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U.S. Interfered in scores of other countries' elections...

Ikari said:
It seems like Russia had a far greater influence.
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How so? Do you think Hillary would have won without Russia voting thousands of times for Candidate Trump?
 
Rexedgar said:
I've been around long enough to wonder just whose interests are being 'looked out' for.
We (government) don't seem to learn from past mistakes
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Now that's a fair, but separate, criticism.

But the point of us looking out for our national interests above all, still stands.

Though I do find it a bit ironic that the anti-Trump poster (me), is making a nationalistic self-interest argument to a Trump poster (OP) that's aligning herself with "global fairness"!

It's a strange world we live in during the Trump era ...
 
jimbo said:
How so? Do you think Hillary would have won without Russia voting thousands of times for Candidate Trump?
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How many Trump voters get their "news" from Facebook?
 
Thorgasm said:
How many Trump voters get their "news" from Facebook?
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How would I know? What does that have to do with my post?

How so? Do you think Hillary would have won without Russia voting thousands of times for Candidate Trump?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yes, I bet it looks foolish to people grasping at any straw to excuse it.

Either interfering is a big deal or it isn't. You can't shriek about how "but Obama" on one hand and then nonchalantly shrug off the Russians do it on the other. That is what is foolish.

Better yet, start deporting people who believe in idiotic claims like "Hilary tried to rig the election". The IQ of the voting base would go way up.
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I'm not "but Obama-ing" anything Inused that example because it was the latest one. I'd sure like to read an intelligent discussion post from you on this thread. Read others. Maybe it will help.
 
jimbo said:
The right didn't bring this up. The left did. As excuse #421 as to why their choice lost.
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Sorry, one of us is misunderstanding... What does this have to do with what I said? I was talking about bringing up the fact that Russian interference doesn't really matter seems to be coming primarily from the folks who's guy won. I feel like maybe both sides are missing the point.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Boo hoo. People have already tried this rationale for excusing the Russian interference for months now, and it still rings hollow.
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The side thats been ignoring Obama's actual attempts to interfere in Israel's elections while hyperventilliating over Russian conspiracy theories deserves to be called out for the hypocrites and hacks that they are
 
jimbo said:
How would I know? What does that have to do with my post?

How so? Do you think Hillary would have won without Russia voting thousands of times for Candidate Trump?
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Red Herring much?

Who said Russia voted?
 
Fenton said:
The side thats been ignoring Obama's actual attempts to interfere in Israel's elections while hyperventilliating over Russian conspiracy theories deserves to be called out for the hypocrites and hacks that they are
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It's funny you arrive at that conclusion. Obama gave money to a group for one thing and they used it for another. Of course, you will only believe the worst possible scenario for that. Are you more outraged about that than Israel spying on our country?
 
Chomsky said:
When Americans try to justify Putin interfering in the core of our democracy, by going attacking and criticizing our government for looking out for our interests, it quite honestly strikes me as un-American.

Our government is not a quid-pro-quo children's choir. It's number one priority is to look out for our safety and sovereignty. And sometimes that's a sloppy and dirty job, but it is what it is. The goal is to prevail, not to play fair!
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I'll play Devil's Advocate here...

...does Russia not have that same priority?
 
MaggieD said:
If you want secure U.S. Elections? Start with a voter I.D.
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You mean like this?

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1) Politics, especially international politics, is a dirty business.

2) Do countries such as the US, Russia, China, try to influence elections? Certainly, and with little penalty to pay (due to lack of payback leverage).

3) However, the US does possess numerous modes of leverage if nations meddle with America. To not avail ourselves of American leverage is self-defeating, increases our vulnerability, and invites additional meddling.

4) Geopolitics is not played on a level playing field and it's disingenuous to imagine it is. From the UN (permanent vetoes) to gunboat diplomacy, there are a few world powers and everyone else.

Trump constantly preaches "America first in military might and economic power!" and then he allows Russia to crap on us without even a word of warning to never do so again.

Trumps inconsistency here is inexplicable and I am at a loss to understand why the "America First" crowd completely ignores Trumps abject kowtowing to Moscow concerning election meddling.

But after observing Trump now for almost eight months, it is obvious [to me] that Trump ignores Russian election meddling because he believes such an acknowledgement somehow diminishes his electoral legitimacy.

Psychologically speaking , the Russians have Trump right where they want him. Quiet and docile about their 2016 election meddling which amounts to a free-pass to up the ante in 2018/2020.
 
I like how, when it comes to voter id, the integrity of our elections don't matter. But when it comes to russia, all of sudden Democrats are all about the integrity of our elections.
 
MaggieD said:
...latest being during the Obama Administration...



The United States is no stranger to election interference. We've done it extensively. Those of you who use an IPad know that copying/pasting is awkward at best. So I've only included one example here. It happens to be one done under former President Obama.

One need only Google "U.S. interference in foreign elections" to see those scores.

