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Both Conservatives and Liberals Want Fairness

Winston

Advanced stage dementia patient pls support my run
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Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field.

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?


It's all about class Warfare and I don't see class Warfare ending anytime soon
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

This is probably the fairest way to look at the issue. There really are no villains, just competing ideas for how to make things better.

First, we need to define the word "deserve" in a moral sense. Do people "deserve" a basic share of resources just by existing in this society? Do people "deserve" only what they earn (children and the disabled aside)? Do some people "deserve" more than others as a reward for doing more for others?

Should doctors make more money than Walmart shelve stockers? How much more money? How much is "too much"? How do we incentivize people to contribute? How do we discourage behaviors with a societal cost like nicotine and hard drug addiction?

We need to ask these questions earnestly to try to find a common definition for the word "deserve".
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

Life is not, never has been, and never will be fair.

When the founders said, "all men are created equal," they meant equal rights, equal under the law.

The best thing we could do to get closer to that ideal would be to create a justice system that treats rich and poor, black and white, alike. So far, it's been over 200 years, and we haven't figured that one out.
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

First, there is the question of defining "fair society".

The 2nd issue I see is that even if you get a definition, I think your supposition only applies to the 99%. The 1% have other ideas, and they have the resources to make things happen.
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

One side needs to eat the other. That's what's happening now, you guys are fighting for what side will determine how you go forward as a society. The only alternative is for both sides to understand that they need to reach a consensus that respects each other's right to self determination, but let's be serious here, that's not going to happen any time soon. So, instead, one side will emerge as the "majority", the other will become irrelevant. That's how this ends, I think.
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

"Fair" is what you think it is. So it will never be "fair", just better.

Getting rid of illegal alien labor, for one.
Keep working to fix the "H" visa program so it doesn't act as an incentive to replace middle America to save a dollar.
Make taxes simpler for the middle class so they don't have to pay $200 to get their taxes done
General overhaul of "The Book of Favors" - the Tax Code.
Tighten up welfare eligibility.
Include funded relocation assistance to move to where the jobs are.
Kill all the lawyers... J/K ;)
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

It's all about class Warfare and I don't see class Warfare ending anytime soon

This is pretty much the issue. Most of what "centrist" Democrats and Republicans want is actively avoiding the real issues that are harming America, namely the concentration of wealth and power, control over the mass media and dissemination of information, and the overwhelming power over the political process.

We live in a nominal democracy, but the system is not designed for people who aren't part of the controlling classes to succeed. If you are a part of that class or manage to find your way into that class, then this is probably the greatest, freest society that's ever existed. If you aren't, then you are living in a society that seems very uninterested in your problems and addressing them. Both the voting public (not the politicians) who are conservative and liberal have it right in their own respective areas. It's objectively true that (white and non-white) people in middle America have a lot to complain about, and these people form the (alleged) victimized groups in the Republican ethos whose problems need to be solved. It's objectively true that minorities and traditionally oppressed groups who form the victimized groups in the Democratic ethos whose problems need to be solved.

The biggest issue our society faces isn't Democratic vs. Republican, in this respect, it's that all of these groups (and more) are marginalized and under normal conditions should be working together. But this is where control over the mass media is so useful: If you stoke illegitimately tensions between marginalized/oppressed groups, they will never work together. If you can work to convince white men in middle/southern America that all feminists/black/brown Americans, etc, are lazy people who're trying to steal their jobs and get them all fired for being sexists/racists/homophobes/transphobes --and then convince all feminists/brown/black people that all white people actively and interested in and engaging in oppressing their interests-- then you can be pretty sure there's no risk of them ever coming together to stop the ruling, privileged elites from continuing to pillage the country.

Again, that's not to say that any of these groups do not have legitimate grievances (they really do), but so long as these conversations are framed in a manner where there is no effort at mutual cooperation and understanding, then the ruling, privileged elites will remain so in perpetuity. Certainly the white working class voting for Trump has done nothing but actively harm their own interests, and at the same time damage the interests of brown, trans, gay, black, etc, Americans.
 
