How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrative.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

If you have a better solution to racism I am all ears. I'll be on board for whatever works.

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There are a million ways in which we as society and individuals address racism. Your suggestion that race be ignored is stupid at best and racist in result.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Beaudreaux said:

CK, because he was using the X hat to represent the black race against the USA as a whole by kneeling during the national anthem, which made it racial. It isn't a simple item that can be devolved into a one line sound bite response, or even a one line dismissal by you or others.

I'm gonna climb out of this rabbit hole now.

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You think his kneeling was for a race war against the US?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

ecofarm said:

There are a million ways in which we as society and individuals address racism. Your suggestion that race be ignored is stupid at best and racist in result.

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People have brought attention to many ways I and you can help our communities and individual americas who have diverse issues and challenges, by both changing our views, biases and invoking actions. None of those people have ever had a need to bring up race as it doesn't exist but by yoru distinction.

So when you're ready to stop addressing your made up categories and start solving issues real people have we welcome you at the table, but race alone as just an arbitrary category will not be something worthy of a discussion. It is a meaningless archaic category. Even in medicine where it might once hd some relevance has been replaced with accurate genetic testing. It’s 2017, if you want a category of identity pick something meaningful!

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

ecofarm said:

You think his kneeling was for a race war against the US?

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Geeze-Louis Eco, that isn't even close to what I said. So, no.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

People have brought attention to many ways I and you can help our communities and individual americas who have diverse issues and challenges, by both changing our views, biases and invoking actions. None of those people have ever had a need to bring up race as it doesn't exist but by yoru distinction.

So when you're ready to stop addressing your made up categories and start solving issues real people have we welcome you at the table, but race alone as just an arbitrary category will not be something worthy of a discussion. It is a meaningless archaic category. Even in medicine where it might once hd some relevance has been replaced with accurate genetic testing. It’s 2017, if you want a category of identity pick something meaningful!

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You do understand that "I don't see race" is a cliche associated with majority white (males most often)? Most recently popularized by Steven Colbert on the Colbert Report in making fun of Bill O'Reily, a right wing nutjob.

Just so you're clear, by denying it, you ensure you can't take action based on it. Which is in a way, denying racism, which could arguably be considered implicit racism.

"None of those people have ever had a need to bring up race as it doesn't exist but by yoru distinction."

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In person you do not need to bring it up...why would you? You realize this is an internal thing right? You recognize it's an issue "in your mind". You use your judgement on whether or not it's a factor in some decision you make. That's it, how can you oppose that as anything but common sense?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

You do understand that "I don't see race" is a cliche associated with majority white (males most often)? Most recently popularized by Steven Colbert on the Colbert Report in making fun of Bill O'Reily, a right wing nutjob.

Just so you're clear, by denying it, you ensure you can't take action based on it. Which is in a way, denying racism, which could arguably be considered implicit racism.

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I see no reason that isn't just racists creating a narrative where the truth is twisted to support a falsity. I would not say I don’t "see" some type of vague thing I could label race. I see ethic features in lots of people. So what? How is it a meaningful indicator of any connection except in the arbitrary artificial categorization of the racially obsessed? I am not even that sure in most cases...heck I could hardly name all the countries in Africa let alone pick out the ethic background based on physical features...where does it stop?

My grandparents are from 4 different countries. My wife a mix from god knows how many different tribes and cultures. What race are we?

You can draw borders, just as we do for nation-states but then we are arguing about them you better bet you need to justify their purpose and define them clearly, which is certianly not the case from where I am sitting. And unless you have a better answer for me. The only seeming reason seems to be a long past family relation so long far back as to be irrelavent, so its rough arbitrary ethnic group identity at best.

It is perhaps one of the stupidest forms of group-identity I could imagine. If I have more in common with a Japanese culture than my own my customs will be more in line with theirs than my family's culture? If I have medical traits with testable gene expressions than what advantage to I have distinguishing myself by a broad over-generalized nontestable category? If socio-economic class demographics than some type of metal test or personality or industy would be more appropriate, no? Does that not have a far higher correlation?

You want to distinguish on race? I am happy to start see meaning in my awful abilities to distingish the differences, but you better be able to tell me the exact purpose and why that is better than not trying as history shows tribalism based thinking like this going bad 99/100.

In person you do not need to bring it up...why would you? You realize this is an internal thing right? You recognize it's an issue "in your mind". You use your judgement on whether or not it's a factor in some decision you make. That's it, how can you oppose that as anything but common sense?

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So it’s rough ethnic group-identity? Then why do we not care how bad it usually goes?!? :shock:

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

I see no reason that isn't just racists creating a narrative where the truth is twisted to support a falsity.

