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The Civil War was about economics

The difference between you and me is I think those who living in any particular community should be able to decide on their own what statues, monuments or anything else they have. If a black community wants a bronze statue showing a black man with his arms raised in victory standing with one foot on top of a white guy laying on the ground, why shouldn't they have it? Don't we have freedom of speech and expression? I am of the old school, I believe in that old adage, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it." You seem to want a muzzle, once you muzzle whomever for what you deem offensive or intolerant, it becomes a very slippery slope.

If Charlottesville or Lexington or New Orleans or where ever want a statue of Robert E. Lee, fine. If those cities want to take them down, fine. I have no problem with either one as long as it is the residence of, those living in the community decide that on their own without, I repeat, without any outside influence, pressure or anything else. Me living in Georgia shouldn't be able to tell someone living in Colorado, New York, South Carolina or anywhere else what statues or monuments they can or should, can't or shouldn't have.

The problem we have today is people living a hundred, a thousand miles away think they know what is best for a community they probably never been to. That they can force any community to their wants. No regard for what a community wants or wishes. Hence my reference to the Taliban.

So if a certain state wanted to keep a small minority of its citizens from voting because of their religion or skin color, would that be OK too? After all, it is a local community deciding what it wants to do. Right?
 
Traitors during WWII

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Traitors during Vietnam

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Traitors in Iraq and Afghanistan

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Did you know that roughly 40% of the Untied States all Volunteer Military come from the traitorous south. More than any other region of this nation. That we fought and fight for you to be able to call us traitors. My grandson did in Afghanistan, Me in Vietnam and Laos, my dad in the Pacific in WWII, my grandpa in France in WWI and my great grandpa in the Spanish and American War. Enjoy your freedom compliments of us traitors.

The south needs to find a new symbol. There is nothing wrong with the south per se. But they need to understand they are no longer the confederacy in war with the union.
 
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Traitors during WWII

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Traitors during Vietnam

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View attachment 67221709

Traitors in Iraq and Afghanistan

View attachment 67221710

Did you know that roughly 40% of the Untied States all Volunteer Military come from the traitorous south. More than any other region of this nation. That we fought and fight for you to be able to call us traitors. My grandson did in Afghanistan, Me in Vietnam and Laos, my dad in the Pacific in WWII, my grandpa in France in WWI and my great grandpa in the Spanish and American War. Enjoy your freedom compliments of us traitors.

So, you're attacking some weird straw man that everyone from the south is being called a traitor. Why are you doing that?
 
So if a certain state wanted to keep a small minority of its citizens from voting because of their religion or skin color, would that be OK too? After all, it is a local community deciding what it wants to do. Right?

Apples and Oranges. First Amendment applies to one, freedom and speech and expression. For the other you have the amendments. Keep it constitutional.
 
I see. So it would be OK for me to creepily walk around your kids elementary school all day with a large military assault weapon on my shoulder, and ramble on all day about how pedophilia is suppressed in this country- just because of my First and Second Amendment rights. I see. I will keep that in mind.
 
The south needs to find a new symbol. There is nothing wrong with the south per se. But they need to understand they are no longer the confederacy in war with the union.

In our mind, the war ended in 1865. That flag stands for being southern born and breed and 100% American. Trying to destroy it is being anti American and anti first amendment. Only recently has there been a problem with it. That war has been over for 152 years. It's in the history books. No need to destroy history. Perhaps it's you guys that need to get over the civil war.

We have or most of us have. You do have some idiots out there, but your always going to have your 10%. Strange how we can fight for your freedoms and in the process have you try to destroy our symbols. I don't give a darn about any statue, let where ever that statue is decide its fate. But what right do you have in telling me what I have to do with my confederate battle flag? Doesn't the first amendment cover that flag?
 
Look who's saying other people's opinions don't matter. We're right back where we started, only your opinion matters, mine doesn't because you think mine is wrong and yours is right. So be it.

No that's not what i'm saying.

