• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Russian interference in our election

MaggieD said:
And there is proof of this?
Click to expand...

There is extensive literature on the subject. Most Americans with a casual interest focus on the 'hacking' aspect (Fancy Bear/Cozy Bear), but the hacking facet was only one aspect of many different Russian influence-approaches.

A good place to begin is the declassified US intelligence assessment: Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections

It was my personal good fortune to be visiting both Ukraine and Russia during 2013/2014/2015. This enabled me to witness firsthand the Kremlin's differing foreign and homeland approaches regarding information operations (IO).

Moscow has interfered with elections in Georgia (2016), Moldova (2016), Macedonia (2016), France (2017), and is currently trying to influence the September 24 federal elections in Germany. Putin would very much like to wave goodbye to Angela Merkel.
 
MaggieD said:
I just wish someone would give me concrete examples... quotes... findings...
Click to expand...

I've basically been ignoring the whole thing. Mueller will get to the bottom of it. I'll just wait on his report. Democrats are going to say the whole world was destroyed by Russia's election interference. Republicans will say nothing happened. Basically all political propaganda on both sides. If there is something to this, Mueller will find out. One way or the other. I'll wait.
 
MaggieD said:
And there is proof of this?
Click to expand...

No, there is no proof of this. William Binney, Julian Assange, Thomas Drake, Diane Roark and a handful of other whistleblowers have been pointing this out since it started, but the mainstream media is more interested in scandal and bull**** than it is in discovering or publishing the truth.
 
MaggieD said:
I just wish someone would give me concrete examples... quotes... findings...
Click to expand...

. . . . which have been elusive to come by since the very first of the Russia! Russia! Russia! mania.

Some say the Russians hacked the DNC and gave what they got to Assange, who maintains and has always maintained that this isn't the source of the materials he posted.

New Research Shows Guccifer 2.0 Files Were Copied Locally ...
403 Forbidden...
Jul 10, 2017 - A large amount of data would then be copied to this same USB drive. ... indicates that the data was downloaded locally, possibly using the local DNC network. ... Russian hacking is just a Joominati lie, please call it what it is.

New report claims DNC hack was an inside job — not Russia | New ...
nypost.com/2017/08/15/new-report-claims-dnc-hack-was-an-inside-job-not-russia/
Aug 15, 2017 - New report claims DNC hack was an inside job — not Russia ... They claim the data was transferred at a rate that was far too fast for an internet ...
Click to expand...

So it may very well be true that it wasn't the Russians, but rather an inside job.
 
MaggieD said:
Sincerely, I don't understand how Russia could have interfered in our election. What is the theory? How did they interfere? And what agency first said they have and wanted to investigate the how's?
Click to expand...

The Russians exposed the corruption in the DNC and how Hillary cheated to win the primaries. The real damage was done by our FBI and Comey who continually fed the media. If anyone rigged the election it was the FBI and Comey and the right before election shout out that Hillary was again under investigation. I don't think the American people put much stock in what Russia claimed but they did hear Comey.
 
What some GOP people and most Trumpers on this board fail to appreciate is that (1) Putin is not perpetual. (2) Politics is fluid. (3) Russia is no friend/ally of the US.

They seem to assume that the Kremlin will always either covertly and/or overtly support the GOP candidate. In real life however, geopolitics is never so static and simplistic.

Foreign policy circumstances are unpredictable and relationships change depending on national benefit. The Kremlin/Wikileaks alliance can execute a 180° turnabout in a heartbeat.

Since there has been no appreciable downside to Russian election meddling, it is a certainty that the Kremlin will ramp up their IO efforts considerably for the 2020 US election.
 
volsrock said:
yup,,,,after 10 plus mths thats all u have to come back with
Click to expand...

Just look at the California vote to realize what is happening. In 5 national contests in which Nixon ran
California voted Republican every time. Now with the influx of Mexicans & Asians Trump lost California
by 4,000,000 votes, it's a real sea change because of illegal alien squatters. ICE picks up illegals who
carry voter registration cards all the time. Face the facts.

There is only one foreign nation using a political party to interfere in all US Elections. Mexico and the Democrats.
That Russian interference is pure nonsense
 
slick said:
There is only one foreign nation using a political party to interfere in all US Elections. Mexico and the Democrats.
That Russian interference is pure nonsense
Click to expand...

This is funny. So, how many illegal aliens voted? Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million votes.

If there were millions of illegal alien votes it would be pretty easy to prove such a massive conspiracy involving millions of people. And this has been investigated. Nothing was found. It's a conspiracy theory.

