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Antifa vs Nationalists - 1933 Germany playing out again?

Cable said:
I would just say try not to take it personally. If the centrists can't agree here I think the fringe is empowered. That is how they win and we all lose.

Not giving a rats ass is turning a blind eye. Willful ignorance. Sure, it's great when Nationalists get taken down but what happens when they turn to the next boogieman? Could be the white male Christian, he isn't very popular with the liberals these days. Really, this is already happening to some extent at these rallies. These Antifa aren't very discriminating in their stick thumpings.
And won't turning a blind eye to this punch-what-you don't-like simply drive all who get punched to the arms of the Nationalists?
So both groups are empowered by your tactic.
This is how this grows out of control and affects everyone. Right/
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haha...I'm a white male Christian and a Liberal. It isn't being white and male and Christian that's the problem, it's being part of the other crap that some white male Christians have engaged in. You avoid becoming a boogieman by not being one, simple as that.

I agree with you that AntiFa is a problem, though I very much disagree with how you are trying to generalize the Left overall by connecting us with them, in the same way that I take exception to those that try to smear the entire Right with the Nazi / white supremacist fringe, despite the fact, as mentioned before, Nazi's vocally align with the Right, while AntiFa denounces Liberals as well as the Right.

All I'm simply saying is that I would never lift a finger to help a Nazi, and I'm definitely not alone in that, which might be why it appears that Liberals (and some folks on the right not utterly caught up in partisan outrage) are turning a blind eye. But two things can be true: I don't like AntiFa's methodology, but I find their target (Nazis) acceptable, in that I don't lose a second of sleep thinking about some swastika-clad jackass parading around in public getting a brick in the face for trying to restrict or eliminate the rights of their fellow citizens. If they deal that much hatred, they should expect some hatred in return. Outside of that context I'm right with you, AntiFa need to simmer down.
 
OlNate said:
haha...I'm a white male Christian and a Liberal. It isn't being white and male and Christian that's the problem, it's being part of the other crap that some white male Christians have engaged in. You avoid becoming a boogieman by not being one, simple as that.

I agree with you that AntiFa is a problem, though I very much disagree with how you are trying to generalize the Left overall by connecting us with them, in the same way that I take exception to those that try to smear the entire Right with the Nazi / white supremacist fringe, despite the fact, as mentioned before, Nazi's vocally align with the Right, while AntiFa denounces Liberals as well as the Right.

All I'm simply saying is that I would never lift a finger to help a Nazi, and I'm definitely not alone in that, which might be why it appears that Liberals (and some folks on the right not utterly caught up in partisan outrage) are turning a blind eye. But two things can be true: I don't like AntiFa's methodology, but I find their target (Nazis) acceptable, in that I don't lose a second of sleep thinking about some swastika-clad jackass parading around in public getting a brick in the face for trying to restrict or eliminate the rights of their fellow citizens. If they deal that much hatred, they should expect some hatred in return. Outside of that context I'm right with you, AntiFa need so simmer down.
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I think you are mis-characterizing me and my line of reasoning. Let me give an example of why I fear the uneasy alliances on both sides.

Let's take the Patriots Prayer rally. I don't know if this was white nationals or not, it might be, and if so won't fit my example. So let's pretend that something like that did happen, and it wasn't White Nationals, it was just conservatives rallying to pray for our country.
Then the white Nationalists show up and start their noise. And Antifa shows up and starts theirs. And both sides have sticks and or other more deadly weapons.
And let's say I came out to support the praying patriots who would likely support Trump. And you came out to protest support for Trump. Both reasonable things if we are peaceable.

Suddenly Antifa and the WN start battling, and you and I are in the middle of it. And heads are getting busted. If I can't get out I am going to start fighting, as you would I assume. (let's say you and I represent the centerish positions). So I am by default fighting alongside White Nationalists, and you, Antifa.
The media is going to portray me as a WN sympathizer or worse. And you will be characterized as a Nazi puncher (good guy).
I get screwed by the media, you are a hero. This is actually happening now if you can see it.

How does that play out long term?
 
Cable said:
I think you are mis-characterizing me and my line of reasoning. Let me give an example of why I fear the uneasy alliances on both sides.

Let's take the Patriots Prayer rally. I don't know if this was white nationals or not, it might be, and if so won't fit my example. So let's pretend that something like that did happen, and it wasn't White Nationals, it was just conservatives rallying to pray for our country.
Then the white Nationalists show up and start their noise. And Antifa shows up and starts theirs. And both sides have sticks and or other more deadly weapons.
And let's say I came out to support the praying patriots who would likely support Trump. And you came out to protest support for Trump. Both reasonable things if we are peaceable.