When i choose symbols to represent who i am, i try to extend some consideration to how other people might reasonably interpret those symbols.

I suppose what i'm getting at is that my views of what constitutes "reasonably" (in this context) are relatively broad, while someone else might have views on "reasonably" that are relatively narrow.

I'm not saying your views don't matter. What i'm saying is that considering the superset of all views, a broad scope, becomes very limiting in terms of what behavior is acceptable by that broad scope. I can appreciate that you might not seek to try as hard as i do to be considerate, and i'm okay with that. But it is true that you aren't necessarily concerned if other people find it offensive, correct? I suppose i'd like to understand how you evaluate which concerns are legitimate.
 
So, you're attacking some weird straw man that everyone from the south is being called a traitor. Why are you doing that?

That is what one of the posters said or implied. That because I have a confederate battle flag encased in glass on my wall I am a traitor. Me and others as the pictures show, fought for this nation and I suppose the right for others to call us traitors. So if a flag, the confederate flag makes us traitors, so be it. I guess we also fought for those who burn the American flag and their right to do so. To protest and rant and rave about statues and monuments. I guess we have been pretty successful.

I should take it as a compliment. Perhaps I will. Jeff Foxworthy made being called a red neck a term of endearment and one we are proud to wear. Might as well be traitors too.

You might be a redneck if you think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.
You might be a redneck if you think the stock market has a fence around it
You might be a redneck if you think a subdivision is part of a math problem

You gotta love Jeff Foxworthy
 
In our mind, the war ended in 1865. That flag stands for being southern born and breed and 100% American. Trying to destroy it is being anti American and anti first amendment. Only recently has there been a problem with it. That war has been over for 152 years. It's in the history books. No need to destroy history. Perhaps it's you guys that need to get over the civil war.

Think about this: If you were an African American during the Civil War, what's the difference to you between the Confederacy and the Nazis we know today? Both groups believe in White Supremacy. The Nazis Aryan supremacy and Confederacy White supremacy. They both believed it was wrong to breed with inferior races and made it illegal. They both threw the inferior races into forced labor camps.

Have you ever considered that maybe if your ancestors were forced to work in plantations for generations maybe you would feel differently?

No need to erase history. Leave history in the museums. The statues we honor are about the history we want to honor today. And our view of history changes with time. Our statues change over time. That's the way it should be.
 
That is what one of the posters said or implied. That because I have a confederate battle flag encased in glass on my wall I am a traitor. Me and others as the pictures show, fought for this nation and I suppose the right for others to call us traitors. So if a flag, the confederate flag makes us traitors, so be it. I guess we also fought for those who burn the American flag and their right to do so. To protest and rant and rave about statues and monuments. I guess we have been pretty successful.

I should take it as a compliment. Perhaps I will. Jeff Foxworthy made being called a red neck a term of endearment and one we are proud to wear. Might as well be traitors too.

You might be a redneck if you think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.
You might be a redneck if you think the stock market has a fence around it
You might be a redneck if you think a subdivision is part of a math problem

You gotta love Jeff Foxworthy

Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

You of all people could and should never be called a traitor! People who could even think such a thing just don't know you very well, IMO! :thumbdown: Your time in the military speaks for itself, and I thank you for your service! *BIG HUG*

And as a person who so enjoyed reading your "redneck" jokes in the past, I hope you might be willing to start posting them again from time to time! With all that's happening in the world today, we need to laugh more to offset all the negativity we're being bombarded with every day! Pleeeeese? :mrgreen:
 
That is what one of the posters said or implied. That because I have a confederate battle flag encased in glass on my wall I am a traitor. Me and others as the pictures show, fought for this nation and I suppose the right for others to call us traitors. So if a flag, the confederate flag makes us traitors, so be it. I guess we also fought for those who burn the American flag and their right to do so. To protest and rant and rave about statues and monuments. I guess we have been pretty successful.

I should take it as a compliment. Perhaps I will. Jeff Foxworthy made being called a red neck a term of endearment and one we are proud to wear. Might as well be traitors too.