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Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?
Well for starters we should rephrase the opening premise. The hard working people are the growing poor and dwindling middle class, not Wall Street or the donor class. Corporations like Walmart for example pay full time workers so little that Walmart also assists them in getting onto govt assistance. We are not subsidizing the working poor, we are subsidizing Walmart's bottom line. Working class and poor folk subsidize big oil, big pharma, pro sports team owners, big agribusiness, Wall Street and on, and on.

The lazy bums are the predatory donor class/"job creator" class/Wall Street who we offer socialism when they sodomize the economic system; you know, that crowd. And yeah, the hard working people are footing the bill for those lazy predatory bums who bought up any semblance of democracy the US ever had. Just like they bought up the US media landscape once Clinton deregulated the FCC.

Why? Same reason they bought up our democracy; to prevent the people from reaching for a fair society which is diametrically opposed to the agenda of the ruling class; and to foment division amongst the masses. Revisit Bacon's Rebellion, this is nothing new on the North American continent. And look at how successful that has been; we buy into this mind**** “libs versus cons” shtick without questioning it at all. Race, they bait the hell outta that, still. Fear. Endless wars of profiteering. Them darkies are taking all your stuff. They bought up the media to control the narrative, "information", and would be independent journalism. Back in the 1980s there were 50 some odd companies on the US media landscape. Now the entire thing is in the hands of 6 multinational corporations who essentially all push the same perceptual reality, and the division. I see no difference at all between outlets like MSNBC, FOX, CNN, or any of them; all push the same perceptual reality. Meanwhile, now half of our fellow citizens drag home less than $30K per year - in THIS economic system. Social mobility in the US is a thing of the past unless one accepts unidirectional mobility downward

There is no answer to any of this working within the system, the system is doing exactly what it was designed to do; protect the status quo and the ruling political donor class at the expense of society at large. Vote all you like, stay in your chosen political camp and watch the societal wealth extraction continue unabated. The power structure knows full well it has lost all semblance of legitimacy and that the calm will most certainly erupt at some point. That's why police departments have been militarized, corporations have moved into the growing for profit prison business with a return to convict leasing and Americans have become THE most surveilled population the planet has ever seen.

What is to be done was your question? It's rather simple actually and merely requires the efforts of a critical mass of the population. It requires no arms, protests or acts of civil disobedience; no revolt at all in the usual sense. No letters to politicians. No blocking traffic. No marching. No torches. No targeting of minorities or out groups. No signs, bumper stickers, facebook posts, tweets, broken windows, fires, letters to the editor. It doesn’t even require voting.
Just stop participating in the big lie that is America. Every day when you get up decide that today I will not participate in or cooperate with the lie; I will call out the lie. The last thing any power structure ever wanted to confront was a coherent, thinking human being, much less a collection of them. That’s why the system needed to control the media machine – to control the perceptual reality of the subjects. For an example, imagine the perturbation to the system the people could trigger if say a third or a half of the population decided not to spend any money at all for a day. Or a week. Or maybe a month. Imagine the perturbation to the system the people could trigger if say a third or a half of the population decided not to spend any money at all and not to go to work or send their kids to school for a day. Or a week. Or maybe a month.

A little organization and preparation in noncooperation and nonparticipation would bring things readily apparent to the system who has real power, all they have is authority which by deffinition is always on shaky ground.
 
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This is pretty much the issue. Most of what "centrist" Democrats and Republicans want is actively avoiding the real issues that are harming America, namely the concentration of wealth and power, control over the mass media and dissemination of information, and the overwhelming power over the political process.

We live in a nominal democracy, but the system is not designed for people who aren't part of the controlling classes to succeed. If you are a part of that class or manage to find your way into that class, then this is probably the greatest, freest society that's ever existed. If you aren't, then you are living in a society that seems very uninterested in your problems and addressing them. Both the voting public (not the politicians) who are conservative and liberal have it right in their own respective areas. It's objectively true that (white and non-white) people in middle America have a lot to complain about, and these people form the (alleged) victimized groups in the Republican ethos whose problems need to be solved. It's objectively true that minorities and traditionally oppressed groups who form the victimized groups in the Democratic ethos whose problems need to be solved.