Suddenly Antifa and the WN start battling, and you and I are in the middle of it. And heads are getting busted. If I can't get out I am going to start fighting, as you would I assume. (let's say you and I represent the centerish positions). So I am by default fighting alongside White Nationalists, and you, Antifa.
The media is going to portray me as a WN sympathizer or worse. And you will be characterized as a Nazi puncher (good guy).
I get screwed by the media, you are a hero. This is actually happening now if you can see it.

How does that play out long term?
Click to expand...

I have an idea. If you show up to a place and find yourself surrounded by literal Nazis... uhh, leave.

There's a 0% chance I would find myself fighting alongside Antifa. I would never be on the same block as their protests. You've invented this alliance on this logic:

I hate liberals
I hate Antifa
Therefore they are the same.
 
Cable said:
I think you are mis-characterizing me and my line of reasoning. Let me give an example of why I fear the uneasy alliances on both sides.

Let's take the Patriots Prayer rally. I don't know if this was white nationals or not, it might be, and if so won't fit my example. So let's pretend that something like that did happen, and it wasn't White Nationals, it was just conservatives rallying to pray for our country.
Then the white Nationalists show up and start their noise. And Antifa shows up and starts theirs. And both sides have sticks and or other more deadly weapons.
And let's say I came out to support the praying patriots who would likely support Trump. And you came out to protest support for Trump. Both reasonable things if we are peaceable.

Suddenly Antifa and the WN start battling, and you and I are in the middle of it. And heads are getting busted. If I can't get out I am going to start fighting, as you would I assume. (let's say you and I represent the centerish positions). So I am by default fighting alongside White Nationalists, and you, Antifa.
The media is going to portray me as a WN sympathizer or worse. And you will be characterized as a Nazi puncher (good guy).
I get screwed by the media, you are a hero. This is actually happening now if you can see it.

How does that play out long term?
Click to expand...

Well, for starters, non-white-supremacist, Right leaning organization could tell the Nazis that are piggy backing off of their event that they are not welcome. Just because the Nazis are claiming the Right as their own doesn't mean the Right cannot unanimously reject them...because they are Nazis. Then, perhaps, moderate Left and Right could deal with them together, cooperating to get rid of an influence far worse than anything else they are currently fighting about. And perhaps that unification of efforts could lead to further unification and dialogue that could ultimately close the gap, so that groups like AntiFa are no longer necessary as a reactionary force against Nazis, and both the Right and the Left would be able to put down partisanship and go after AntiFa if they turn from a reactionary faction to provocateurs, like the white supremacists are now.

I mean, that's one way it could turn out, right? If people were able to pull head from ass long enough to work together?

For me, the rule of thumb is simple: If you are simply trying to be yourself, unto yourself, you have my support, no matter what you are trying to do, even if it's being a selfish, hateful prick...you want your life to be like that, fill your boots. But the moment you start trying to erode other people's right to do the same, I'm against you, even if you're using your rights to do it. (Universal "you" being used here, not accusing you specifically of any of this, just to be clear.)
 
Deuce said:
I have an idea. If you show up to a place and find yourself surrounded by literal Nazis... uhh, leave.

There's a 0% chance I would find myself fighting alongside Antifa. I would never be on the same block as their protests. You've invented this alliance on this logic:

I hate liberals
I hate Antifa
Therefore they are the same.
Click to expand...

You are inaccurate on several counts. My example was hypothetical. I would not end up in the situation.
I do not hate liberals. I have many good long-time liberal friends.
I do note equate Antifa directly with liberals. My whole reason for posting this thread was to try to show how there is somewhat of an alliance between Antifa and Libs, and between WN and conservatives.
It is largely by default, not a direct alliance. But it exists.
I wanted to explore how this plays out, as it was a huge contributor to the rise of Nazism and Fascism earlier this century.
 
Agreed, the farthest left and right of the political spectrum do at times seem tyrannical. I don't think that's necessarily new.

In Charlottesville, the Antifa as they are called, as well as other citizens, were not showing for a liberal cause, but rather they were out to protest Nazis, other far-right extremists and their repugnant views. That seems only right and in that sense a comparison between two sides is not valid. But as to the radical left, and I think they are radical, some of their views and actions leave me rather disgusted. Case in point, what happened recently on campus at Evergreen State College, a school on the west side of my state, Washington. Some of the students and faculty are anything but tolerant.
 
OlNate said:
Well, for starters, non-white-supremacist, Right leaning organization could tell the Nazis that are piggy backing off of their event that they are not welcome. Just because the Nazis are claiming the Right as their own doesn't mean the Right cannot unanimously reject them...because they are Nazis. Then, perhaps, moderate Left and Right could deal with them together, cooperating to get rid of an influence far worse than anything else they are currently fighting about. And perhaps that unification of efforts could lead to further unification and dialogue that could ultimately close the gap, so that groups like AntiFa are no longer necessary as a reactionary force against Nazis, and both the Right and the Left would be able to put down partisanship and go after AntiFa if they turn from a reactionary faction to provocateurs, like the white supremacists are now.

