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Perceptions of Discrimination

I answered the thread question in post #30, but my comment was to express my shock and empathy in reading what you shared. I know it wasn't an argument or directed toward me. I was just trying to express for myself how my lack of experience does certainly effect my opinion and I am aware of that. I am learning. Reading emotional personal stories like that do influence my understanding of the situation even if they don't sway me as they would if they happen to myself. Anyway sorry to make it about me hope that clears up why I choose to comment.

Wow, its good you are learning but i have to know what country you live in and your approx age to try my best to see logic in post #30
 
1.) Well, I'm gonna assume your father and grandfather had time to process and had gotten support from others by the time they got to you, right? That makes all the difference. That's the difference between 16-year-old me and 28-year-old me. But sometimes, we have to deal with people who are more like 16-year-old me, and that's when this stuff is important to think about.
2.)The statement of fact, or "not all ___" is an issue because that is understandably seen as a warning sign of someone who won't be supportive. And for someone in crisis, that risk is too dangerous to take. That's a line we've heard many times before from people who only cared about their ego. Maybe you're the exception, but why would I take that risk?
3.)The best thing to do when someone is distrustful or negative towards a group is start out with asking WHY they think that. Then you know whether you're dealing with a person who just reads a lot of conspiracy theories, or someone who's just mad about society changing... or someone who is in the middle of an on-going social crisis where they are profoundly unsafe and have experienced violence.
4.) All three of those things call for different conversations.
5.) But if you figure out that you're dealing with the last type, then the best thing to do is just let go of the "not all __" thing, and just show them. If they see that you are only concerned about their safety, and your ego is on some other planet and you don't care about that, then you are showing them that not all people like you are bad. And that is going to stay with them. The next time they meet someone like you, they'll be that little bit more open.
6.) Just acknowledge and offer help. Nothing else.
7.) Eventually you get to me in my late teens, winding up with an Episcopalian boyfriend and going to a church for the first time since my grandmother took me as a little kid, because I wanted to see him in the choir. I was literally shaking. I was terrified they'd notice that I obviously didn't really know the routine. I'd actually been attacked again at school just earlier that week for defending a Jewish friend.
8.)Nothing happened. Everyone was very nice to me. While I was there, I learned that some of the Episcopal church had just started allowing LGBT clergy.
It took over a year of dating for me to trust him enough to set foot in his church. But I did. And nothing happened. Except that I learned some Christians don't mind outsiders visiting, and were starting to accept the LGBT.
9.) He never bothered to tell me "not all Christians." He went to that school too, and he damn well knew what I went through, and that the people I was taking blows for went through even worse.
He just showed me, and his church showed me. And it took a very long time. But as long as he didn't make it about his ego, that was a risk I could take.
10.)No, people in trauma are not always reasonable. Hell, it seems silly to me now that I was literally on the edge of a panic attack walking into a church. But I have to remember what 18-year-old me had been through, and then it doesn't seem so ridiculous. It seems understandable.
11.)We need to meet them where they are. We can't help them gain a more reasonable perspective until we end their crisis. No human in crisis is reasonable. They are simply surviving as best they know how: by taking as few risks as possible. That's reasonable, with the level of violence they face. The perspective that the rest of us think is reasonable is based on the fact that we are mostly safe. They're not, and they don't think the same way.
12.) They are going to take your actions more seriously than any statement you could ever make.

1.) i don tknow, my dad, yes he had some for sure. My grandfather i doubt
2.) oh im not saying you have to take the risk or accept it im simply pointing out that the statment alone is not indicative of anything else. Caution is wise.
3.) I agree
4.) agreed but i dont abandon facts in any of them
5.) just not seeing how both is harmful :shrug:
6.) done that plenty
7.) such a terrible thing and just reading it makes me sad and mad . . such stupidity
8.) awesome
9.) but if he did everything the same and still told you not all would you have judged him concretely in returned and not journeyed down that path
10.) i agree human in trauma are not always reasonable, or perceived truma which to them is the same.
11.) i agree
12.) that was really my only and main point
 
Wow, its good you are learning but i have to know what country you live in and your approx age to try my best to see logic in post #30

Grew up predominately in Western(conservative) Canada. Started going back and forth to America once independent, been full time in America for awhile with homes in two states(a northern one, one southern one) - the wife and her horses mean we all over though :roll: I'm in my mid-late 30s.
 