Now about the Russian investigation. We have the head of Trump's campaign, Trump's son in a room with Russians with Putin connections. The meeting was about dirt on Hilary Clinton or basically helping Trump win the election. But somehow in your warped thinking, investigating this is "nonsense"?

Your statements are irrational. They're driven purely by emotion not logic.
 
eohrnberger said:
. . . . which have been elusive to come by since the very first of the Russia! Russia! Russia! mania.

Some say the Russians hacked the DNC and gave what they got to Assange, who maintains and has always maintained that this isn't the source of the materials he posted.



So it may very well be true that it wasn't the Russians, but rather an inside job.
Click to expand...
No ****-- "it may very well be that it's not the Russians?". You believe we didn't go to the moon, birther gate, and Oswald didn't kill JFK. Oh, and Bush blew up the World Trade Centers.

This kind of crap has to be checked like a hockey player. If we don't, more people will believe it.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
This is funny. So, how many illegal aliens voted? Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million votes.

If there were millions of illegal alien votes it would be pretty easy to prove such a massive conspiracy involving millions of people. And this has been investigated. Nothing was found. It's a conspiracy theory.

Now about the Russian investigation. We have the head of Trump's campaign, Trump's son in a room with Russians with Putin connections. The meeting was about dirt on Hilary Clinton or basically helping Trump win the election. But somehow in your warped thinking, investigating this is "nonsense"?

Your statements are irrational. They're driven purely by emotion not logic.
Click to expand...

Delve if you are able into the inner cavities of the mind where realizations occurs & try to comprehend the following:
Try comprehending before commenting to avoid silly bombastic flourishes.

1) Clinton won the popular vote:
Let's go to California where Clinton got all the votes she needs for a plurality:
Clinton 8,753,798
Trump 4,483,810

So Clinton won the plurality one state California by 4,270,000 votes
While Trump won the plurality in the other 49 states by over 1,500,000 votes

'Consider California now has 40,000,000 in 1968 19,000,000 it's population has doubled
& now burdened with 62% minorities. California in the election of 1984 before the results of the Immigration
Act of 1965 began to bare fruit for the Democrats

Election of 1984
Republican 5,467,009
Democrat 3,922,519
Republican won by 1,500,000 votes

Election of 2016
Republican 4,483,810
Democrat 8,753,788
Democrats won by 4,300,00 votes"

Do some critical thinking about how this ever could happen

'The Democrats received 5 million more votes in in 2016 than they did in 1984
while the Republicans received less than they did 30 years ago, I wonder
why. In bizarroville California where people with driver liscenses become voter
eligible could it be that of those 5 million more DEM votes over 1/3 may be from the
huge waves of illegals since 1980 who are sheltered in this odd sanctuary state.
Lots of reasons to question the rolls in California starting with their laws that automatically register
EVERYONE, including illegal immigrants, when they are issued a drivers license.''

Finally:
' Earlier this year, State Senate President Pro Tem Kevin De León told the committee that “half his family
is in the country illegally” and that his relatives regularly commit identity theft in order to work in the U.S.

How is this guy allowed to be a politician when he just admitted to aiding and abetting known criminals
who commit ID fraud as well as being in the country illegally. Shouldn't he be charged? Oh that's right
he's a dem in kali so it's ok to break the law as long as your not white or American.

And he is still walking free in the US? He ought to be picked up and questioned! With stolen IDs, his relatives
can vote multiple times! No wonder CaliMexico is not co-operating with the Voter's Fraud Commission.

What a country we live in, where elected officials are not condemned for declaing unashamedly that
their family is involved in clearly illegal activities. So what's he saying---"Let's make these illegal activities legal"???'
 
Last edited:
slick said:
Delve if you are able into the inner cavities of the mind where realizations occurs & try to comprehend the following:
Try comprehending before commenting to avoid silly bombastic flourishes.

1) Clinton won the popular vote:
Let's go to California where Clinton got all the votes she needs for a plurality:
Clinton 8,753,798
Trump 4,483,810

So Clinton won the plurality one state California by 4,270,000 votes
While Trump won the plurality in the other 49 states by over 1,500,000 votes

'Consider California now has 40,000,000 in 1968 19,000,000 it's population has doubled
& now burdened with 62% minorities. California in the election of 1984 before the results of the Immigration
Act of 1965 began to bare fruit for the Democrats

Election of 1984
Republican 5,467,009
Democrat 3,922,519
Republican won by 1,500,000 votes

Election of 2016
Republican 4,483,810
Democrat 8,753,788
Democrats won by 4,300,00 votes"

Do some critical thinking about how this ever could happen

'The Democrats received 5 million more votes in in 2016 than they did in 1984
while the Republicans received less than they did 30 years ago, I wonder
why. In bizarroville California where people with driver liscenses become voter
eligible could it be that of those 5 million more DEM votes over 1/3 may be from the
huge waves of illegals since 1980 who are sheltered in this odd sanctuary state.
Lots of reasons to question the rolls in California starting with their laws that automatically register
EVERYONE, including illegal immigrants, when they are issued a drivers license.''

