They're Coming For Mt. Rushmore

iguanaman · Aug 17, 2017

vesper said:
I am not trying to stop it but tell you that there are those on the left that will not be satisfied with just Confederate statues. They have made that perfectly clear.

And I mentioned earlier a statue of Lincoln in South Chicago was trashed today. It has been there for almost 100 years.

That is more likely a reprisal by some deplorables. I can't imagine who else would have a problem with Lincoln.

But you should not worry about our founders statues, they won't be taken down and should not be.

Absentglare · Aug 17, 2017

chuckiechan said:
It's not a cities function to set up cage matches between groups you give permits to and those you don't, just to see who beats the most **** out of the other. Are you daft?

The city didn't set it up.

You didn't answer my question. What right do you have to dictate what statues other people build to glorify as heroes?

Tigerace117 · Aug 18, 2017

eohrnberger said:
No, it's not the South, but the misguided SJW's apparently in alliance with the ANTIFA fascists.

Much to pity, the Democrats and 'news' (tabloid propaganda) media have allied themselves with the ANTIFA cause.
Where in the news media was it covered that the ANTIFA were wrong to commit their acts of violence? Nada.

In fact, when Trump mentions this fact, he's excoriated by the 'news' (tabloid propaganda) media.

Specific to removal of historical monuments:

So who, exactly; which majority, is demanding that these statues and monuments be taken down? Which group has the 'news' (tabloid propaganda) media and Democrats aligned themselves with?

Umm. Hmm.

Except it was the south. There was a group called "the Confederacy".

On top of that, I hate to break it to you but only one side committed an act of murder and terrorism, and that was not "AntiFa".

Lol. 44% is less than half buddy.

And I would bet you a good number of those voted the way they did because if the statues come down they are betting the Neo Confederates are, in their usual loveable manner, going to go after African Americans.

Ah, more stupidity. "It's all a Marxist plot".

Hmm......who else used shrieks of "it's all a Marxist plot" to support their white surpremacist aims?

Ohh yes. Apartheid South Africa.

eohrnberger · Aug 18, 2017

Tigerace117 said:
Except it was the south. There was a group called "the Confederacy".

Yes, the Civil War was the 'The South', many years ago. Today? Not so much.

On top of that, I hate to break it to you but only one side committed an act of murder and terrorism, and that was not "AntiFa".

"AntiFa" has already established a track record of violence. Suppressing free speech that you don't like is typically Fascist in nature, so that applies to them as well. This together makes them violence leftist Fascists.

Lol. 44% is less than half buddy.

Per the citation:
44% of African Americans believe the Confederate statues should stay in place
65% Latin Americans
65% White Americans

You only get partial credit for cherry picking what you wanted. Those percentages combined probably make up a majority of the electorate want to keep historical monuments and statues in place.

And I would bet you a good number of those voted the way they did because if the statues come down they are betting the Neo Confederates are, in their usual loveable manner, going to go after African Americans.

Ah, more stupidity. "It's all a Marxist plot".

Hmm......who else used shrieks of "it's all a Marxist plot" to support their white surpremacist aims?

Ohh yes. Apartheid South Africa.

I'm already on record as denouncing both the white supremacist groups, the alt-right, as well as AntiFa and the alt-left.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

A similar dynamic between similar groups played out in the 1930's between the Red Shirts (Communists) and the Brown Shirts (Nazis) resulting not only in the Red Shirts loosing to the Brown Shirts, but also swinging the sentiment support of the electorate to law and order, which the Brown shirts promised them, hence, making the Brown Shirts even more popular with the electorate, antithetical to the Red Shirts stated goals.

I think Ben has it right on this one.

Shapiro At 'National Review': America Has Twin Cancers, Antifa And The Alt-Right

I further think the each group should be given their rights, and to exercise them, as legally required, but if either steps one toe over the line, even the slightest minuscule legal infraction the perpetrators need to be arrested, charged, held without bail, and tried.

A civilized society has no use for either of them, and has no need for a repeat of WW II.

Tigerace117 · Aug 18, 2017

eohrnberger said:
Yes, the Civil War was the 'The South', many years ago. Today? Not so much.

"AntiFa" has already established a track record of violence. Suppressing free speech that you don't like is typically Fascist in nature, so that applies to them as well. This together makes them violence leftist Fascists.

Per the citation:
44% of African Americans believe the Confederate statues should stay in place
65% Latin Americans
65% White Americans

You only get partial credit for cherry picking what you wanted. Those percentages combined probably make up a majority of the electorate want to keep historical monuments and statues in place.