Grew up predominately in Western(conservative) Canada. Started going back and forth to America once independent, been full time in America for awhile with homes in two states(a northern one, one southern one) - the wife and her horses mean we all over though :roll: I'm in my mid-late 30s.

So until very recently you just dont really know anything about american culture history, society, lifestyles, laws and policies in general. That would explain alot. Thank you.
 
1.) i don tknow, my dad, yes he had some for sure. My grandfather i doubt
2.) oh im not saying you have to take the risk or accept it im simply pointing out that the statment alone is not indicative of anything else. Caution is wise.
3.) I agree
4.) agreed but i dont abandon facts in any of them
5.) just not seeing how both is harmful :shrug:
6.) done that plenty
7.) such a terrible thing and just reading it makes me sad and mad . . such stupidity
8.) awesome
9.) but if he did everything the same and still told you not all would you have judged him concretely in returned and not journeyed down that path
10.) i agree human in trauma are not always reasonable, or perceived truma which to them is the same.
11.) i agree
12.) that was really my only and main point

9. If he had done so at any point in the early months of us dating, yes, I probably would have judged him differently. Like I said, to me, EVERY other person who had EVER said that to me wound up abandoning me when I needed protection.

That's the point here -- that's what's wrong with that statement, when you say it to someone in the middle of crisis. They hear it as a warning sign. And maybe it doesn't seem reasonable to us, people who are pretty safe and can take risks. But they aren't in that position. They aren't safe enough to take that risk.
 
9. If he had done so at any point in the early months of us dating, yes, I probably would have judged him differently. Like I said, to me, EVERY other person who had EVER said that to me wound up abandoning me when I needed protection.

That's the point here -- that's what's wrong with that statement, when you say it to someone in the middle of crisis. They hear it as a warning sign. And maybe it doesn't seem reasonable to us, people who are pretty safe and can take risks. But they aren't in that position. They aren't safe enough to take that risk.

But thats not true, thats how that statment affected YOU. It's not how it affects everybody in crisis. Not my grandfather, no my dad.

Now maybe my dad or my grandfather had OTHER things they didnt like to here, thats VERY possible but people cant plan for that. I cant avoid all facts because person a-z "might" be bothered by it. For them that statment had the opposite affect.
For me it did too BUT i can say i dont think i have ever been in crisis IMO. Certainly not to the level of you and most certainly not the level of them.

I have lost some friends over disagreements or who i thought were friends.
I lost ONE job. I have had relationship problems over it.
I have been attacked.
I have been told i was going to be killed a few times.
I have had people I thought were just fine prove they were anything but and totally betray me based on race
I was the only one charged with underage drinking one time in a group of 12 people. 6 boys 6 girls at the age of 19.
I had a teacher flat out lie about me one time and try to get me expelled when i was attacked.

But thats really it "directly" for me
There are many other cases against friends and family though

Like you it gave me pause and anxiety at times and put me in protection mode.

But at the end of the day I can give guidance, state the truth and show them I'm willing to but my money where my mouth is and roll up my sleeves and act also.
 
But thats not true, thats how that statment affected YOU. It's not how it affects everybody in crisis. Not my grandfather, no my dad.

Now maybe my dad or my grandfather had OTHER things they didnt like to here, thats VERY possible but people cant plan for that. I cant avoid all facts because person a-z "might" be bothered by it. For them that statment had the opposite affect.
For me it did too BUT i can say i dont think i have ever been in crisis IMO. Certainly not to the level of you and most certainly not the level of them.

I have lost some friends over disagreements or who i thought were friends.
I lost ONE job. I have had relationship problems over it.
I have been attacked.
I have been told i was going to be killed a few times.
I have had people I thought were just fine prove they were anything but and totally betray me based on race
I was the only one charged with underage drinking one time in a group of 12 people. 6 boys 6 girls at the age of 19.
I had a teacher flat out lie about me one time and try to get me expelled when i was attacked.

But thats really it "directly" for me
There are many other cases against friends and family though

Like you it gave me pause and anxiety at times and put me in protection mode.

But at the end of the day I can give guidance, state the truth and show them I'm willing to but my money where my mouth is and roll up my sleeves and act also.

Heh, tell that to MLK, who came down like a hammer on the "moderate" whites who went "not all white people" and used that as an excuse to do nothing. I'm not the first person to point this out.

The take-away here, is that when you come from a protected group and a person in crisis tells you they're in crisis, and you respond by, basically, talking about yourself (since presumably you include yourself in the "not all" group), that is probably going to make them think you're a risk. And there is a GOOD REASON why they think that.