Finally:
' Earlier this year, State Senate President Pro Tem Kevin De León told the committee that “half his family
is in the country illegally” and that his relatives regularly commit identity theft in order to work in the U.S.

How is this guy allowed to be a politician when he just admitted to aiding and abetting known criminals
who commit ID fraud as well as being in the country illegally. Shouldn't he be charged? Oh that's right
he's a dem in kali so it's ok to break the law as long as your not white or American.

And he is still walking free in the US? He ought to be picked up and questioned! With stolen IDs, his relatives
can vote multiple times! No wonder CaliMexico is not co-operating with the Voter's Fraud Commission.

What a country we live in, where elected officials are not condemned for declaing unashamedly that
their family is involved in clearly illegal activities. So what's he saying---"Let's make these illegal activities legal"???'
Click to expand...

California is as liberal as Tennessee is conservative. That's all.

Trump won West Virginia by more than 40% and Tennessee by about 27%. Hillary won California by 29%, Massachusetts by 27%, and New York by 20%.

California is the most liberal state with the highest population. There is nothing unusual about the numbers. And West Virginia voted for Bill Clinton in '92. So it's not unusual for states to shift their voting.

Reagan won California because he was governor of California, remember?

The numbers you see in California are exactly what you would expect from the most liberal and most populated state.

Conspiracy theory debunked with common sense.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
California is as liberal as Tennessee is conservative. That's all.

Trump won West Virginia by more than 40% and Tennessee by about 27%. Hillary won California by 29%, Massachusetts by 27%, and New York by 20%.

California is the most liberal state with the highest population. There is nothing unusual about the numbers. And West Virginia voted for Bill Clinton in '92. So it's not unusual for states to shift their voting.

Reagan won California because he was governor of California, remember?

The numbers you see in California are exactly what you would expect from the most liberal and most populated state.

Conspiracy theory debunked with common sense.
Click to expand...

You are way off.
Gov Jerry Brown gets a 10 on the liberal progressive scale, Sen K Harrisgets a 10 on the liberal progressive scale & Sen D. Feinstein an 8

While:
Gov Bill Haslam gets a 6 on the conservative scale, Sen B. Corker gets a 7 on the conservative scale scale & Sen L Alexander an 6

Tennessee's top politicians are RINO's, California's top politicians generally speaking are doctrinaire socialists & globalists to the core.

I can state that with no fear of responsible contradiction.
 
slick said:
Tennessee's top politicians are RINO's, California's top politicians generally speaking are doctrinaire socialists & globalists to the core.

I can state that with no fear of responsible contradiction.
Click to expand...

My point was that Hillary won California (29%) by far less than Trump won West Virginia (40%). But no one is claiming Trump cheated in West Virginia. What's so surprising about the most liberal state in the country voting for Hillary by 29%?

P.S. Free market conservatives are globalists. Socialists are not globalists. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA but Republicans proposed it and couldn't get it through because of Democrats. Bill Clinton screwed over Dems when he signed it. Bill Clinton worked with Republicans on three strikes and welfare reform too. He also deregulated banking.

Globalism is very much Republican. Trump has split off poor Republicans from the Republican herd.
 
MaggieD said:
Sincerely, I don't understand how Russia could have interfered in our election. What is the theory? How did they interfere? And what agency first said they have and wanted to investigate the how's?
Click to expand...

So far What I have seen is cozy bear or fluffy bear or some crap which is a malware available to pretty much anyone in the world as the main proof which is laughable, why would some of the best hackers in the world need an outdated crappy malware to phish the dnc when they could use other means or atleast get a modern version of the malware.

The other claim is true but bears little on anything, rt said mean things about hillary, therefore russian interference. They for the bulk of their evidence concluded russian media interfered with our election, but if we hold the same standards we need to charge britain france germany canada etc for interfering with out election, as they all used their media to say one thing or another about a candidate.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Basically, they interfered via 'hybrid warfare' tactics (i.e. the Gerasimov Doctrine/Non-Linear Warfare). This includes but is not limited to distributing official disinformation, media propaganda, state sponsored trolling, using various tactics to weaken democracy/journalism, hacking candidates/parties, favoring/promoting one candidate over others, blackmail if possible, scandal, etc. They also probed our digital voting systems and state voter registration data.

