500 "supremacists" estimated... and both sides engaged in violence...

rocket88 said:

That's fine, but why the rush from the right to defend them?

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I do not defend their ideology, nor defend who they are. I defend the facts. It's a fact that their demonstration was legally permitted and the city neglected to provide proper security and oversight over both the alt-right demonstrators and antifa counter protesters. Both of these groups have repeatedly committed violence in the past. There is no defense necessary and if anyone in the media puts sole blame on the alt-right demonstrators, then they are sympathizing with the violent tactics used by antifa and left wing groups, and are ignoring the responsibility of the city in this specific issue.

If you want to blame the alt-right for being violent, that's absolutely accurate, and there is nothing to defend, but if you want to go a step further than that then facts must be stated. One cannot be against the nazis, and be for the violent tactics used by antifa and remain consistent.

Some people are apparently taking the attitude of "if you didn't come out immediately from the get-go in 100% agreement with me, you're a Nazi."


Trump is a Nazi because he didn't immediately call for all the non-Left protesters to be burned at the stake, too. :roll:

phattonez said:

Israel has a Jewish ethnostate. They believe in Jewish nationalism. Are they Jewish supremacists?

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Many oppose Zionism. The knee-jerk reaction to that from the right is to scream "anti-semite!".

Goshin said:

My point was the way many people are acting as if we on the verge of a Nazi takeover of the gov't, and acting as if not counterprotesting such a march will leave the door open to some kind of Brownshirt Coup. Given the numbers they managed to scrape together by combining efforts of a dozen different groups, that seems improbable.

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I saw apdst and harryg mentioning antifa taking over a town or become "the regime in power" too. Pretty crazy stuff all around, I agree.

I think the real fear is that Trump has legitimized it to the point that it's growing more now than ever, they will be even more brazen, and most worrisome, Republicans are by virtue of Trump/Republican administration coupled with Bannon/alt-right, are cozying up to the dark side in a way that is bad for everyone. This was the same issue people worried about in the campaign, when he seemed to promote violence, when he told the police to rough up suspects, etc. The trend is wide, and deep, as far as Trump goes in supporting such things, it's hard to ignore. It's why Republicans in congress and Republican business leaders are rejecting him on this issue.

Secondly, that both sides engaged in violence IS relevant. One person on one side ESCALATED the LEVEL of violence to an extreme, but given how violent so many of these clashes have become that should be no real surprise to anyone... which leads back to my assertion that sensible people stay away from these kinds of events.

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But that's not why all the CEOs dropped Trump, or the Republicans in congress, and so much of the entire population scorned him. It was his behavior. Protest violence/escalation as a secondary issue (as related to the backlash on Trump) is important and interesting, but largely unrelated to why Trump is being crucified for his bad choices, yet again.

Obviously the death from the alt-right car driver, is a tragedy, but that's not Trump's fault..directly.

phattonez said:

Israel has a Jewish ethnostate. They believe in Jewish nationalism. Are they Jewish supremacists?

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Ask the Palestinians!

Goshin said:

Some people are apparently taking the attitude of "if you didn't come out immediately from the get-go in 100% agreement with me, you're a Nazi."
Trump is a Nazi because he didn't immediately call for all the non-Left protesters to be burned at the stake, too. :roll:

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Come on Goshin. Trump knew what he was doing, you knew what Trump was doing. He rolled the dice to side with the alt-right, and he's paying the political price for it.

Everyone came ready for violence. The guy who mowed down people in his car, how many people took out baseball bats to smash his car?

I'm not saying violent people were the majority, but the entitlement to violence is clear.

The Vice documentary (20 mins long) about the whole thing is interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

Check out the heat that the white supremacist leader was packing on that day. He said he was prepared to kill the commies.

There are people who are clearly feeling like verbal protesting isn't doing anything and they think violence is the answer.

The wheel of history turns once more.

Mach said:

I saw apdst and harryg mentioning antifa taking over a town or become "the regime in power" too. Pretty crazy stuff all around, I agree.