I'm already on record as denouncing both the white supremacist groups, the alt-right, as well as AntiFa and the alt-left.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

A similar dynamic between similar groups played out in the 1930's between the Red Shirts (Communists) and the Brown Shirts (Nazis) resulting not only in the Red Shirts loosing to the Brown Shirts, but also swinging the sentiment support of the electorate to law and order, which the Brown shirts promised them, hence, making the Brown Shirts even more popular with the electorate, antithetical to the Red Shirts stated goals.

I think Ben has it right on this one.

Shapiro At 'National Review': America Has Twin Cancers, Antifa And The Alt-Right

I further think the each group should be given their rights, and to exercise them, as legally required, but if either steps one toe over the line, even the slightest minuscule legal infraction the perpetrators need to be arrested, charged, held without bail, and tried.

A civilized society has no use for either of them, and has no need for a repeat of WW II.

And despite your rhetorical accusations, the south is still the only group to have committed treason en masse.

Gee bud, which murdered someone? I'll give you a hint--- it wasn't "AntiFa".

I hate to break it to you, but fascism is a right wing ideology buddy.

And it doesn't change a damn thing, because statues are still going down.

So the South is primed to repeat its treason? Do tell.

Neo Nazis don't promise "law and order"; they are anthetical to the whole concept, despite what they might claim.

It's really hilarious how you people try to equate murder with other, lesser crimes. Keep it up.

eohrnberger · Aug 18, 2017

Tigerace117 said:
And despite your rhetorical accusations, the south is still the only group to have committed treason en masse.

Gee bud, which murdered someone? I'll give you a hint--- it wasn't "AntiFa".

None the less AntiFa has well established their violent nature.

I hate to break it to you, but fascism is a right wing ideology buddy.

The far-left, alt-left are using the Fascist tactics.

And it doesn't change a damn thing, because statues are still going down.

Yet to be seen. May or may not happen, or may just happen in locales where the idiocy of SJW and excessive PC have taken root.

So the South is primed to repeat its treason? Do tell.

Strawman, never made that claim. Enjoy arguing with yourself?

Neo Nazis don't promise "law and order"; they are anthetical to the whole concept, despite what they might claim.

This is as the "Brown Shirts" stated back in the 30's. I make no more claim than that. Do keep up.

It's really hilarious how you people try to equate murder with other, lesser crimes. Keep it up.

Jury is still out on that one. There's a video from another angle which shows the driver of that car being blocked by what appears to be AntiFa protesters beating his car with baseball bats. I'll let the investigation uncover the facts and the judge and jury make the final decision on that one.

iguanaman · Aug 18, 2017

eohrnberger said:
None the less AntiFa has well established their violent nature.

The far-left, alt-left are using the Fascist tactics.

Yet to be seen. May or may not happen, or may just happen in locales where the idiocy of SJW and excessive PC have taken root.

Strawman, never made that claim. Enjoy arguing with yourself?

This is as the "Brown Shirts" stated back in the 30's. I make no more claim than that. Do keep up.

Jury is still out on that one. There's a video from another angle which shows the driver of that car being blocked by what appears to be AntiFa protesters beating his car with baseball bats. I'll let the investigation uncover the facts and the judge and jury make the final decision on that one.

Your continued support of the violence of the Alt-right belies your supposed denunciation. They came to that rally loaded for bear and itching for a fight. I'm am tired of the tacit approval and the partisan divide you are attempting to create. This is not a left or right issue. All political persuasions must denounce the Supremacists unequivocally without clouding the issue with partisan nonsense.

eohrnberger · Aug 18, 2017

iguanaman said:
Your continued support of the violence of the Alt-right belies your supposed denunciation.

You are mistaken that I have any sort of "continued support of the violence of the Alt-right". I don't, and never have, and I don't think I ever will.

From my view the protesters could reasonably be segmented into 4 groups (from right to left, as it were)

White Supremacists bent on violence and confrontation with #4
Conservatives who wanted to peacefully protest against the removal of historical monuments and statues
Liberals, SJW, and the excessive PC, who wanted to peacefully protest for the removal of historical monuments and statues
AntiFa anarchists bent on violence and confrontation with #1

Your apparent lumping of anyone in #2 with #1 is telling and is typical of the left, doing so with anyone who dares to have the temerity to disagree with them and their agenda, AKA typical liberal intolerance.