Here's the link to the one above. Obama admin. sent taxpayer money to campaign to oust Netanyahu - Washington Times

So those who are so worried and incensed that Russia may have done the same really ought to look much closer to home. Your faux outrage slip is showing.

Your thoughts?
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I thought about that with respect to the US behavior in the Cold War. And I must say, I have no real problem with interference by spreading information. Sure, it is aggravating to have the Russians show information the FSB has garnered by cloak and dagger. We have to live with that. Or, if the Foreign Minister of Germany leans into the US election by bad mouthing an American Candidate, as Steinmeier did, it is par for the course. We have to deal with it. We are big 'uns, after all.
 
Fledermaus said:
In war one's tactics should be as fair as clubbing baby seals....


(Bet that one sends some into a tizzy)
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I hear PETA heads exploding across the globe like bubble wrap. :fueltofir
 
Thorgasm said:
It's funny you arrive at that conclusion. Obama gave money to a group for one thing and they used it for another. Of course, you will only believe the worst possible scenario for that. Are you more outraged about that than Israel spying on our country?
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Wow, no one's that naive. No one.
 
joG said:
I thought about that with respect to the US behavior in the Cold War. And I must say, I have no real problem with interference by spreading information. Sure, it is aggravating to have the Russians show information the FSB has garnered by cloak and dagger. We have to live with that. Or, if the Foreign Minister of Germany leans into the US election by bad mouthing an American Candidate, as Steinmeier did, it is par for the course. We have to deal with it. We are big 'uns, after all.
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I agree with you.
 
Chomsky said:
When Americans try to justify Putin interfering in the core of our democracy, by going attacking and criticizing our government for looking out for our interests, it quite honestly strikes me as un-American.

Our government is not a quid-pro-quo children's choir. It's number one priority is to look out for our safety and sovereignty. And sometimes that's a sloppy and dirty job, but it is what it is. The goal is to prevail, not to play fair!
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I can understand that position and within certain limits could see why one might want a break put on interferences in the elections. On the other hand, I think it would indicate we were afraid to argue our positions and interests persuasively. Admittedly, our Presidents have done this poorly over the years since Bush I left office. This has many reasons, but it is rather sad how badly the Presidents did. It is also quite obvious that being able to or doing so is not a criterium the American electorate puts much store in.

But it is much worse to want to escape arguing our government's behavior to the American people by stopping outsiders from inserting information into our domestic discussions. It is very important that voters understand the implications of US policies from outsiders' perspective and why the foreign positions are wrong for the US.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
I like how, when it comes to voter id, the integrity of our elections don't matter. But when it comes to russia, all of sudden Democrats are all about the integrity of our elections.
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I like how voter fraud is built up to be in the millions when it actually isn't, but Russians colluding with a candidate is fake news.
 
Fenton said:
Wow, no one's that naive. No one.
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You're not going to believe this! People believe Trump. Believe me. It's true. They think he's honest. It's unbelievable. I can tell you that. A bunch of fools like the world has never seen.
 
Thorgasm said:
I like how voter fraud is built up to be in the millions when it actually isn't, but Russians colluding with a candidate is fake news.
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because those are different issues lol, but if you're going to argue for the integrity of our elections, you have to apply it everywhere.
 
MaggieD said:
...latest being during the Obama Administration...



The United States is no stranger to election interference. We've done it extensively. Those of you who use an IPad know that copying/pasting is awkward at best. So I've only included one example here. It happens to be one done under former President Obama.

One need only Google "U.S. interference in foreign elections" to see those scores.

Here's the link to the one above. Obama admin. sent taxpayer money to campaign to oust Netanyahu - Washington Times

So those who are so worried and incensed that Russia may have done the same really ought to look much closer to home. Your faux outrage slip is showing.

Your thoughts?
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Not me.

I've been pissed about our meddling for decades.
 
Ikari said:
We have and more. Things like Iran-Contra were all about supporting rebel factions as well. Hell, look at Bush, we run wars to overthrow regimes, and then have no plan on how to make a stable government in its place. We've done some pretty bad things, we do some pretty bad things too. It does need to stop, I don't know how much money we spend interfering with the elections and governments of other countries, but it's probably substantial. It needs to stop.

But does the fact that we mess with the elections of other countries mean we shouldn't be worried about other countries doing it to us? Hell no. That's a ridiculous and fairly stupid conclusion. It should be a slap in the face, the wake up call of "hey, we don't want it to happen to us, so we need to stop doing it to others", but we shouldn't be apathetic when it happens to us. Particularly coming from such a long time foe as Russia. And those connections/influence do need to be investigated and if there was something there, we need to punish those involved and find ways to isolate our system from outside influence. That's obvious.

Is this the new spin the Trumpetters are going to use? "Hey, it doesn't matter if Russia interfered and somehow got Trump into office, we do it to other countries all the time?" Not really a strong defense for the President.
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Just the latest whataboutism.
 
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