Moscow's actions in this regard were rather tame in the US. Their hybrid warfare actions are many orders of magnitude greater in an arena like ... Ukraine. There, subtlety is not even bothered with. The attacks are 'in your face' and vicious.

The main problem post-election 2016 is that Moscow did not pay a high enough price to dissuade them from upping the ante in 2018 and 2020. No disincentives will yield greater interference.
Click to expand...

You do realize there is note actually a Gerasimov Doctrine right, but rather he was responsible for the aknowledgement of that type of warfare, the actual doctrine was his predecessors in the soviet union.

Also to note the united states follows that doctrine in absolute as well, so that whole argument falls flat. Oh and there is that pesky wolfowitz doctrine america has followed since bush senior, which paints russia as enemy number one no matter what to ensure they could never again compete with america or europe economically or militarily.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Did America like it? ;)
Click to expand...

She loved it, ain't been touched like that since hitler and the third reich, needed to feel appreciated you know.
 
beerftw said:
So far What I have seen is cozy bear or fluffy bear or some crap which is a malware available to pretty much anyone in the world as the main proof which is laughable, why would some of the best hackers in the world need an outdated crappy malware to phish the dnc when they could use other means or atleast get a modern version of the malware.

The other claim is true but bears little on anything, rt said mean things about hillary, therefore russian interference. They for the bulk of their evidence concluded russian media interfered with our election, but if we hold the same standards we need to charge britain france germany canada etc for interfering with out election, as they all used their media to say one thing or another about a candidate.
Click to expand...

Russia is always working to interfere with elections. There's no doubt Russia tried to interfere using hacking, fake news and fake comments on the Internet. They also tried to influence and control Trump.

As a responsible country we absolutely have to investigate such a thing. As a voter you're being incredibly irresponsible regarding the safety of your country by dismissing this.

All I have ever claimed is that these issues of collusion, money laundering and secret loans should be thoroughly investigated.

And unlike conservatives I won't complain if they find nothing. Hillary was exonerated but that's not enough for the "Lock her up" crowd. The same people won't want to lock Trump up if he's caught money laundering.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
Russia is always working to interfere with elections. There's no doubt Russia tried to interfere using hacking, fake news and fake comments on the Internet. They also tried to influence and control Trump.

As a responsible country we absolutely have to investigate such a thing. As a voter you're being incredibly irresponsible regarding the safety of your country by dismissing this.

All I have ever claimed is that these issues of collusion, money laundering and secret loans should be thoroughly investigated.

And unlike conservatives I won't complain if they find nothing. Hillary was exonerated but that's not enough for the "Lock her up" crowd. The same people won't want to lock Trump up if he's caught money laundering.
Click to expand...

Our own govt used fake news, as did our own allies, like I said you would have to prosecute every countries media under that standard, instead it is singalling out one country.

As far as hacking this has been challenged to death, the evidence is from an independant company hired by the dnc because they refused to allow the fbi to search, and use of malware anyone can download which does not seem govt level at all, and it was ukrainian malware not russian malware.

Hillary actually had evidence against her and was exonerated, in this case they have no evidence of a crime and are searching for a crime to charge him with.
 
beerftw said:
You do realize there is note actually a Gerasimov Doctrine right, but rather he was responsible for the aknowledgement of that type of warfare, the actual doctrine was his predecessors in the soviet union.

Also to note the united states follows that doctrine in absolute as well, so that whole argument falls flat. Oh and there is that pesky wolfowitz doctrine america has followed since bush senior, which paints russia as enemy number one no matter what to ensure they could never again compete with america or europe economically or militarily.
Click to expand...
Maggie asked a quite complex question. I answered her inquiry with as much brevity as possible. Don't like the answer? Tuff nutz.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Maggie asked a quite complex question. I answered her inquiry with as much brevity as possible. Don't like the answer? Tuff nutz.
Click to expand...

So no counter that the gerasimov doctrine is not a doctrine but an observation of tactics from previous soviet tacticions or the fact the united states uses that exact tactic and has an actual doctrine that labels russia as enemy number one no matter what they do?
 
beerftw said:
You do realize there is note actually a Gerasimov Doctrine right, but rather he was responsible for the aknowledgement of that type of warfare, the actual doctrine was his predecessors in the soviet union.

Also to note the united states follows that doctrine in absolute as well, so that whole argument falls flat. Oh and there is that pesky wolfowitz doctrine america has followed since bush senior, which paints russia as enemy number one no matter what to ensure they could never again compete with america or europe economically or militarily.
Click to expand...
You have good info bout your conclusion is wrong

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom