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Texas $20 Gal of Gas, $8.50 Bottle of Water

What's moral? Government?
People.

Like it or not, we the people routinely use laws and government action to enforce and reinforce moral principles. Injunctions against murder, theft, rape, and more are obviously based in moral concerns. So are attempts to regulate abortion, drugs, marriage, and yes price gouging.

Surrendering this because you live in a system that is designed to ensure that no one individual gets their way 100% of the time is, to put it mildly, self-defeating.


There's no such thing as magic. But if something is selling at a much larger price,I would argue that supply would increase. ( so would everybody economist who is honest I'd think)....
Sure, if you are completely clueless about the effects of a crisis, like a hurricane.

Let's consider a store that stocks up on water before a crisis. The owner is still getting water at the normal price (or close to it). He has a few additional costs, namely storage, but it's not like his costs increased tenfold, or unsold water will spoil in 3 days. He is not justified in charging more before the storm, simply because there is a temporary surge in demand due to expecting a crisis. That's just taking advantage of people.

What about during a crisis? How will that "go getter from Austin" transport enough bottles of water to Houston, exactly? He's not going to have much luck driving a truck full of water into a neighborhood that was inundated with several feet of water.

Wouldn't that "go getter" provide a better service by... getting people? Rescuing people who are stranded, and taking them to shelter? Should the "Cajun Navy" charge $10 for water, when they pick people up?

And do we actually want untrained people, going INTO a crisis area, to make a quick buck? Enough to actually make a dent in scarce supplies? At a time, we might add, when federal agencies and the National Guard have logistical challenges transporting supplies into an afflicted area? I seriously doubt it.


What does? low pricing?
Rationing.

It really isn't that hard to say "X bottles per adult, kids get X+1, senior citizens get X+2."

Nothing will be perfect. But it is much fairer to ration supplies than to sell it to the highest bidder - especially as that person could, in your schema, hoard up every bottle of water he could find, and resell it at an even higher price.


I would argue that high pricing does to tend to factor in need. The average person will think twice about how much water they buy if it's 10 dollars a bottles,buying only what they absolutely need.
Or, they will buy as much as they can anyway.

The type of claim you make is a typical error of classical economics. You assume that people who are in the middle of a hurricane and flood will react rationally and calmly to economic incentives! It's absurd. People don't act very rationally in the first place, which is why they are routinely and repeatedly swayed by factors like anchoring, or prices of "$34.99" instead of "$35," or hyperbolic discounting. They don't act more rationally when their house and car are sitting in 3 feet of water.


Nothing shred s the social fabric more than driving 50 miles to get water onlt find out they're all out becuase it went fast because the price was artifiallially low,
Riiiiiight. Driving 50 miles in this? Try again.

harveyflood.jpg


Yet again, you're merely presenting an argument for rationing, not higher prices. Higher prices do not prevent people from buying more than they need, it just makes it more expensive to do so. Higher prices also do not make it a snap to drive down a flooded highway.

Let's say that your local supermarket happens to be on higher ground, and manages to stay open. Its supply is limited; it has 1000 bottles of water; and in the aftermath of the storm, 500 people want water. If you ration it at 2 per person, everyone gets 2 bottles. Charging $10 or $20 or $30 per bottle doesn't actually reduce demand, because the demand is inelastic -- did you miss that day in your Econ 101 class? -- meaning the demand doesn't change based on price. It also doesn't increase supply, because there is no way to restock the store, at any price. It doesn't result in an equitable distribution, because you can still have some desperate individual who is willing to drop $1000 to buy 3 cases of water (when he only needs one). Or, better yet, you can have someone who buys 10 cases of water, and decides to charge $40 per bottle.

And who benefits here? The seller. Funny thing, when you get taken advantage of someone, you don't benefit.

Thanks, yet again, for showing the moral vacuum and lack of efficiency and equity of price gouging.
 