I think the real fear is that Trump has legitimized it to the point that it's growing more now than ever, they will be even more brazen, and most worrisome, Republicans are by virtue of Trump/Republican administration coupled with Bannon/alt-right, are cozying up to the dark side in a way that is bad for everyone. This was the same issue people worried about in the campaign, when he seemed to promote violence, when he told the police to rough up suspects, etc. The trend is wide, and deep, as far as Trump goes in supporting such things, it's hard to ignore. It's why Republicans in congress and Republican business leaders are rejecting him on this issue. But that's not why all the CEOs dropped Trump, or the Republicans in congress, and so much of the entire population scorned him. It was his behavior. Protest violence/escalation as a meta-issue, is important and interesting, but largely unrelated to why Trump is being crucified for his bad choices, yet again.

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Ok.

And Obama was to blame for all the BLM riots and police assassinations too. Right?


I'm going out for a beer. Anybody wanna come with that's fine, but no talking politics mmkay? Sports. Fishing. That crazy thing your kid did at supper last nite. But no politics.

Smartest move Yoda ever made was when he said "**** this ****" and flew off to Dagobah to live alone in a swamp.

RickJames3000 said:

Which one would you say you are more aligned with? (HINT: Feel no pressure to choose just one.)

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I'm closer to white nationalism, but I'm not a white nationalist. For instance, I don't want to purge blacks out of the US, or any citizens for that matter. I would like us to be more cohesive culturally. Our emphasis on multiculturalism is suicidal.

<alt>doxygen said:

Many oppose Zionism. The knee-jerk reaction to that from the right is to scream "anti-semite!".

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Of course much of that is fueled by the idea that any criticism of Jews is horrific anti-Semitism. Yet these same people find no problem with condemnation of other groups, say Russians.

Goshin said:

Ok.

And Obama was to blame for all the BLM riots and police assassinations too. Right?


I'm going out for a beer. Anybody wanna come with that's fine, but no talking politics mmkay? Sports. Fishing. That crazy thing your kid did at supper last nite. But no politics.

Smartest move Yoda ever made was when he said "**** this ****" and flew off to Dagobah to live alone in a swamp.

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Bring back monarchy, and none of us have to worry about politics. It's time.

Mach said:

Come on Goshin. Trump knew what he was doing, you knew what Trump was doing. He rolled the dice to side with the alt-right, and he's paying the political price for it.

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You are simply regurgitating the media propaganda line, which has no basis in fact. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

phattonez said:

Bring back monarchy, and none of us have to worry about politics. It's time.

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:roll:

rocket88 said:

So, I don't understand what you're getting at. There weren't that many of them, so it's ok?

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The "threat" presented by the Nazis is way, WAY less that it's being portrayed.

countryboy said:

You are simply regurgitating the media propaganda line, which has no basis in fact. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

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The idea that a person needs the media to interpret the stupidity of Trump's own words, is absurd countryboy.
But if you can't defend Trump, just attack me with baseless accusations, it's appropriate of you to do so. No really, its' good behavior, keep it up.

Mach said:

The idea that a person needs the media to interpret the stupidity of Trump's own words, is absurd countryboy.
But if you can't defend Trump, just attack me with baseless accusations, it's appropriate of you to do so. No really, its' good behavior, keep it up.

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Then explain to me how the President can denounce Nazis and white nationalists, in no uncertain terms, and that somehow means he supports them. G'head. How's that work exactly? Please be specific.

Goshin said:

The "alt-right" protesters were estimated to number 500 total.

This may be high. I've talked to people who say they never saw more than about 150 in any one place.

Doesn't sound like they have the numbers to take over the country any time soon.

Both sides initiated violence.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally





If five hundred is the best they can do, they're not much of a threat. Bear in mind this was many different groups, not all of them supremacist necessarily, and certainly far from united and organized... some of them can barely tolerate each other under normal circumstances.

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Only one side committed an act of terrorism. It came from the side that supports genocide

rocket88 said:

That's fine, but why the rush from the right to defend them?