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Right, so recognizing racism is racist is your point.
Just another Conaeolos contradiction right? Up is down, white is black, dead is alive, real is imaginary.

My grandparents are from 4 different countries. My wife a mix from god knows how many different tribes and cultures. What race are we?

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Are you saying most blacks in the U.S. are not identifiable as black? Good gods man.
Some of the richest most successful most celebrates blacks are still discriminated against in a racist manner. What rock are you living under?

It is perhaps one of the stupidest forms of group-identity I could imagine.

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WHAT THE ****.
Racism is stupid therefore it doesn't exist?!?
Because many white (males) look at themselves as superior and/or blacks as inferior, therefore don't talk about it because it's stupid!?
What does whether or not a black make identifies as black, have to do with them experiencing racism in the Untied States?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

ecofarm said:

There are a million ways in which we as society and individuals address racism. Your suggestion that race be ignored is stupid at best and racist in result.

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Soooo, a colorblind society is bad?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

Right, so recognizing racism is racist is your point.

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Labelling a racist action/comment/policy makes perfect sense. I never denied it's a thing. I never said it wasn't a problem. Identifying and analyzing systematic issues by race though yeah that is by definition racist, it ain't subtle but in your face racist. And it has no place in political mainstream or constructive dialogue.

Get over your racism man. I do not understand why that is so difficult, no. You want this to get worse or better? Cause the solution stops when the bs labels do.

I went to some bs workplace training once that said a black person couldn't be racist as you need race + power to be, does that sound part of the solution?...I saw a video on that yesterday on Facebook gaining and not being called out...I was forced to learn why they say that in university, it doesn't end well...yeah still all 100% racism. Still 100% leading to violence, oppression and murder. I don't care if it ain (insert) racism...ideas stands on their own merits... And no I am not going to sit back and fail to call it for what it is...

Just another Conaeolos contradiction right? Up is down, white is black, dead is alive, real is imaginary.

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In a sense, racism using its counter argument to propagate, story as old as time.

Are you saying most blacks in the U.S. are not identifiable as black?

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Sure - oh now skin colour is race?

This is skin color issue? No I refuse to treat or categorize someone over having a freaking darker color of skin. This is not the 1950s my God man...find a real group!

Some of the richest most successful most celebrates blacks are still discriminated against in a racist manner. What rock are you living under?

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Everyone's discriminated against. If your a freaking celebrity and you think your interpersonal problems are due to the color of your skin. There is a problem but it ain't a racist system.

Racism is stupid therefore it doesn't exist?!?

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Doesn't exist and not part of the solution could not be more different.

Because many white (males) look at themselves as superior and/or blacks as inferior, therefore don't talk about it because it's stupid!?

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Get over yourself. If someone's claim to superiority is based on the color of their skin they've got bigger problems.

What does whether or not a black make identifies as black, have to do with them experiencing racism in the Untied States?

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I am sure they have to its part of the culture at this point. That doesn't change till we push it out of the dialogue and back into the fridges. Why is that so scary? Honesty. If your telling me anyone needs to identify as black to fight racism, please explain cause that is bonkers. Every history you'll ever read goes like this, it's black/white today, east/west black/white tomorrow till the indistinguishable tribes gather and are killing each other over meaningless differences.

My God man, you don't have to change your politics, just stop basing societal issues on race....that's it...pick a real measure worth discussing. Something that actually correlates. Something worthy of identifying behind...

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

countryboy said:

Soooo, a colorblind society is bad?

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Is heaven bad?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

[Racism] doesn't exist and [racism is] not part of the solution could not be more different.

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Who claimed racism was part of the solution? Be specific.

No, the solution presented to you three times, and that I agreed with in it being pointed out to you, was here:

ecof said:

1. Accept that racism still exists and still holds back black people and other minorities.
2. Understand that ignoring a problem does not make it go away.
It's really that simple. If you can't get your head around that, no one can help you.

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Still curious if you reject that or accept it!

My God man, you don't have to change your politics, just stop basing societal issues on race....

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My politics? What do you know about my politics on any issue related to this? You don't, so why are you misrepresenting me?

To educate yourself on racism, I suggest you appeal to science - you know, the study of reality. (I know, I know, you think real is imaginary). That's right, science, not religion, not politics. Not eco, not me, not your own fantastic dream world of nonsense. You could of course publish some works that refute all the work in sociology on this, but stomping your foot and saying you don't "see" race, just makes your responses look absurd.

Racism is studied primarily as part of the science of Sociology.