The time to evacuate was when they said the storm was coming not after it hit. The governor of Texas advised everyone in the path to evacuate. The mayor of Houston told them to stay put. You can bet if my governor says to evacuate, I'm gone.
 
The time to evacuate was when they said the storm was coming not after it hit. The governor of Texas advised everyone in the path to evacuate. The mayor of Houston told them to stay put. You can bet if my governor says to evacuate, I'm gone.

And the flip side of that is trying to evacuate 3 million people using only 4 or 5 freeways. What's better, being home in a flood, or being in a car in a flood? That's a tough call to make, however we armchair quarterback it.
 
And the flip side of that is trying to evacuate 3 million people using only 4 or 5 freeways. What's better, being home in a flood, or being in a car in a flood? That's a tough call to make, however we armchair quarterback it.

How many days notice did they have that the storm was coming? You can make all the excuses that you want for why they didn't evacuate. You can sit there and claim that they couldn't evacuate. This storm was predicted days in advance. There aren't just the interstates that can be used to leave the area. Look at a map. We had two lane highways long before we had those fancy multilane roads. It's not like this was St Simons Island where there's only one bridge out.
 
Peo Should the "Cajun Navy" charge $10 for water, when they pick people up?

Aning.


Well they could have. If you were about to drown, would you care about paying 10 bucks for water?

You're all confused though. The issue is whether Govt need to get involved. You want them to tell suppliers not only how much they can charge,but how much they can sell. ( good grief -I have a headache) .

Of course any store is free to give away the water and ration it in any way they please.
 
How many days notice did they have that the storm was coming? You can make all the excuses that you want for why they didn't evacuate.
Actually, it's not excuses. It's due to experience.

Authorities tried to evacuate when Rita approached in 2005, and it was a total mess. Traffic was gridlocked, abandoned cars cluttered the roads and shoulders, people were stuck in hot cars with hot weather. The attempt to evacuate Houston resulted in the deaths of 100 people, which is likely more fatalities than if they'd stayed.


We had two lane highways long before we had those fancy multilane roads. It's not like this was St Simons Island where there's only one bridge out.
You might want to recheck that map ;)

There are only 5 major roads that exit Houston away from the storm, and several of those turn into smaller (1-2 lane highways) shortly out of town.

We also weren't trying to transport 4-6 million people in 48 hours via those two-lane highways.
 
Actually, it's not excuses. It's due to experience.

Authorities tried to evacuate when Rita approached in 2005, and it was a total mess. Traffic was gridlocked, abandoned cars cluttered the roads and shoulders, people were stuck in hot cars with hot weather. The attempt to evacuate Houston resulted in the deaths of 100 people, which is likely more fatalities than if they'd stayed.

You might want to recheck that map ;)

There are only 5 major roads that exit Houston away from the storm, and several of those turn into smaller (1-2 lane highways) shortly out of town.

We also weren't trying to transport 4-6 million people in 48 hours via those two-lane highways.

Only five MAJOR roads. There are many more roads out of Houston. The fact remains that they had plenty of notice and opted to not leave because the mayor told them not to go. Bad call on his part.
 
"We don't need no stink'n regulations."



It sure is nice watching Texans coming to each other's aid. There is nothing like a free wheeling libertarian society. Is there?

God Bless America ... :lamo

One minute your fellow Citizen is saving your life, just to screw you and take what little money you have left.

I guess there's no profit in dead people.
 
God Bless America ... :lamo

One minute your fellow Citizen is saving your life, just to screw you and take what little money you have left.

I guess there's no profit in dead people.

What kind of mind jacks up the price of water when people need it the most? Me, I'd probably be giving it away. I mean, how much would you lose, a couple hundred bucks?

I guess I am just a stupid, gullible liberal. A real American would charge $100 a bottle for his last few cases.
 
What kind of mind jacks up the price of water when people need it the most? Me, I'd probably be giving it away. I mean, how much would you lose, a couple hundred bucks?

I guess I am just a stupid, gullible liberal. A real American would charge $100 a bottle for his last few cases.