You might be a redneck if you think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.
You might be a redneck if you think the stock market has a fence around it
You might be a redneck if you think a subdivision is part of a math problem

You gotta love Jeff Foxworthy

It's a symbol of an enemy nation. Is there a reason you have enshrined the flag of an enemy nation?
 
No that's not what i'm saying.

When i choose symbols to represent who i am, i try to extend some consideration to how other people might reasonably interpret those symbols.

I suppose what i'm getting at is that my views of what constitutes "reasonably" (in this context) are relatively broad, while someone else might have views on "reasonably" that are relatively narrow.

I'm not saying your views don't matter. What i'm saying is that considering the superset of all views, a broad scope, becomes very limiting in terms of what behavior is acceptable by that broad scope. I can appreciate that you might not seek to try as hard as i do to be considerate, and i'm okay with that. But it is true that you aren't necessarily concerned if other people find it offensive, correct? I suppose i'd like to understand how you evaluate which concerns are legitimate.

What I find offensive is others trying to force their views and beliefs on me or whomever because they think what I have or do is offensive to them. No one has had a problem with the confederate flag until recently. Matter of fact as I stated more than a few times back in the 60's, the rebel flag was a symbol of rebellion against those in authority and was basically adopted by the don't trust anyone over 30 crowd. Now all of a sudden we have a new generation, what I call the me generation, that now has a problem with it. What the heck?

Letting a community decide whether or not to keep a statue, any statue, Robert E. Lee or Genghis Kahn or whomever is very constitutional and first amendment wise. Should I try to tell a community what statue they can have or can't have, no. Doing so would be tantamount of tossing free speech and expression out the window.
 
Sorry, but if a person today in the U.S.A. compares themselves to an actual chattel slave, who was denied practically every human and civil right known to man...you're a crackpot.

So you know really nothing about slavery.....
 
Think about this: If you were an African American during the Civil War, what's the difference to you between the Confederacy and the Nazis we know today? Both groups believe in White Supremacy. The Nazis Aryan supremacy and Confederacy White supremacy. They both believed it was wrong to breed with inferior races and made it illegal. They both threw the inferior races into forced labor camps.

Have you ever considered that maybe if your ancestors were forced to work in plantations for generations maybe you would feel differently?

No need to erase history. Leave history in the museums. The statues we honor are about the history we want to honor today. And our view of history changes with time. Our statues change over time. That's the way it should be.

The Nazi's were defeated during WWII and those of us southerners who carried the confederate battle flag helped defeated them. WWII, here are the pictures again of my dad's generation helping defeat the NAZI's.

1 confederate WWII 3.jpg

1 confederate WWII.jpg

It was good enough then, but no more. It's like you can use us to defend this nation and put our lives on the line, but when it comes to maintaining a symbol dear to us, you tell us to go to Hades. That is your prerogative I suppose. Part of what we fought for was freedom of speech and expression. Your free to tell us all to go to Hades, we helped make sure of that.
 
The Nazi's were defeated during WWII and those of us southerners who carried the confederate battle flag helped defeated them. WWII, here are the pictures again of my dad's generation helping defeat the NAZI's.

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It was good enough then, but no more. It's like you can use us to defend this nation and put our lives on the line, but when it comes to maintaining a symbol dear to us, you tell us to go to Hades. That is your prerogative I suppose. Part of what we fought for was freedom of speech and expression. Your free to tell us all to go to Hades, we helped make sure of that.

Don't forget: the United States went to war againist the racist nazi regime, yet we went to war with a segregated armed forces.
 
Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

You of all people could and should never be called a traitor! People who could even think such a thing just don't know you very well, IMO! :thumbdown: Your time in the military speaks for itself, and I thank you for your service! *BIG HUG*

And as a person who so enjoyed reading your "redneck" jokes in the past, I hope you might be willing to start posting them again from time to time! With all that's happening in the world today, we need to laugh more to offset all the negativity we're being bombarded with every day! Pleeeeese? :mrgreen:

what I did, I did. No big thing. I said many times that I do this for entertainment and when I start to get mad, its time for me to quite and take a break. I should have followed that. I think way too many people make up their minds about people via general characterizations. I don't know if I told you, I probably have, but that confederate flag on my wall in glass was first taken by my great grandpa with him in the Spanish-American War. My grandpa took it with him to France in WWI and my dad had it with him in the Pacific during WWII. Myself, it was with me in Laos and Vietnam when I served their and on the East German Border when I was stationed with the 11th ACR in Fulda. My grandson took it with him to Afghanistan with the 1st ID.

That flag means a lot to me, but because I have it, today I get brandied by all sorts of names. What I can't understand is why we just can't let the people decide who are the ones involved in any one particular community. If they don't like a statue or monument, take it down. If they like it, keep it. Trust the people.

Why other must force their views and beliefs on others is beyond me. That's not what I fought for and neither my family.
 
It's a symbol of an enemy nation. Is there a reason you have enshrined the flag of an enemy nation?

See post number 141. I think one should place historical events in the time and place they happened. Back in 1860 very few folks thought of themselves as Americans. They were New Yorkers, Virginians, Georgians, Ohioans etc. More loyalty was given to their state than to the nation as a whole. Of course when a state seceded, most in that state would fight to defend the state whichever one they were from.

It wasn't until the Spanish-American War that we started to think of ourselves as Americans and not Pennsylvanians, Alabamans etc. Defending their state was of utmost importance. Most Southerners never owned slaves, 90% of those who fought didn't own slaves. Only the rich plantations folks did.
 
what I did, I did. No big thing. I said many times that I do this for entertainment and when I start to get mad, its time for me to quite and take a break. I should have followed that. I think way too many people make up their minds about people via general characterizations. I don't know if I told you, I probably have, but that confederate flag on my wall in glass was first taken by my great grandpa with him in the Spanish-American War. My grandpa took it with him to France in WWI and my dad had it with him in the Pacific during WWII. Myself, it was with me in Laos and Vietnam when I served their and on the East German Border when I was stationed with the 11th ACR in Fulda. My grandson took it with him to Afghanistan with the 1st ID.

That flag means a lot to me, but because I have it, today I get brandied by all sorts of names. What I can't understand is why we just can't let the people decide who are the ones involved in any one particular community. If they don't like a statue or monument, take it down. If they like it, keep it. Trust the people.

...............


Well said, my friend! :thumbs: And no, although I knew of your service, I was not aware of the family history behind that flag until now! :bravo:
 
Fantome said:
The Civil War was about economics.

Hmmmm...correct. But incomplete, in roughly the same way it's incomplete to claim that the assassination of JFK was about missile ballistics. Slaves provide cheap (albeit not quite free) labor, and when an economy built on slavery no longer has that resource, of course it has a negative economic impact for the former masters.

Fantome said:
Slaves were not only a labor force they were the primary asset of plantations along with land. Cotton growers used their assets, slaves, as collateral in the same way as industrialists used their equipment and property. This was how the system worked. Slaves were assets worth tens of millions of dollars.

When slavery was deemed unacceptable the Southern Plantation owners and slave traders were expected to forfeit their assets without any remuneration from the Northern states for that loss.

Again, correct, but incomplete. Provided you ignore the fact that human beings cannot be property, and cannot be property assets, then your explanation may make some sense. But of course you cannot ignore what is the single most outstanding fact of the situation--one group of economic elites pretended to own a great many other human beings, and treated them with great brutality. The economic consequences of putting a stop to slavery are entirely immaterial, because incommensurable with the paramount point. Keeping that in mind, your explanation becomes disgusting, resembling in many respects the slick propaganda of totalitarian regimes. What you write reminds me of the kind of stuff Joseph Goebbels cranked out about the Jews.

Fantome said:
The North had a plan to get even richer off the end of slavery.

Who had this plan? The entire North?
 