You asked me what can be done to change these people's mind. I'm telling you: don't make it about yourself.
 
1.) Heh, tell that to MLK, who came down like a hammer on the "moderate" whites who went "not all white people" and used that as an excuse to do nothing. I'm not the first person to point this out.
2.)The take-away here, is that when you come from a protected group and a person in crisis tells you they're in crisis, and you respond by, basically, talking about yourself (since presumably you include yourself in the "not all" group), that is probably going to make them think you're a risk. And there is a GOOD REASON why they think that.
3.) You asked me what can be done to change these people's mind. I'm telling you: don't make it about yourself.

1.) i would because you just said somethign TOTALLY different. I didnt mention an excuse to do nothing you added that part on. IN fact i pointed out words alone would be wrong many times. we are currently talking about the fact there is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"
2.) I agree. thats not what im talking about though. again im talking about the fact there is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"
3.) and i agreed with that. that statment dont all is not making about oneself ive already given factual examples of that.

YOU dont like the saying and thats fine but it doesnt make it a bad saying or bad to say.
 
1.) i would because you just said somethign TOTALLY different. I didnt mention an excuse to do nothing you added that part on. IN fact i pointed out words alone would be wrong many times. we are currently talking about the fact there is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"
2.) I agree. thats not what im talking about though. again im talking about the fact there is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"
3.) and i agreed with that. that statment dont all is not making about oneself ive already given factual examples of that.

YOU dont like the saying and thats fine but it doesnt make it a bad saying or bad to say.

I just gave you an example of someone from 60 years ago who made the exact same point I'm making. This isn't just me, and it isn't new.

I understand their perception isn't what you mean, but you need to understand traumatized people might take it as too much of a risk to take on you. You can continue on about how that isn't "fair" but telling people with PTSD that their disorder isn't being "fair" to you is, well... sort of self-centered.

So if you want to be SUCCESSFUL in helping a traumatized person to change their prejudices, you need to understand it's about what they HEAR. And I'm telling you what they hear, and why they hear it, and why it makes perfectly good sense.
 
So until very recently you just dont really know anything about american culture history, society, lifestyles, laws and policies in general. That would explain alot. Thank you.
So an American born and raised in Canada, who loved and studied America since as young as he can remember, paid taxes even when abroad, even tried to join the American military when 18 but was refused due to his Canadian-ness can't have as strong understanding of American culture history, society, lifestyles, laws and policies in general in comparison to those naive born and raised...alright noted? :lol:
 
1.)I just gave you an example of someone from 60 years ago who made the exact same point I'm making. This isn't just me, and it isn't new.
2.)I understand their perception isn't what you mean, but you need to understand traumatized people might take it as too much of a risk to take on you. You can continue on about how that isn't "fair" but telling people with PTSD that their disorder isn't being "fair" to you is, well... sort of self-centered.
3.) So if you want to be SUCCESSFUL in helping a traumatized person to change their prejudices, you need to understand it's about what they HEAR. And I'm telling you what they hear, and why they hear it, and why it makes perfectly good sense.

1.) but you did not. You added to it "an excuse to not do something" thats not being discussed by us and i condemn people not doing anything else.
2.) Sorry i have no idea why you are saying this because it has nothign to do with our current discussion. Who is telling people their diorder isnt fair? Because i agree that would be wrong.
3.) actually you are telling me what YOU hear and why YOU hear it but now im totally lost. are you saying your privileges statment is not true? You said earlier "They are going to take your actions more seriously than any statement you could ever make."
Now you seem to be contradicting that?

Before we get off track my only point it this and I already said it:

"at the end of the day I can give guidance, state the truth and show people I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and roll up my sleeves and act also."
so theres is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"
 
So an American born and raised in Canada, who loved and studied America since as young as he can remember, paid taxes even when abroad, even tried to join the American military when 18 but was refused due to his Canadian-ness can't have as strong understanding of American culture history, society, lifestyles, laws and policies in general in comparison to those naive born and raised...alright noted? :lol:

I didn't say that at all. I said it doesn't seem that YOU do in anyway. Reading the post you suggested I have doubts your story is true. Now of course it very well maybe be but that just makes it worse if its true and those are your views.
 
1.) but you did not. You added to it "an excuse to not do something" thats not being discussed by us and i condemn people not doing anything else.
2.) Sorry i have no idea why you are saying this because it has nothign to do with our current discussion. Who is telling people their diorder isnt fair? Because i agree that would be wrong.
3.) actually you are telling me what YOU hear and why YOU hear it but now im totally lost. are you saying your privileges statment is not true? You said earlier "They are going to take your actions more seriously than any statement you could ever make."
Now you seem to be contradicting that?