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I don't see anyone defending THEM, just their right to gather and protest. Their narrative and beliefs are appalling and disgusting, but they have a right to believe what they want. That is ALL that is being defended. If someone is defending their beliefs or actions, that's a different story. Just haven't seen it here.

phattonez said:

I'm closer to white nationalism, but I'm not a white nationalist. For instance, I don't want to purge blacks out of the US, or any citizens for that matter. I would like us to be more cohesive culturally. Our emphasis on multiculturalism is suicidal.

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I think that ship has already sailed.

Goshin said:

The "alt-right" protesters were estimated to number 500 total.

This may be high. I've talked to people who say they never saw more than about 150 in any one place.

Doesn't sound like they have the numbers to take over the country any time soon.

Both sides initiated violence.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally





If five hundred is the best they can do, they're not much of a threat. Bear in mind this was many different groups, not all of them supremacist necessarily, and certainly far from united and organized... some of them can barely tolerate each other under normal circumstances.

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I stated from the beginning the reason for uniting different fringe groups in the first place is because any of them individually couldn't muster up a decent showing. The month before, July, the KKK went to Charlottesville, a few dozen, to protest the Robert E. Lee being taken down and they were met with a thousand protesters.

And yes both sides engaged in violence. But some don't want to recognize that fact.

vesper said:

I stated from the beginning the reason for uniting different fringe groups in the first place is because any of them individually couldn't muster up a decent showing. The month before, July, the KKK went to Charlottesville, a few dozen, to protest the Robert E. Lee being taken down and they were met with a thousand protesters.

And yes both sides engaged in violence. But some don't want to recognize that fact.

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One side also has a recent history of promoting violence, have for instance recently been seen claiming that violence from them is justified....I have not seen that from the immigration sceptics and victim culture sceptics.

Goshin said:

The "alt-right" protesters were estimated to number 500 total.

This may be high. I've talked to people who say they never saw more than about 150 in any one place.

Doesn't sound like they have the numbers to take over the country any time soon.

Both sides initiated violence.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally





If five hundred is the best they can do, they're not much of a threat. Bear in mind this was many different groups, not all of them supremacist necessarily, and certainly far from united and organized... some of them can barely tolerate each other under normal circumstances.

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What is the point in saying both sides were violent? Do you think that nazis marching and people counter protesting are morally equivalent?

Let me give my thoughts about this. I have lived in Europe including Hamburg, Germany, and I have seen neo nazi marches in Germany. It's very emotional. Also it is somewhat of a frequent occurrence, especially in April because that is Hitler's birthday. Germany has free speech, but it has restrictions in comparison to America. Displaying a nazi flag or symbol will automatically get you arrested, but in both countries nazis can march.

When you have that freedom of speech and nazis march, counter protesting is common. Counter protesting nazis is a moral duty for a lot of European and German people, especially for people who's parents, grandparents, and themselves survived nazi terror.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with counter protesting nazis. Secondly, nazi marching is going to flare anger and a lot of emotions. This is not Europe. This is America. America is probably the most diverse country in the entire world. There are a lot of people were who are going to get up in a roar about nazis including European immigrants. So keep that in mind and remember that cops show in European cities "to protect nazis."

That is what happens in Germany and Eastern Europe. Nazi marches could become common in America too.

I don't think we should start condemning counter protestors, and accusing them all of violence. Some of those counter protestors were prayer groups, Christian groups, and included people dressed in clergy robes. What America, as a country that believes in free speech, needs to do, is realize that cops and security have a duty to prevent violence and protect free speech in these situations. American cops should get out there, because nazi marches are no ****ing joke.

Lutherf said:

The "threat" presented by the Nazis is way, WAY less that it's being portrayed.

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There may be no threat of them taking over government, but they do threaten peace and freedom here.

rocket88 said:

There may be no threat of them taking over government, but they do threaten peace and freedom here.

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No they don't. Nazi groups have been around for half a century and outside of a couple of incidents over that time they have caused no significant disruption to the peace and prosperity of the nation.

Its all just dumb. Lets get back to the Russian story. Or maybe the ice cream story. In descending order of % of people who care 1) The media (all of them) 2) The internet (1/2 of them) 3) Normal people (not very many).