Your ignoring the violence that AntiFa brings with them whenever they show up is also tacit approval their violence, the same as you claim of others that don't agree with your political agenda.

They came to that rally loaded for bear and itching for a fight. I'm am tired of the tacit approval and the partisan divide you are attempting to create. This is not a left or right issue. All political persuasions must denounce the Supremacists unequivocally without clouding the issue with partisan nonsense.

On par and on balance all political persuasions must denounce the violent AntiFa anarchists, and their use of fascist tactics, unequivocally without clouding the issue with partisan nonsense.

iguanaman · Aug 18, 2017

eohrnberger said:
You are mistaken that I have any sort of "continued support of the violence of the Alt-right". I don't, and never have, and I don't think I ever will.

From my view the protesters could reasonably be segmented into 4 groups (from right to left, as it were)

White Supremacists bent on violence and confrontation with #4

Conservatives who wanted to peacefully protest against the removal of historical monuments and statues

Liberals, SJW, and the excessive PC, who wanted to peacefully protest for the removal of historical monuments and statues

AntiFa anarchists bent on violence and confrontation with #1

Your apparent lumping of anyone in #2 with #1 is telling and is typical of the left, doing so with anyone who dares to have the temerity to disagree with them and their agenda, AKA typical liberal intolerance.

Your ignoring the violence that AntiFa brings with them whenever they show up is also tacit approval their violence, the same as you claim of others that don't agree with your political agenda.

On par and on balance all political persuasions must denounce the violent AntiFa anarchists, and their use of fascist tactics, unequivocally without clouding the issue with partisan nonsense.

See that is where your argument falls apart, participating in a rally organized by the alt-right makes you a white supremacist. Using anti-fa as a whataboutism is nothing but support for what you claim to denounce. Anti-fa was not the point of that rally, white supremacism certainly was.

Geoist · Aug 18, 2017

DamnYankee said:
First it was flags. Remember that? People wanted to change certain flags of Southern states. Now it's statues and Stone Mountain. People want statues that were connected to the Confederacy torn down. Okay, so what's next?

Monticello? Mt. Vernon? Cemeteries of Confederate dead? Mt. Rushmore? Al Sharpton is calling for the removal of the Jefferson Memorial in Washington DC. is that a good idea?

All these things have something in common. All are connected to slavery, bigotry and racism. So, if we are to tear down these things, should we also disband the Democratic Party which gave us slavery, Jim Crow and, the Klan?

Kassam: They're Coming for Mount Rushmore, But They SHOULD Be Tearing Down the DemoKKKrat Party

Been enjoying the alt-right freakout all week.

opcorn:

Geoist · Aug 18, 2017

Moderate Right said:
I was just thinking about this the other day. Let's go after Thomas Jefferson and abolish the Declaration of Independence.

The false equivalencies have been hilarious, but now they are just getting tired. We have explained the differences. Somehow I think you guysdon't read responses from opposing viewpoints.

Geoist · Aug 18, 2017

BillRM said:
Strangely knowing what a gentleman Lee happen to had been and how he was one of those that did his best to bring the nation back together after the war I feel that given everything he would likely had agree with me concerning the need for sledgehammers.

Absolutely. He was opposed to even Confederate flags continuing to fly, along with such statues. Those would not be erected until at least 20 years after his death. Ironically, those who want to 'honor' him are actually dishonoring his requests.

eohrnberger · Aug 18, 2017

iguanaman said:
See that is where your argument falls apart, participating in a rally organized by the alt-right makes you a white supremacist. Using anti-fa as a whataboutism is nothing but support for what you claim to denounce. Anti-fa was not the point of that rally, white supremacism certainly was.

And your argument falls apart when you lump all of group #2 in with group #1.

I understand why you and other leftist partisan hacks do it.

13. "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.
Rules for Radicals

Essentially what you want to do with anyone that doesn't toe your political line and agenda.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. There are conservatives which don't want to take down historical monuments and statutes who are most certainly not white supremacists, nor racists, nor bigots.

I also realize that this is an inconvenient truth for you and your agenda. A truth that you want to destroy by "freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it".

Moderate Right · Aug 18, 2017

Geoist said:
The false equivalencies have been hilarious, but now they are just getting tired. We have explained the differences. Somehow I think you guysdon't read responses from opposing viewpoints.

You need to explain the differences better to your buddy, Al Sharpton, who thinks the Jefferson Memorial in DC should be removed.

ocean515 · Aug 18, 2017

eohrnberger said:
And your argument falls apart when you lump all of group #2 in with group #1.