Before we get off track my only point it this and I already said it:

"at the end of the day I can give guidance, state the truth and show people I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and roll up my sleeves and act also."
so theres is nothign inherently wrong with saying "not all"

1. But they don't know that if they've just met you. And it's not worth the risk of finding out, to them.

2. You are. You're saying that these people SHOULDN'T hear that statement as a sign of risk. But the reason they do is because they're traumatized. And you're saying that isn't fair to you. Well, they can't just turn off their PTSD to be fair to you. It's not reasonable to expect them to.

3. What's wrong with it is that it isn't effective. I explained why it's not effective, and why it's understandable that traumatized people are distrustful of it.
 
1. But they don't know that if they've just met you. And it's not worth the risk of finding out, to them.
2.) You are. You're saying that these people SHOULDN'T hear that statement as a sign of risk. But the reason they do is because they're traumatized.
3.) And you're saying that isn't fair to you. Well, they can't just turn off their PTSD to be fair to you. It's not reasonable to expect them to.
4.) What's wrong with it is that it isn't effective. I explained why it's not effective, and why it's understandable that traumatized people are distrustful of it.

1.) thats true no matter what is said and what action will happen in the future.
2.) no i did not in anyway what so ever, in fact i can go back and qoute myself saying its fine you take caution and protect yourself and thats smart . .i said it probably about 5-6 times. Would you like me to qoute those?
3.) this i never said on any level at all. Are you reading what I actually wrote? because i would love for you to show me where the confusion is and qoute me saying what you assumed mean that so i can show it does not and not make the mistake in the future.
4.) you mean its not effective for YOU and you explain why its not effective for YOU and why YOU are distrustful of it. You haven't showed anything more. I have showed that it was effective for others and they were fine with it. I also explained how ANY comment could have the effect that one does on you to others and they cant be defined like that.
 
I didn't say that at all. I said it doesn't seem that YOU do in anyway.
I can respect if it seems I don't and that impression makes more sense due to my country of upbringing, not what I read, my mistake.

Reading the post you suggested I have doubts your story is true. Now of course it very well maybe be but that just makes it worse if its true and those are your views.
What parts curiously?
 
I can respect if it seems I don't and that impression makes more sense due to my country of upbringing, not what I read, my mistake.


What parts curiously?

the shorter list would be what did not make me think that. From start to finish i kept think this guy is foreign or young and extremely topically ignorant/naive (with a possibly of any of those combined with seclusion/lack of exposure)
 
1.) thats true no matter what is said and what action will happen in the future.
2.) no i did not in anyway what so ever, in fact i can go back and qoute myself saying its fine you take caution and protect yourself and thats smart . .i said it probably about 5-6 times. Would you like me to qoute those?
3.) this i never said on any level at all. Are you reading what I actually wrote? because i would love for you to show me where the confusion is and qoute me saying what you assumed mean that so i can show it does not and not make the mistake in the future.
4.) you mean its not effective for YOU and you explain why its not effective for YOU and why YOU are distrustful of it. You haven't showed anything more. I have showed that it was effective for others and they were fine with it. I also explained how ANY comment could have the effect that one does on you to others and they cant be defined like that.

Well, like I said, it really isn't just me. People talking about systemic violence have been saying this for decades, that we need to stay away from stuff that can look like it's making it about us.

I won't discount the possibility that you got lucky (and also, people who already have support are less likely to develop traumatic responses, even after repeated violence -- so there's that too). But... this is a common thing. And if you run into someone who is probably socially traumatized, it couldn't possibly hurt to avoid that.
 
the shorter list would be what did not make me think that. From start to finish i kept think this guy is foreign or young and extremely topically ignorant/naive (with a possibly of any of those combined with seclusion/lack of exposure)
:lol: Interesting considering how opposite it is from the truth. I am intrigued though, specifically what type of foreign? How young were you guessing? Also I wonder was it my language structure or what you viewed as simplified arguments? ...my dyslexic coping has produced an odd written form often classified "colloquial" by English professors. I'd be curious how much that comes into play.
 
1.)Well, like I said, it really isn't just me. People talking about systemic violence have been saying this for decades, that we need to stay away from stuff that can look like it's making it about us.
2.) I won't discount the possibility that you got lucky (and also, people who already have support are less likely to develop traumatic responses, even after repeated violence -- so there's that too). But... this is a common thing. And if you run into someone who is probably socially traumatized, it couldn't possibly hurt to avoid that.