I mean, that's one way it could turn out, right? If people were able to pull head from ass long enough to work together?

For me, the rule of thumb is simple: If you are simply trying to be yourself, unto yourself, you have my support, no matter what you are trying to do, even if it's being a selfish, hateful prick...you want your life to be like that, fill your boots. But the moment you start trying to erode other people's right to do the same, I'm against you, even if you're using your rights to do it. (Universal "you" being used here, not accusing you specifically of any of this, just to be clear.)
Click to expand...

I like what you are suggesting here and I do think that is what should be happening. That is why this country has maintained as long as it has, and is key to our future.

I think you may not understand Antifa well though. They are certainly claiming to be a reactionary force against Nazi's. But somehow a large portion of the Country is now calling Trump and other conservatives Nazis. This is unacceptable. I don't care if you are against everything he is doing. Say that and protest those things. But when these invoke Nazi when it is not the case, we have stepped out of reactionary and are now in the offensive realm themselves. Antifa is there already, as are many liberals.
We can't hit that consensus you suggest when each side mischaracterizes the other.
 
Cable said:
I like what you are suggesting here and I do think that is what should be happening. That is why this country has maintained as long as it has, and is key to our future.

I think you may not understand Antifa well though. They are certainly claiming to be a reactionary force against Nazi's. But somehow a large portion of the Country is now calling Trump and other conservatives Nazis. This is unacceptable. I don't care if you are against everything he is doing. Say that and protest those things. But when these invoke Nazi when it is not the case, we have stepped out of reactionary and are now in the offensive realm themselves. Antifa is there already, as are many liberals.
We can't hit that consensus you suggest when each side mischaracterizes the other.
Click to expand...

I agree...but similarly we cannot reach that consensus when "some" Liberals turn to "many" Liberals to "all" Liberals. This problem, from where I'm sitting, is equal on both sides, and the REAL enemy here isn't even AntiFa or the Nazis, it's the politicians and media who whip you guys into such a frenzy for their benefit, and at the head of that circus you have Trump, who has demonstrated his eagerness to divide the nation from the first time he picked up a mic or sent out a tweet from his phone.

I get who AntiFa is, believe me. The reactionary bit was only in the context of their latest targets, the white supremacists. But what I see there is a group of people who are frustrated into action against what all of you should be pissed about, even if they lack the maturity to address it properly. A child is right to scream about a broken leg, but an adult is required to get it fixed. Who do you get pissed at if the kid keeps screaming, and no adult comes to help?
 
OlNate said:
I agree...but similarly we cannot reach that consensus when "some" Liberals turn to "many" Liberals to "all" Liberals. This problem, from where I'm sitting, is equal on both sides, and the REAL enemy here isn't even AntiFa or the Nazis, it's the politicians and media who whip you guys into such a frenzy for their benefit, and at the head of that circus you have Trump, who has demonstrated his eagerness to divide the nation from the first time he picked up a mic or sent out a tweet from his phone.

I get who AntiFa is, believe me. The reactionary bit was only in the context of their latest targets, the white supremacists. But what I see there is a group of people who are frustrated into action against what all of you should be pissed about, even if they lack the maturity to address it properly. A child is right to scream about a broken leg, but an adult is required to get it fixed. Who do you get pissed at if the kid keeps screaming, and no adult comes to help?
Click to expand...

It's great to have a civil conversation with a Progressive! :)
I agree, there is still too much us and them, even between you and I. But we both seem to be thinking the same things about the real problems. Perhaps there is good reason to be hopeful.
 
Cable said:
You are inaccurate on several counts. My example was hypothetical. I would not end up in the situation.
I do not hate liberals. I have many good long-time liberal friends.
I do note equate Antifa directly with liberals. My whole reason for posting this thread was to try to show how there is somewhat of an alliance between Antifa and Libs, and between WN and conservatives.
It is largely by default, not a direct alliance. But it exists.
I wanted to explore how this plays out, as it was a huge contributor to the rise of Nazism and Fascism earlier this century.
Click to expand...

The alliance between liberals and Antifa is weaker than your alliance with Nazis.
 
Deuce said:
The alliance between liberals and Antifa is weaker than your alliance with Nazis.
Click to expand...

That doesn't really sound like something you can know factually.
In a weird way you could say that because Antifa is reduced government that they have something in common with conservatives.
I'm not making that leap, just saying this is far more complicated than left and right.
 
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