Those who readily acquit the Northern State Industrialists who amassed immense wealth along with all their customers and vendors who enjoyed the benefits derived from slave labor while assigning 100% of the guilt for the Economy of Slavery this country used for centuries need to listen to your selves and wake theup and smell the coffee.

The ships who brought the slaves to America were owned and the enterprises operated not by Plantation owners but by shipping companies and financiers in New York. I never hear you label any of those long dead souls as racist monsters.

The textile industries in New England depended on the cotton from the south but those fat cats are never cast as the devils they truly were.

So you think the plantation owners should have committed economic suicide when they bore the entire financial burden of restructuring the economy the North had helped perpetuate but then refused to absorb any of the losses? And you want to cast every southerner then and now as wicked racists because it makes you feel superior and better than them.

That is the most disgusting part of it.

People seem to need to feel superior to someone and misrepresenting history to demonize an entire region is the game so many are playing.
 
...

People seem to need to feel superior to someone and misrepresenting history to demonize an entire region is the game so many are playing.
You probably don't see the irony of this as you defend a system of human bondage that was literally built on White SUPREMACY, and who fought one of the bloodiest wars in history to protect and expand it.
 
You probably don't see the irony of this as you defend a system of human bondage that was literally built on White SUPREMACY, and who fought one of the bloodiest wars in history to protect and expand it.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Both of my feet are already in there.

Show me where I defended slavery? I never did. I said the North profited from slavery more than the South but were not held accountable in the same way and they should have been and should be today.

Slavery is wrong, wrong, wrong but in ante-bellum times it was a reality plantation owners could not bear the full burden of the economic cost of ending. The North should have made concessions to help pay that burden.

Please don't twist my words. I never defended slavery. I pointed out the South was not alone in profiting from slavery.

African war lords who captured the slaves profited. Slave traders profited. Shipping companies profited. Financiers profited. Industrialists profited. Vendors profited. Consumers profited. But on the South is punished and vilified. I call b*llsh*t on that tactic.
 
What I find offensive is others trying to force their views and beliefs on me or whomever because they think what I have or do is offensive to them.

You find it offensive that some people are offended by symbols that have historic representation to slavery? Why? If you don't care whether they find it offensive, i would expect indifference. If you're allowed to express the flag, they're allowed to express criticism of the flag.

No one has had a problem with the confederate flag until recently. Matter of fact as I stated more than a few times back in the 60's, the rebel flag was a symbol of rebellion against those in authority and was basically adopted by the don't trust anyone over 30 crowd. Now all of a sudden we have a new generation, what I call the me generation, that now has a problem with it. What the heck?

Despite the common belief that "the Confederate flag" has remained in uninterrupted use since the end of the Civil War, its use was mostly limited to historical movies, like Gone with the Wind. Its revival in the 1950s and 1960s was to show opposition to the Civil Rights Movement, starting with Senator Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrats in 1948. Racism played a major role in its new popularity.[4]

...

In Georgia, the Confederate battle flag was reintroduced as an element of the state flag in 1956, just two years after the Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education. It was considered by many to be a protest against school desegregation.[16] It was also raised at the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) during protests against integration of schools.[17]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_flag

I could accept its use in historical context. I never appreciated its proud use. I never understood it. I feel like you're not really acknowledging that it was a dead symbol, resurrected by Nazis and segregationists.

Something changed, but it wasn't what the flag stood for. As its adherents got more and more bold about pushing for its proliferation, its critics became more vocal as well. Now the opposition is well-mobilized, and their explanation has deep, objective historical account.

Letting a community decide whether or not to keep a statue, any statue, Robert E. Lee or Genghis Kahn or whomever is very constitutional and first amendment wise. Should I try to tell a community what statue they can have or can't have, no. Doing so would be tantamount of tossing free speech and expression out the window.

I agree. The affected communities should make the decisions for themselves.
 
Anyone who needs several hundred great documents on this point should contact paperview, the leading expert on the Civil War and its causes.

:lamo
 
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