense, as evidenced by the fact modern American ideals were once liberal, European ideals.
 
LesGovt said:
A thought just came to mind, Was Thomas Jefferson a social conservative?
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I can't believe you are asking if Thomas Jefferson was a social conservative. A man who in the early 1800's was having babies with black women and had edited the Bible by cutting out all the miracles in it to create the "Jefferson Bible".

In his day that made him a miscegenating heratic. About as far from socially conservative as one can get.
 
LesGovt said:
Of course not. I stand for something. I'm still waiting, in vain I may add, for liberals to provide their overarching principles. I think Hell may freeze over first.
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The only thing that you have presented that you stand for is a war against the Websters dictionary. Words actually have meanings.
 
poweRob said:
I can't believe you are asking if Thomas Jefferson was a social conservative. A man who in the early 1800's was having babies with black women and had edited the Bible by cutting out all the miracles in it to create the "Jefferson Bible".

In his day that made him a miscegenating heratic. About as far from socially conservative as one can get.
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There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it.
 
poweRob said:
The only thing that you have presented that you stand for is a war against the Websters dictionary. Words actually have meanings.
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Yadda, yadda, yadda.
 
A real liberal was Paul Wellstone.
Believing that the government has the ability to help people. That government should be efficient. That consumers should be protected. That discrimination is unacceptable. That we will avoid war at all costs and be a force of good in this world. A liberal helps other people. Is open minded and thoughtful. That all Americans deserve basic education, housing and health care.

And that love is a stronger force in this world than hate.
 
LesGovt said:
There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it.
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Well it's abundantly clear that your reasoning is wrong as I have proven. Thomas Jefferson was no where near a social conservative.
 
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LesGovt said:
I am not looking for a war here, but simply a civil discussion on what it means to be a conservative and to be a liberal.
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Too easy...

SNOPES

The videos are, as is typical of O’Keefe’s, work somewhat of a gish gallop, comprising a constellation of allegations and assertions that is virtually impossible to fact check without complete clips of the involved conversations. Nearly all the videos used stitched-together, out-of-context remarks with no indication of what occurred or what was discussed just before and after the included portions.

The framing and style of videos created by James O’Keefe is well known due to his 2009 “sting” in which he and accomplice Hannah Giles visited ACORN offices and pretended to be seeking advice on how to run an illegal business that included the use of underage girls in the sex trade. The resulting videos — which were edited to create the impression that O’Keefe and Giles had spoken to ACORN representatives while dressed as a pimp and prostitute — dealt that organization a mortal blow before reports publicizing the deception in O’Keefe’s videos came to light​
 
poweRob said:
Well it's abundantly clear that your reasoning is wrong as I have proven. Thomas Jefferson was no where near a social conservative.
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When did I say he was?
 
LesGovt said:
When did I say he was?
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Move those goal post. You claimed to wonder that he was. I put it to rest and then you practically doubled down and now you are running away from your own ponderings. :lol:
 
poweRob said:
Move those goal post. You claimed to wonder that he was. I put it to rest and then you practically doubled down and now you are running away from your own ponderings. :lol:
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Here are my statements concerning Jefferson. Where did I "claimed to wonder that he was?"

"A thought just came to mind, Was Thomas Jefferson a social conservative?"

"Yes he did have mistresses and slaves. He proposed this law for Virginia:
"Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or womashall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least."
It's wrong when a Christian is against polygamy or sodomy, or same-sex marriage or abortion. Really? We're just following our Founding Fathers' beliefs.
Can you cite the reason he wrote his Bible and why he omitted the miracles?"

"Here is the link to Jefferson's proposed laws: Amendment VIII: Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments
There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it."
 
LesGovt said:
Here are my statements concerning Jefferson. Where did I "claimed to wonder that he was?"

"A thought just came to mind, Was Thomas Jefferson a social conservative?"

"Yes he did have mistresses and slaves. He proposed this law for Virginia:
"Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or womashall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least."
It's wrong when a Christian is against polygamy or sodomy, or same-sex marriage or abortion. Really? We're just following our Founding Fathers' beliefs.
Can you cite the reason he wrote his Bible and why he omitted the miracles?"

"Here is the link to Jefferson's proposed laws: Amendment VIII: Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments
There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it."
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The bolded. Which was a stand alone post when I replied to it.

As far as being an "originialist". This is how silly Thomas Jefferson thought that notion was:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson​
 
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Mustachio said:
A real liberal was Paul Wellstone.
Believing that the government has the ability to help people. That government should be efficient. That consumers should be protected. That discrimination is unacceptable. That we will avoid war at all costs and be a force of good in this world. A liberal helps other people. Is open minded and thoughtful. That all Americans deserve basic education, housing and health care.

And that love is a stronger force in this world than hate.
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Thanks for a very respectful and meaningful response.
 
poweRob said:
The bolded. Which was a stand alone post when I replied to it.

As far as being an "originialist". This is how silly Thomas Jefferson thought that notion was:
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson​
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Wow! Asking a question is now a claim?
Was President Bill Clinton a communist? Does that question mean that I believe he is a communist?

As for Jefferson, he also said this: "on every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, & instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was past."

Source: Extract from Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
| Jefferson Quotes & Family Letters
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LesGovt said:
Wow! Asking a question is now a claim?
Was President Bill Clinton a communist? Does that question mean that I believe he is a communist?
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What a dodge. Let's review:

You said:

"A thought just came to mind, Was Thomas Jefferson a social conservative?"​

I put that silly notion to rest. To which you countered with:

There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it.​

Basically doubling down on your assertion with nothing to back it up. And now you are running away from it. Just like I said.

LesGovt said:
As for Jefferson, he also said this: "on every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, & instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was past.
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Which does not in any way counter a single thing about his other quote saying our government, constitution and laws need to change as time goes on to keep up. Pretty much destroying the notion of originalism.
 
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poweRob said:
What a dodge. Let's review:

You said:
"A thought just came to mind, Was Thomas Jefferson a social conservative?"​

I put that silly notion to rest. To which you countered with:
There was a reason, even if you cannot believe it.​

Basically doubling down on your assertion with nothing to back it up. And now you are running away from it. Just like I said.

Which does not in any way counter a single thing about his other quote saying our government, constitution and laws need to change as time goes on to keep up. Pretty much destroying the notion of originalism.
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I give up. Have a nice day.
 
LesGovt said:
[h=4]Below are Russell Kirk's "Ten Conservative Principles. While even many conservatives have not come to know Mr. Kirk, he was a mainstay in the conservative movement. He was a follower of Edmund Burke.

I am not looking for a war here, but simply a civil discussion on what it means to be a conservative and to be a liberal. Thanks.

My questions are simple. Please respond:

For conservatives:
A, If you are a conservative, do you agree with his ten principles?
B. If you disagree, to even one of them, which one(s) and why not?

For liberals:
A. Is there a person that you can point to who offers the principles of liberalism?
B, Who is that person
C. What are the principles

Ten Conservative Principles (1993)[/h]
  1. First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
  2. Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
  3. Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription.
  4. Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
  5. Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
  6. Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
  7. Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
  8. Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
  9. Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
  10. Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

http://www.kirkcenter.org/thought
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The political spectrum is defined by one basic issue. That issue is the Sovereignty of the individual person.

Conservative's believe in the Sovereignty of the individual as the principals of this country were founded on. That the government and so called authority if subservient to the people and that the individual is born with unalienable rights.

Liberals believe in the Sovereignty of the State and are in opposition of the principals this country was founded on. They believe that the People are subservient to the State and that the people only have the rights in which the State gives to them.

Republican and Democrats are both liberals. They both believe in the subservience of the people to the government, they only differ by what they an authoritarian government to force the people to do.....
 
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