Sociology is the scientific study of society, including patterns of social relationships, social interaction, and culture.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] It is a social science that uses various methods of empirical investigation[SUP][4][/SUP] and critical analysis[SUP][5][/SUP] to develop a body of knowledge about social order, acceptance, and change.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
(some 250ish references + further reading)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_race_and_ethnic_relations

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0038038513501943
meta-paper w/50 or so references

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

Is heaven bad?

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Bowling shoes?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

countryboy said:

Bowling shoes?

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No, bowling shoes are real. (It was about real vs fiction, not relevant vs irrelevant)

This "colorblind society" and "heaven" are not real, which is why they aren't used as the standard for how we discuss the implications of racism in the United States.

Soooo, a colorblind society is bad?

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What society are you referring to that is "colorblind" without racism?

Would it be good if racism didn't exist? Yes.
What does that have to do with recognizing it exists and accepting that individual awareness of this can improve outcomes?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

No, bowling shoes are real. (It was about real vs fiction, not relevant vs irrelevant)

This "colorblind society" and "heaven" are not real, which is why they aren't used as the standard for how we discuss the implications of racism in the United States.


What society are you referring to that is "colorblind" without racism?

Would it be good if racism didn't exist? Yes.
What does that have to do with recognizing it exists and accepting that individual awareness of this can improve outcomes?

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Point escapes liberal, shocking. :roll:

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Captain Adverse said:

This is from Malcolm X back in the days of change:



Malcolm X


Now these are from (IMO) two intelligent young Black American peers of today in response to the BLM leader's "10 Demands for White People.":



and



Stop looking for handouts. Give up the "everyone owes me because "Slavery!" meme.

Instead, embrace the work hard, study hard, and self-motivate ethic that is a proven method of personal success.

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Put me down in the "reparations is crazy talk" category. We'd all go broke trying to pay back the Native Americans for what we did - we'd never get to the African Americans.

I'm not saying that racism is a non problem - it is a problem. Work on that. Reparations <- not workable, and solves nothing.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

countryboy said:

Point escapes liberal, shocking. :roll:

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You still think you had a point? Yes, your one liners are just so deep countryboy, whatever will I do. So dismayed.

So, what society are you referring to that is "colorblind" without racism?

Would it be good if racism didn't exist? Yes.
What does that have to do with recognizing it exists and accepting that individual awareness of this can improve outcomes?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

Who claimed racism was part of the solution? Be specific.

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Lots of people. How are Eco and your responses racist you mean?

Simple, and it comes down to one question:

Is there any objective verse subjective way to determine race?
The in fact answer is always no.

The solution for racism therefore is in removing the subjective classification of race not addressing the systemic problems of racism (which is a self fulfilling loop)

Yes there is systemic racism. No I doubt it's what you think.

Still curious if you reject that or accept it!

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Reject on account of it being a racist sentiment.
#1 needs to stop at racism still exists

#2 is reframing a solution as call to act in more racist ways. It frames the problem as the fallout of racism rather than the source: classification based on race. Racism is subjective and thus needs to be changed by a change in point of view.

So choosing to not classify black/white is not ignoring the issue. It's removing race as a factor and allowing one to be in a position to implement a solution to huge fallout of racism.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

Lots of people.

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Lots' of strawmen. If it's not the people you are debating with, then WTF are you doing?

How are Eco and your responses racist you mean?

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Just to be clear, you have now claimed this statement (I assume you omitted #2 its generic) is an exhibition of racism
->1. Accept that racism still exists and still holds back black people and other minorities.

To talk about racism, is racist. To talk about crime, is criminal. To talk about evil, is evil.
While your imaginary world is just as crazy as right-wing media, at least it's not the same old Hannity/Tucker/Right wing media crap that so many of the faithful spew.

Is there any objective verse subjective way to determine race?
The in fact answer is always no.

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Demonstrate objectively the fact that the answer is no.
Also, demonstrate how it's of critical relevance.

Sociology as a field of science, disagrees with you.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

American said:

Malcolm X said liberal whites are lying pieces of ****. It doesn't much matter to me, except it confirms what we've always said about liberals. They've been lying to blacks since the start.

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Lessee: white liberals supported civil rights legislation in employment, housing and public accommodations, supported laws to raise the minimum wage, protect unions, make factories safer, make lynching a federal crime, etc., while many white conservatives opposed these efforts. Obviously this was just a smokescreen by liberals for their lying, nefarious attempts to... what? Oh, get black votes? What a surprise, that people whose oppression by segregation is relieved by legislation reward politicians who help bring that about with their votes. Bad liberals!