The biggest issue our society faces isn't Democratic vs. Republican, in this respect, it's that all of these groups (and more) are marginalized and under normal conditions should be working together. But this is where control over the mass media is so useful: If you stoke illegitimately tensions between marginalized/oppressed groups, they will never work together. If you can work to convince white men in middle/southern America that all feminists/black/brown Americans, etc, are lazy people who're trying to steal their jobs and get them all fired for being sexists/racists/homophobes/transphobes --and then convince all feminists/brown/black people that all white people actively and interested in and engaging in oppressing their interests-- then you can be pretty sure there's no risk of them ever coming together to stop the ruling, privileged elites from continuing to pillage the country.

Again, that's not to say that any of these groups do not have legitimate grievances (they really do), but so long as these conversations are framed in a manner where there is no effort at mutual cooperation and understanding, then the ruling, privileged elites will remain so in perpetuity. Certainly the white working class voting for Trump has done nothing but actively harm their own interests, and at the same time damage the interests of brown, trans, gay, black, etc, Americans.

Thanks. That's pretty close to what I was trying to pack into one sentence in my other post.:bravo:
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

First step is looking for commonality. Second step, listen.
Instead, it seems it is more lucrative to emphasize what divides us, so that we are yelling and screaming at each other.
 
Overall both conservatives and liberals are concerned that society is unfair.

There is a running talking point among conservatives that, the hard working people are footing the bill for the lazy bums. This is a desire to address a fair playing field. Why do I pay more in taxes and receive the same benefits as someone who pays less?

Liberals want equal opportunity for people who happened to be born on an unlucky day. And they support what measures to address this unfairness... such as free college or UHC.

Both want a fair society, how do we get there?

I think the real question you need to start with is who would be more motivated to lie to you? What exactly does a liberal like Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, or President Obama stand to gain from their own strategies? All of them are fairly wealthy people. Even Bernie Sanders is a millionaire. So why on earth would he advocate for higher taxes on the wealthy if he didn't have confidence that it would work out better overall in the long run? What does he have to gain directly from this? He's already got good health insurance for himself. He clearly doesn't need welfare, or free college tuition. He's not benefiting from affirmative action, he's not a black life. He's a man, he doesn't really need feminism....

Conversely, someone like Donald Trump, Mitt Romney, the Bushes, and virtually every Republican in Congress is advocating for a massive tax cut and a reduction in regulations on businesses. What they have to directly gain from that is quite obvious. Tax cuts on millionaires and billionaries will obviously put a boat load of money directly into their pockets whether they turn around and actually create any jobs with that money or not. Reducing regulations and torpedoing Labor Unions makes running their businesses much easier and likely more profitable.

The old saying in detective work goes "to whom benefits." If you want to know who is guilty of a crime look to see who would benefit the most from that crime. Democrats economic plans only work out well for themselves, if they actually work out well for everyone. They're relying on every day average Americans to use these benefits to benefit the country as a whole. Republicans economic plans benefit themselves even if they don't work for anybody else.

Who are you going to trust? A millionaire that says here take a bunch of my money, do what you want with it, and I have faith that you'll do the right thing that will ultimately come back to benefit me, or a millionaire who says give me a whole bunch more money than I already have, and trust me, I'll trickle some of it down to you another way later? Democrats are putting their trust in you, whereas Republicans want you to trust them.

Business people naturally have a tendency to view themselves as being more important than they really are. They think that their wealth makes them better, smarter, more productive Americans than they really are, and so they have a natural bias to assume that everything they have is deserved, and that handicapping them in anyway hurts the country. Successful people always want try and give themselves more credit than they deserve for their success. In reality nobody could be successful in society with a lot of help from others. Some where along the line the government or their parents, or somebody else gave them opportunites. They may have taken full advantage of them, but the definately needed help.

In reality, they are taking advantage of a system, they are not responsible for that system, they didn't create it in the first place they're just benefiting off of it. The people who benefit the most from a system should be the ones who contribute the most to maintain that system. If some people benefit exponentially more from a system, it only makes sense for them to pay exponentially more to maintain that system. That is what's fair, and if you understand that reality first and foremost the answer to your question quickly becomes obvious.
 
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This is pretty much the issue. Most of what "centrist" Democrats and Republicans want is actively avoiding the real issues that are harming America,

.......

all of these groups (and more) are marginalized and under normal conditions should be working together. But this is where control over the mass media is so useful: If you stoke illegitimately tensions between marginalized/oppressed groups, they will never work together.

Do you not realize that your characterization of "centrist" Democrats as if they are somehow part of the problem is in and of itself a result of Right-wing media stoking illegitimate tensions within the ranks of the left? The anger towards "centrist" Democrats like Hillary Clinton who are very clearly and very obviously more on your side than Trump or any Republican is the primary reason why Trump is in the white house, Obamacare is in danger of repeal, Tax cuts for the wealthy are almost certainly on the way, the Courts are now being stacked against minorities, labor, and women, and the Military Industrial complex is licking it's chops at the potential for war with North Korea, Iran, and escalation with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Everything that progressives and the "non-centrist" left(whatever that is) wanted to be accomplished was on a path to being accomplished if Democrats continued to hold the white house. It still might have taken some time as change always does, but we were on the right path until pointless hatred over an imperfect Liberal gave way to a mini Dark Age of Trumpism in which Klan members and Nazis have been given new life.

The exact problem you lament is caused by liberals bickering over trivial nuances when they should have united to destroy the true evil. Instead of blaming the mass media for dividing marginalized groups take a closer look at which groups broke rank, and tell them to stop letting themselve be manipulated.
 
It comes down to equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. Conservatives want equality of opportunity, giving people reasonably equal chances to make something of themselves and to accept the consequences of failing to do so. Liberals want equality of outcome. They don't care what people earn, how hard people work, they want everyone to wind up in the same boat.

Only one makes any sense. Guess which one?
 
Do you not realize that your characterization of "centrist" Democrats as if they are somehow part of the problem is in and of itself a result of Right-wing media stoking illegitimate tensions within the ranks of the left? The anger towards "centrist" Democrats like Hillary Clinton who are very clearly and very obviously more on your side than Trump or any Republican is the primary reason why Trump is in the white house, Obamacare is in danger of repeal, Tax cuts for the wealthy are almost certainly on the way, the Courts are now being stacked against minorities, labor, and women, and the Military Industrial complex is licking it's chops at the potential for war with North Korea, Iran, and escalation with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Centrist Democrats are part of the problem --a pretty big part of the problem, actually. As much as centrist Democrats like to claim that they are the lone stalwarts defending the nation from the extreme Right and the extreme Left, they pretty much only "defend" the nation from the Left-of-center ideas.

Centrist Democrats wanted them as a "top priority" before Trump won. Centrist Democrats voted for the Iraq War, got us involved in Syria and Libya, and current centrist Democrats have lavished praise on Trump for his current military campaigns. Centrist Democrats continue to put up weaker and weaker judicial nominees like Merrick Garland who supports corporate campaign contributions and a lot of other awful garbage (A pretty long falling from the days of nominating Ruth Bader Ginsburg), but that's not even the worst part of your claim.

The worst part of your claim is that centrist Democrats increased private prison populations, Centrist Democrats criminalized black life and perpetuated stop-and-frisk (Bloomberg, another great centrist Democrat, was more than happy to pick up where Guiliani left off), who through labor down the drain with NAFTA and other anti-union. And then they have the audacity to turn around in 2015 and look at us Leftists and say, "Look at all you assholes, you're all purists who will do nothing but destroy women and brown people."

So yeah, I vote for them over Republicans, but spare me this NYT/WaPo claptrap about how f***ing awesome centrist Democrats are and how they're protecting everyone. They aren't.
 
Centrist Democrats are part of the problem --a pretty big part of the problem, actually. As much as centrist Democrats like to claim that they are the lone stalwarts defending the nation from the extreme Right and the extreme Left, they pretty much only "defend" the nation from the Left-of-center ideas.

