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They are coming down

Winchester said:
I didn't even know our state had a monument until a few days ago.
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not sure what your state is but the idea of confederate monuments in Montana and California is bizarre.
 
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katzgar said:
not sure what you state is but the idea of confederate monuments in Montana and California is bizarre.
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Yeah, Montana. It is weird, apparently the United Daughters of the Confederacy put it up in 1916.
 
I am no fan of Confederate monuments, but there will be a backlash for this. The party of Lincoln will not see these statues as symbols of white superiority, but as a rallying point against Democrats.
 
Cardinal said:
I am no fan of Confederate monuments, but there will be a backlash for this. The party of Lincoln will not see these statues as symbols of white superiority, but as a rallying point against Democrats.
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When should this man's statue be taken down? Any timetable on that?

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

-Abraham Lincoln

Lincoln-Douglas Debates

September 18, 1858
 
sanman said:
When should this man's statue be taken down? Any timetable on that?

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

-Abraham Lincoln

Lincoln-Douglas Debates

September 18, 1858
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Why did you respond to me with that post?
 
Cardinal said:
I am no fan of Confederate monuments, but there will be a backlash for this. The party of Lincoln will not see these statues as symbols of white superiority, but as a rallying point against Democrats.
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you are confused the backlash goes way back. many on that map have been announced since charlottesville.
 
sanman said:
When should this man's statue be taken down? Any timetable on that?

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

-Abraham Lincoln

Lincoln-Douglas Debates

September 18, 1858
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your post is dishonest. he changed his position later in life didnt he.
 
katzgar said:
you are confused the backlash goes way back. many on that map have been announced since charlottesville.
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I don't know how that's relevant. The fact of the matter is that the monuments' removal is extremely high profile right now.
 
Cardinal said:
I am no fan of Confederate monuments, but there will be a backlash for this. The party of Lincoln will not see these statues as symbols of white superiority, but as a rallying point against Democrats.
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Charlottesville was a lesson. If you take your time, people will die. Do it quickly and quietly before an opposition can be mounted.
 
katzgar said:
your post is dishonest. he changed his position later in life didnt he.
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The victors write the history books - and you're dishonest to not see that.

Trump got criticized for taking 48 hours - but Lincoln gets to change "later in life"?
 
CriticalThought said:
Charlottesville was a lesson. If you take your time, people will die. Do it quickly and quietly before an opposition can be mounted.
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There's a political angle and (for lack of a better word) a moral angle.

The moral angle is relatively simple to me: these monuments represent a struggle to maintain the right to own other human beings. For that reason alone, idolizing these monuments and statues of their generals is obscene.

The political angle is never black and white, made more complicated by the fact that it's always ethically dubious to prioritize political gains over moral ones. After all, would it be reasonable to argue that it wasn't "the right political time" to give women the right to vote, black people the right to eat at any restaurant they can afford, and gays the right to marry? Nonetheless, the political angle can't be discounted altogether. There are several problems with making the monuments such a high profile issue, politically speaking:

1)The culture war: the monuments becomes a rallying point for conservatives.
2)As a result, conservatives who aren't even racist themselves are pushed into the same corner as White Supremacists due to simple tribalism. Therefore, Democrats are the enemy and not the White Supremacists in their midsts.
3)Trump won partly on his resistance to "political correctness." The monuments and White Supremacist issue may rise well above a simple matter of political correctness for you and me, but to Republicans this is exactly the kind of PC issue that Trump rode to power on.
4)To Republicans, this is not a "substance" issue. A substance issue is national policy that affects their livelihoods directly. This includes healthcare and jobs.
5)As a result of all of this, Republicans become enthusiastic rather than depressed voters in 2018. If you need a reminder of what it means to be a depressed or enthusiastic voter, just look at the difference between Hillary and Donald voters in 2016, and the impact that had on the election. There are many reasons Clinton lost, some legitimate, some entirely illegitimate, but depressed Democratic turnout and energized Republican turnout was absolutely one of them. While I don't believe that Democratic turnout in 2018 and 2020 would be equally depressed, it's simply not smart to hand Republican voters a reason to be energized.

Now, this is not to say that it won't ultimately be the right call to demand these monuments come down. But that's not to say the above points shouldn't be taken into consideration either. After all, right now, Trump's approval has risen nearly a full percentage point since Saturday, and his disapproval is likewise dropping like a rock.

Of course, one could also make the argument that in lieu of 68% of Republicans approving of how he responded to Charlottesville, Democrats might be justified to conclude, "**** it, these people are in the stone age, we're moving on with or without them."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/poll-trump-charlottesville-response-241730
 
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sanman said:
The victors write the history books - and you're dishonest to not see that.

Trump got criticized for taking 48 hours - but Lincoln gets to change "later in life"?
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Yep it sure does
 
MaggieD said:
Waiting for the Confederate monument in Arlington National Cemetery to come down. And their bodies dug up.

Erasing history. We all know where that leads, right?

And would someone please tell me why the cops are allowing this vandalism??
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Obviously nobody's erasing history you're just making crap up
 
katzgar said:
your post is dishonest. he changed his position later in life didnt he.
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No and it places monuments honoring Lincoln in a grey area. He was morally opposed to slavery but he was also opposed to a multi-racial society and definitely a racist. What do you do with a man who signed the emancipation proclamation only to promote and implement resettlement policies?
 
MaggieD said:
Waiting for the Confederate monument in Arlington National Cemetery to come down. And their bodies dug up.

Erasing history. We all know where that leads, right?

And would someone please tell me why the cops are allowing this vandalism??
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They did arrest and charge the hate filled poor excuse for a woman who tore down the NC monument. Hope she is found guilt of the felony charge and spends many many years behind bars for her criminal activity.
 
Napoleon said:
No and it places monuments honoring Lincoln in a grey area. He was morally opposed to slavery but he was also opposed to a multi-racial society and definitely a racist. What do you do with a man who signed the emancipation proclamation only to promote and implement resettlement policies?
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Duh you rewrite history to say what you want about Lincoln.
 
MaggieD said:
Waiting for the Confederate monument in Arlington National Cemetery to come down. And their bodies dug up.

Erasing history. We all know where that leads, right?

And would someone please tell me why the cops are allowing this vandalism??
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We tore down the statues to many other disreputable characters. We still know about them because we have books and video.

And I believe an overwhelming majority of these monuments are being removed through legitimate processes.
 
Cardinal said:
We tore down the statues to many other disreputable characters. We still know about them because we have books and video.
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We already censor books in school...

If these people were disreputable, the south wouldn't have put up monuments to honor them. It's vandalism of the worst kind. And it's scarey.
 
Napoleon said:
No and it places monuments honoring Lincoln in a grey area. He was morally opposed to slavery but he was also opposed to a multi-racial society and definitely a racist. What do you do with a man who signed the emancipation proclamation only to promote and implement resettlement policies?
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Incorrect, you're just pushing more right-wing pretend world
 
katzgar said:
Incorrect, you're just pushing more right-wing pretend world
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There was nothing pretend about Lincoln's racism or resettlement policies. They're all a matter of public record.
 
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