And Malcolm evolved later in life and changed his views on white people.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Zalatix said:

LOL like black people should give a damn what Conservatives have to say about us.

In case you haven't checked the 2016 exit polls we've politically seceded from your culture. 88% of black men voted for Hillary, as did 94% of black women. And after Trump, we're never coming back.

Keep shouting, no one's listening, except maybe Ben Carson.

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Battered wife syndrome?

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

Just to be clear, you have now claimed this statement (I assume you omitted #2 its generic) is an exhibition of racism

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This conversation is a discussion on how to solve systemic racism in our society. I am not sure a conversation could be any less racist.

Where is the racism in your statements? Here is an example:

Mach said:

You do understand that "I don't see race" is a cliche associated with majority white (males most often)? Most recently popularized by Steven Colbert on the Colbert Report in making fun of Bill O'Reily, a right wing nutjob.

Just so you're clear, by denying it, you ensure you can't take action based on it. Which is in a way, denying racism, which could arguably be considered implicit racism.

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The only way the underlined statement could be said is if you accept a classification based on race exists and is objectively definable.

Is the statement "I don't see it" stupid and worthy of a joke? Of course. As both you and I know racism is very real and there are arbitrary ethnic markers one can use if they wish to be racist. Of course, that is not what that statement even means so it's not an insightful joke but a haha of language. No racism isn't gone, that's a dumb republican talking point - but neither is it stoped via policy/personal actions or attitudes based on race.

As to the bolded: You should never take action based on it. That is racist! That is what makes that statement racist.

To talk about racism, is racist.

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To define and take action based on race is racist. We talking right now about it without hurting anyone. The same could be true of a joke about difference of black/whites. Gets different when talking actions and decisions.

Demonstrate objectively the fact that the answer is no.
Also, demonstrate how it's of critical relevance.

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Your honestly arguing it's not relevant racism is subjective? And your maintaining I have to prove it's not objective? Really!?! You understand that is probably one of the most racist things you've ever said.

But okay, if I am wrong and it's objective - there is nothing wrong with racism. So yeah how about that for relevance.

Sociology as a field of science, disagrees with you.

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And so is Christian scientists? lol sociology is not a science lol social-biology is a science. Sociology is people exploring ideas. In this case racist ideas.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Conaeolos said:

The only way the underlined statement could be said is if you accept a classification based on race exists and is objectively definable.

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What a crock of ****.

sociology is not a science

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And there he goes.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Mach said:

What a crock of ****.

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So if we agree racism is subjective. We agree it exists, then we only disagree if we should make classification based on this subjective race measure.

You say sociology does so without being racist. Great so now we know say blacks have a higher rate of incarceration compared to whites. Please do explain how to address that problem without race based policies or actions; meanwhile, I say we should rather focus on America's rediculosly high incarceration and poverty rate period no need to look at race. Racism component solving itself as policies and attitudes shift from race problems to American problems. Do explain my horrible error? On a micro level we have seen that is the only approch which works.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Captain Adverse said:

This is from Malcolm X back in the days of change:



Malcolm X


Now these are from (IMO) two intelligent young Black American peers of today in response to the BLM leader's "10 Demands for White People.":



and



Stop looking for handouts. Give up the "everyone owes me because "Slavery!" meme.

Instead, embrace the work hard, study hard, and self-motivate ethic that is a proven method of personal success.

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"Instead, embrace the work hard, study hard, and self-motivate ethic that is a proven method of personal success."

Then you are saying that African-Americans do not "... work hard, study hard, and self-motivate ethic that is a proven method of personal success.", unlike white people? Back up what you say.

Re: How Black American's Should View the "Liberals for Reparations" Race Bait Narrati

Beaudreaux said:

Geeze-Louis Eco, that isn't even close to what I said. So, no.

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Let's examine our divide, if only for the audience's sake. Here's what you wrote regarding Kaepernick:

he was using the X hat to represent the black race against the USA as a whole by kneeling during the national anthem, which made it racial.

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"The black race against the USA as a whole". You believe Kaepernick supports that?

I'll give my opinion of Kaepernick's protest, then perhaps we can compare and wonder at the difference:

Kaepernicks protest is righteous. Police brutality, especially regarding minorities, is a real issue. It is an issue worthy of attention and CK has done much to bring the issue to the forefront of conversation. Aside from his NFL protest, he has given a million and a ton of his time as an activist. I do have an issue with protesting at work, but the issue is bigger than that and, as an offense for an NFL player, it's hardly misrepresenting an employer/owner.

I don't really understand how someone gets from my perception to ~"racist, anti-US hatemonger".