1.) and i agree with that
2.) what is a common thing? Not liking facts? I'm honestly asking becuase how does one avoid that.

YOU do not like the "not all" saying it bothers YOU and that fine. I get it.
But it did not bother me, my dad or my grandfather it helped us all.

So whats the alternative. What if there was a saying that helped you but bothered others?

You said early YOU like when a person listens and asks why. Or they can say "call me if you are ever in trouble" Maybe some other person doesn't like that, maybe everytime a person asked them why that person just did it as a setup to further mock them, insult them or use that info against them? Or everytime a person said they that person never came.

My point is what I said I do is already a good approach. I can not plan for what may trigger a response in every person especially if its facts. The statment "not all" is still not inherently wrong or bad along with 100s of other statements and i could possible begin to know what effects who. Along with my words I can only show them im willing to help, the rest is on them.
 
That’s still a measure of perception rather than (necessarily) fact, pretty much just an average of the two groups. It could still be inaccurate if everyone is overestimating or underestimating discrimination against those categories and that’s still assuming everyone is working from the same definitions of “discrimination” and “a lot”. You can certainly ask why the two groups appear to have such significantly different perceptions but you can’t contrast any of them with reality unless you present some actual reality. :cool:

The perceptions of a cross section of all Americans is the reality when it comes to how we perceive discrimination. And, when measured against that standard, the Republicans are out of sync. Way out of sync.
 
1.):lol: Interesting considering how opposite it is from the truth.
2.) I am intrigued though, specifically what type of foreign? How young were you guessing?
3.) Also I wonder was it my language structure
4.) or what you viewed as simplified arguments?
5.) ...my dyslexic coping has produced an odd written form often classified "colloquial" by English professors. I'd be curious how much that comes into play.

1.) theres no evidence of that yet
2.) ??? uhm i never thought about what country, why would i? it wouldnt matter.
3.) i almost never judge peoples language wording and English here unless it was something really bad and obvious. Mine most times is terrible because i simply dont care because its a message board.
3.) i didnt think you actually presented any "arguments", none valid, realistic and logical anyway.
5.) it doesnt for me, at least not here
 
1.) and i agree with that
2.) what is a common thing? Not liking facts? I'm honestly asking becuase how does one avoid that.

YOU do not like the "not all" saying it bothers YOU and that fine. I get it.
But it did not bother me, my dad or my grandfather it helped us all.

So whats the alternative. What if there was a saying that helped you but bothered others?

You said early YOU like when a person listens and asks why. Or they can say "call me if you are ever in trouble" Maybe some other person doesn't like that, maybe everytime a person asked them why that person just did it as a setup to further mock them, insult them or use that info against them? Or everytime a person said they that person never came.

My point is what I said I do is already a good approach. I can not plan for what may trigger a response in every person especially if its facts. The statment "not all" is still not inherently wrong or bad along with 100s of other statements and i could possible begin to know what effects who. Along with my words I can only show them im willing to help, the rest is on them.

I've told you what the alternative is: just setting that aside, being supportive, and time.

You can say that all you want, but it won't change that marginalized people have been hearing it that way for a very long time, because, like it or not, it HAS been a common tactic to avoid action. It's not some unheard of thing, like being triggered by wallpaper. It's a common suspicion, usually informed by years of experience.
 
The perceptions of a cross section of all Americans is the reality when it comes to how we perceive discrimination. And, when measured against that standard, the Republicans are out of sync. Way out of sync.
What? But literally aren't those the averages of the the two sides plus independents who likely fall in the middle. So why is the lower out of sync but not the higher? :confused:
 
1.)I've told you what the alternative is: just setting that aside, being supportive, and time.
2.)You can say that all you want, but it won't change that marginalized people have been hearing it that way for a very long time, because, like it or not, it HAS been a common tactic to avoid action. It's not some unheard of thing, like being triggered by wallpaper.
3.) It's a common suspicion, usually informed by years of experience.

1.) setting what aside, thats my point.
2.) who said it changes anything? i just pointed out the fact that its not inherently bad and many people, like other true statements, arent bother by it at all and in fact helped by it.
3.) so could anything trigger that. My point is theres no solution unless people just dont talk. ANYTHING said could be a trigger :shrug: Thats no reason to avoid talking or truths.
 
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