I understand why you and other leftist partisan hacks do it.

Essentially what you want to do with anyone that doesn't toe your political line and agenda.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. There are conservatives which don't want to take down historical monuments and statutes who are most certainly not white supremacists, nor racists, nor bigots.

I also realize that this is an inconvenient truth for you and your agenda. A truth that you want to destroy by "freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it".

Well done.

All the strings the puppet masters are using to polarize and divide the country need to be exposed.

All people need to wake up to what is going on in this country, and then do something about it.

katzgar · Aug 18, 2017

Moderate Right said:
You need to explain the differences better to your buddy, Al Sharpton, who thinks the Jefferson Memorial in DC should be removed.

Your post is a lie that's not what Sharpton said.

eohrnberger · Aug 18, 2017

ocean515 said:
Well done.

All the strings the puppet masters are using to polarize and divide the country need to be exposed.

All people need to wake up to what is going on in this country, and then do something about it.

I can only speak to what I believe, and what I've posted is what I believe, and is in fact my position on the matter. Thanks for the support.

iguanaman · Aug 19, 2017

eohrnberger said:
And your argument falls apart when you lump all of group #2 in with group #1.

I understand why you and other leftist partisan hacks do it.

Essentially what you want to do with anyone that doesn't toe your political line and agenda.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. There are conservatives which don't want to take down historical monuments and statutes who are most certainly not white supremacists, nor racists, nor bigots.

I also realize that this is an inconvenient truth for you and your agenda. A truth that you want to destroy by "freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it".

I'm not buying that those marching with Nazi's are any different than Nazi's. You are in a bind because you need to be loyal to Heir Trump and you parrot his false equivalency also. You will lose like those Nazi's will lose and nobody will be crying for you. If anything was learned from Chralotesille it was that those Confederate abominations must go and quickly. They are bait for Nazi's as if we needed another reason to banish them from our public parks and squares.

eohrnberger · Aug 19, 2017

iguanaman said:
I'm not buying that those marching with Nazi's are any different than Nazi's.

And the dishonest but politically advantageous broad brushing continues.

You are in a bind because you need to be loyal to Heir Trump and you parrot his false equivalency also.

I am in no such bind. That's a strawman.

You will lose like those Nazi's will lose and nobody will be crying for you.

Relevance?

If anything was learned from Chralotesille it was that those Confederate abominations must go and quickly. They are bait for Nazi's as if we needed another reason to banish them from our public parks and squares.

The same adherence to legal principal that afford such groups to be allowed public assembly is the same that allows for public display of historical monuments and statues.

You are giving historical monuments and statutes more power than they inherently have. If you really want to neuter them as "bait for Nazi's", stop taking them down.

I think you, and everyone else that supports taking statues down, needs to more closely examine the real reasons behind wanting to do so.

"Forty-four percent of African Americans believe the Confederate statues should stay in place"
"Latin Americans who participated overwhelmingly believe that Confederate monuments should stay in place — 65 percent said they should remain."
"White Americans also overwhelmingly supported keeping up Confederate monuments– 65 percent said they should stay"

POLL: Most Black Americans Don’t Want Confederate Statues Removed

So WHO exactly are you wanting to do this for anyway?

DamnYankee · Aug 19, 2017

eohrnberger said:
You are giving historical monuments and statutes more power than they inherently have. If you really want to neuter them as "bait for Nazi's", stop taking them down.

Fascinating isn't it? The power inanimate objects have over people. Look at Pelosi. In congress for 30 years and was never bothered by the statues in the hall, and now all of a sudden, she's calling for their removal. lol I hope she keeps squawking about them for a while.

iguanaman · Aug 19, 2017

eohrnberger said:
And the dishonest but politically advantageous broad brushing continues.

I am in no such bind. That's a strawman.

Relevance?

The same adherence to legal principal that afford such groups to be allowed public assembly is the same that allows for public display of historical monuments and statues.

You are giving historical monuments and statutes more power than they inherently have. If you really want to neuter them as "bait for Nazi's", stop taking them down.

I think you, and everyone else that supports taking statues down, needs to more closely examine the real reasons behind wanting to do so.

"Forty-four percent of African Americans believe the Confederate statues should stay in place"

"Latin Americans who participated overwhelmingly believe that Confederate monuments should stay in place — 65 percent said they should remain."