I bet these Great Patriotic Americans even stand for The National Anthem :2razz:
 
I bet these Great Patriotic Americans even stand for The National Anthem :2razz:

Well, they did vote for Trump, who made a living off of stiffing people. So...it's just par for the course: go to church in the morning, fume over the guy kneeling during the pregame festivities at noon, and rip off your neighbors at 3. MAGA.
 
Well, they did vote for Trump, who made a living off of stiffing people. So...it's just par for the course: go to church in the morning, fume over the guy kneeling during the pregame festivities at noon, and rip off your neighbors at 3. MAGA.

Well it's the Screwing they get for the Screwball they Voted for ...:2razz:

Wait ... can I use the word "screw" on this forum? :confused:
 
Well it's the Screwing they get for the Screwball they Voted for ...:2razz:

Wait ... can I use the word "screw" on this forum? :confused:

I wonder how Texans feel about Donny screwing over the GOP and siding with the Dems to expedite their relief funds. I bet Texas is as confused today as as one of those whales that can't stop himself from swimming into the beach.
 
On the other hand, (solely in the name of playing devil's advocate) there are economic arguments for such price increases:

1. Critics claim that laws against price-gouging could discourage businesses from proactively preparing for a disaster. With price gouging laws in place, producers are only able to charge a price set by law, and therefore have little additional incentive to increase supply to adversely impacted areas. If producers are able to make extra profit, these theorists argue, then they will increase the supply.

2. In support of the argument against price-gouging legislation, some assert that a similar situation applies to those who are outside of the disaster zone and willing to go there to sell what is desperately needed. If they are unable to recover their travel costs and be compensated for the inconvenience of staying in an inhospitable disaster zone, only the altruistic few would bother to do so.

3. Opponents of anti-price gouging laws also claim that in terms of fairness, such laws could also require producers to sell goods below their market-clearing price: the market clearing price is the amount at which quantity supplied is equal to quantity demanded.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

Meanwhile most States do have laws against price-gouging in areas declared disaster areas. Texas is one and so those purveyor's of $20 gallons of gasoline et al will pay for their greed in the end.

Exactly, should we act in some fairness ideal or should we allow free market principles keep up the supply and keep down the hoarding. If the price is low people will hoard a scarce commodity, they will purchase more than they need meaning some who need will not get.

Yes politicians posturing and how they are not going to let this happen and how unfair but then when the store owner runs out of gas because he can't get a trucker to haul in gas to that area in chaos at normal prices knowing how it's also going to cost him two days deadheading just trying to get back out what does the politician say then.
 
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What kind of mind jacks up the price of water when people need it the most?

Well you want to make sure those that really need it are the ones who take it and only take what they need. And if you live on Gulf or Eastern coast, the time to buy your emergency waters is way before an hurricane is approaching, same with checking your batteries and propane and making sure you got food you can survive on. What you don't use then you use later.
 
Well you want to make sure those that really need it are the ones who take it and only take what they need. And if you live on Gulf or Eastern coast, the time to buy your emergency waters is way before an hurricane is approaching, same with checking your batteries and propane and making sure you got food you can survive on. What you don't use then you use later.

That or buy 12 cases and sell $10 bottles to the idiots who failed to prepare. I know the mindset. Doesn't make it right though.

If it did, we'd tell Texas to pound sand right now...you know, since they failed to prepare :roll:
 
You are every bit as rigid in your political philosophy as I am. Why would you deny that?

Because it supports the ridiculous narrative that he is something other than a liberal.
 
Only five MAJOR roads. There are many more roads out of Houston. The fact remains that they had plenty of notice and opted to not leave because the mayor told them not to go. Bad call on his part.

While the people of Houston are certainly enduring hardship, fewer people have been killed by Harvey than were killed by the evacuation of Houston during Rita. 45 people so far known dead from Harvey, well over a hundred during Rita's evacuation. So it's a coin-toss really. The difference of 45 vs. 130 out of 4-6 million people is statistically insignificant. Myself, I'd rather ride it out at home than to be FORCED to evacuate only to then be a sitting duck in my car on the freeway when the storm hits.
 