Centrist Democrats wanted them as a "top priority" before Trump won. Centrist Democrats voted for the Iraq War, got us involved in Syria and Libya, and current centrist Democrats have lavished praise on Trump for his current military campaigns. Centrist Democrats continue to put up weaker and weaker judicial nominees like Merrick Garland who supports corporate campaign contributions and a lot of other awful garbage (A pretty long falling from the days of nominating Ruth Bader Ginsburg), but that's not even the worst part of your claim.

The worst part of your claim is that centrist Democrats increased private prison populations, Centrist Democrats criminalized black life and perpetuated stop-and-frisk (Bloomberg, another great centrist Democrat, was more than happy to pick up where Guiliani left off), who through labor down the drain with NAFTA and other anti-union. And then they have the audacity to turn around in 2015 and look at us Leftists and say, "Look at all you assholes, you're all purists who will do nothing but destroy women and brown people."

So yeah, I vote for them over Republicans, but spare me this NYT/WaPo claptrap about how f***ing awesome centrist Democrats are and how they're protecting everyone. They aren't.

And let's not forget, centrist Democrats indirectly gave us Trump.
 
Centrist Democrats are part of the problem --a pretty big part of the problem, actually.

It doesn't matter whether you love Centrist Democrats or not. You're not winning anything without them, so rather than continuing to bash and divide you're going to have to do a better job of persuading. Don't go around lamenting divisiveness while being divisive.
 
And let's not forget, centrist Democrats indirectly gave us Trump.

Ummmm... No. Anybody who didn't vote Hillary in the general gave us Trump, and I can assure you every centrist Democrat voted Hillary.
 
Ummmm... No. Anybody who didn't vote Hillary in the general gave us Trump, and I can assure you every centrist Democrat voted Hillary.

And yet, Hilary had the nomination. So, was it the fringr left that gave us Trump by not voting for Hilary, or what it the Central Left that gave us Trump by selecting an awful candidate?

If the Dems had a better candidate, we would not have Trump.
 
And yet, Hilary had the nomination. So, was it the fringr left that gave us Trump by not voting for Hilary, or what it the Central Left that gave us Trump by selecting an awful candidate?

If the Dems had a better candidate, we would not have Trump.

Does a better Dem candidate even exist?
 
Much like centrist Republicans gave us Obama.

Palin's ineptitude with the media gave us Obama. The media's naked, shameless support made us keep him.
 
It doesn't matter whether you love Centrist Democrats or not. You're not winning anything without them, so rather than continuing to bash and divide you're going to have to do a better job of persuading. Don't go around lamenting divisiveness while being divisive.

Again, this is an unbelievable claim. Two years ago, one side offered their vision of the Democratic party going forward. Another side offered to show them to the door. And this pattern has continued to this day. The idea that Leftists are the ones who can't compromise, when Sanders has continued to help the Democratic part and remain engaged with Democratic candidates through Our Revolution which has helped and is helping hundreds of Democratic candidates across the country, and when centrists (like Clinton's recent book) continue to demean, bemoan, and attack Leftists and keep them out of major positions of power, all while centrists Democrats continue to control the reins, pick the shots, and who the media continues to treat as the serious wing of the party.

And not to mention, more Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2008 than Clinton supporters voted for Barrack Obama in 2016. Well, that pretty much says it all about who's better at compromising, doesn't it? So please, read me another lesson in how the people who don't have power within the party have a moral obligation to bridge the divide.
 
And yet, Hilary had the nomination. So, was it the fringr left that gave us Trump by not voting for Hilary,

Yes.

or what it the Central Left that gave us Trump by selecting an awful candidate?
Hillary won the majority of votes despite being torpedoed by a bull**** hack job witch hunt investigation. She lost because a bunch of my way or the highway crybabies decided to make a protest vote and or stay home.

If the Dems had a better candidate, we would not have Trump.

You can sit there and claim Bernie would have won all you want, there is absolutely no way to know whether he actually would have or not. But if he would have won it would have been because 100% of Clinton backers would have done what was in America's best interest and voted for him just like they did Obama.

We need politicians that are willing to work together to do what is in the best overall interest of America even if they aren't madly in love with every bill that gets passed. If the far left is going to have a my way or the highway attitude about things then they're not that much better than Republicans.
 
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