"White Americans also overwhelmingly supported keeping up Confederate monuments– 65 percent said they should stay"

POLL: Most Black Americans Don’t Want Confederate Statues Removed

So WHO exactly are you wanting to do this for anyway?

If there was any honor in the Confederacy it was not in their leaders. Statues honoring them portray a perverted version of history. They are nothing but propaganda. Replace them with statues of some of the many ordinary southerners that died needlessly in that hopeless and evil cause. I think we have come to the conclusion that we need to cleanse ourselves of these symbols of racism and stop the myths of the nobility of the cause. What would you suggest to help end this circle of hate that still festers in our midst?

eohrnberger · Aug 19, 2017

iguanaman said:
If there was any honor in the Confederacy it was not in their leaders. Statues honoring them portray a perverted version of history. They are nothing but propaganda. Replace them with statues of some of the many ordinary southerners that died needlessly in that hopeless and evil cause. I think we have come to the conclusion that we need to cleanse ourselves of these symbols of racism and stop the myths of the nobility of the cause. What would you suggest to help end this circle of hate that still festers in our midst?

You can't 'cleanse' yourself, or the nation, from what historically happened. You further claim that these statutes are 'honoring' 'a perverted version of history'.

Facts, such as historical facts, honor no one, they are simply historical facts.

Individual acts of bravery and valor, are independent of your assessment of the historical context. They are individual acts of bravery and valor regardless.

U.S. Public Law 85-425: Sec. 410 Approved 23 May 1958

(US Statutes at Large Volume 72, Part 1, Page 133-134)
The Administrator shall pay to each person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War a monthly pension in the same amounts and subject to the same conditions as would have been applicable to such person under the laws in effect on December 31, 1957, if his service in such forces had been service in the military or naval forces of the United States.

Confederate Soldiers – American Veterans by Act of Congress | Veterans Today

The federal government and the federal military makes no distinction between the veterans of The North and the veterans of the South.

Why should you (and others) get so hung up about this?

Further, if this is such an abomination, as you claim, why now? Why not 8 years ago?

As I posted, if you want to neuter that which brings the White Supremacists, the Neo-Nazis out in force, such as they are, deny them their rallying point, their rallying cry, and stop removing the statues.

katzgar · Aug 19, 2017

eohrnberger said:
You can't 'cleanse' yourself, or the nation, from what historically happened. You further claim that these statutes are 'honoring' 'a perverted version of history'.

Facts, such as historical facts, honor no one, they are simply historical facts.

Individual acts of bravery and valor, are independent of your assessment of the historical context. They are individual acts of bravery and valor regardless.

The federal government and the federal military makes no distinction between the veterans of The North and the veterans of the South.

Why should you (and others) get so hung up about this?

Further, if this is such an abomination, as you claim, why now? Why not 8 years ago?

As I posted, if you want to neuter that which brings the White Supremacists, the Neo-Nazis out in force, such as they are, deny them their rallying point, their rallying cry, and stop removing the statues.

Your post is incorrect the traitor Confederate Veterans didn't get any recognition At All by the Veterans Administration till the 1950s

eohrnberger · Aug 19, 2017

katzgar said:
Your post is incorrect the traitor Confederate Veterans didn't get any recognition At All by the Veterans Administration till the 1950s

So you admit it yourself that Confederate Veterans did receive recognition. Thank you.

iguanaman · Aug 19, 2017

eohrnberger said:
You can't 'cleanse' yourself, or the nation, from what historically happened. You further claim that these statutes are 'honoring' 'a perverted version of history'.

Facts, such as historical facts, honor no one, they are simply historical facts.

Individual acts of bravery and valor, are independent of your assessment of the historical context. They are individual acts of bravery and valor regardless.

The federal government and the federal military makes no distinction between the veterans of The North and the veterans of the South.

Why should you (and others) get so hung up about this?

Further, if this is such an abomination, as you claim, why now? Why not 8 years ago?

As I posted, if you want to neuter that which brings the White Supremacists, the Neo-Nazis out in force, such as they are, deny them their rallying point, their rallying cry, and stop removing the statues.

Actually now it would be giving in to and emboldening those supremacists if we were to stop removing the Statues. They made it their cause and I explained to you why that is. But in reality it is up to the individual town councils where the statues are located to decide. They put them up and they can decide to remove them. What is the problem with that? You are against local Govts. having the power to decide what they do in their town? I'm afraid this ridiculousness about removing them only makes it more obvious that this is a racial issue not a political one. It is a dangerous game you play.