While the people of Houston are certainly enduring hardship, fewer people have been killed by Harvey than were killed by the evacuation of Houston during Rita. 45 people so far known dead from Harvey, well over a hundred during Rita's evacuation. So it's a coin-toss really. The difference of 45 vs. 130 out of 4-6 million people is statistically insignificant. Myself, I'd rather ride it out at home than to be FORCED to evacuate only to then be a sitting duck in my car on the freeway when the storm hits.

I understand. Of course, if you were stuck sitting in your car on the freeway it would be because you weren't smart enough to plan ahead and evacuate before the storm actually hit.
 
Only five MAJOR roads. There are many more roads out of Houston.
All of which would turn into parking lots, if everyone tried to evacuate. Which is what happened with Rita.

Harvey's death toll is around 23 people so far. The evacuation from Rita resulted in more than 100 deaths. Which is the worse outcome?

Cars run out of gas in the middle of the highway. Accidents with that many people are inevitable. People abandon cars on the shoulder, making it impossible for emergency services to get through. Even switching inbound roads to outbound traffic doesn't provide enough lanes.

There are just too many people, not enough gas, and not enough road capacity. An evacuation won't work. The Mayor made the right call.


Conversely, Florida's politicians are probably doing the right thing by telling residents of the east coast of Florida to evacuate. A Cat 5 hurricane is likely to destroy most structures in its path, and it's relatively easy to travel to a safer area (e.g. Florida's west coast).

Even that effort has resulted in massive traffic jams. Cars are stuck at 20mph (at best), travel times have tripled or quadrupled. Fuel is running out, only half of the state's gas stations are open, waiting time for fuel can take an hour. If they can't evacuate people in time, it's going to be a nightmare. Fortunately, hurricane warnings are more accurate and earlier than in 2000 or 2005, giving most of Florida more time to skedaddle.
 
I understand. Of course, if you were stuck sitting in your car on the freeway it would be because you weren't smart enough to plan ahead and evacuate before the storm actually hit.
Or, because 3 million other people decided to leave town at the same time you did.
 
All of which would turn into parking lots, if everyone tried to evacuate. Which is what happened with Rita.

Harvey's death toll is around 23 people so far. The evacuation from Rita resulted in more than 100 deaths. Which is the worse outcome?

Cars run out of gas in the middle of the highway. Accidents with that many people are inevitable. People abandon cars on the shoulder, making it impossible for emergency services to get through. Even switching inbound roads to outbound traffic doesn't provide enough lanes.

There are just too many people, not enough gas, and not enough road capacity. An evacuation won't work. The Mayor made the right call.


Conversely, Florida's politicians are probably doing the right thing by telling residents of the east coast of Florida to evacuate. A Cat 5 hurricane is likely to destroy most structures in its path, and it's relatively easy to travel to a safer area (e.g. Florida's west coast).

Even that effort has resulted in massive traffic jams. Cars are stuck at 20mph (at best), travel times have tripled or quadrupled. Fuel is running out, only half of the state's gas stations are open, waiting time for fuel can take an hour. If they can't evacuate people in time, it's going to be a nightmare. Fortunately, hurricane warnings are more accurate and earlier than in 2000 or 2005, giving most of Florida more time to skedaddle.

I left Orlando and drove back to Monroe today. It took me about 8 hours. It normally takes me about six and a half. If people want to get out of the path of the storm they can. On the other hand if they want excuses they can look to you. Anyone that didn't evacuate is an IDIOT. They deserve whatever befalls them and I have no sympathy for the fools.
 
Or, because 3 million other people decided to leave town at the same time you did.

More excuses. There are many roads out. You make your plans to evacuate when it is still sunny. During hurricane season you keep your fuel tanks full. If you don't, you expect to panic.
 
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