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Why Wont Liberals Follow the Amendment Process for Nationalizing Healthcare

jonny5

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For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

I believe you answered your own question.
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

If no specific federal power exists to support X then simply stretch the commerce or taxation powers to cover it - see Medicare, Social Security and PPACA.

This song comes to mind:



As does this one:

 
By the same token, if this legislation so blatantly unconstitutional it shouldn't be difficult to get SCOTUS to shut it down.
 
By the same token, if this legislation so blatantly unconstitutional it shouldn't be difficult to get SCOTUS to shut it down.

The trick is to have legal 'standing' (showing a direct personal harm from) to challenge a given federal (or state) law/program before the SCOTUS. Unlike a law that imposed a sentence upon you, it is hard to show that allegedly giving John Doe some of your tax money personally harmed you.
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

Yawn. The conservative War on Drugs called for you.

Didn't leave any message.
 
"Why won't liberals....? " :roll:

So there's some kind of insinuation that "conservatives" don't/won't do the exact same god-damned thing????

The hackery is astounding.


How about this instead:

"Why won't our government.....?"
 
1. they are ignorant of the constitution?

No, that would be you. The commerce clause of the United States gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, and health care is an industry that is well within their right to regulate. They don't need any type of amendment because these powers are already well within their domain.

If the majority of states would like to provide universal health care to their citizens and handful don't the ones that do will almost certainly have to raise taxes and create regulations that could result in some businesses wanting to leave for the states that don't. It could also result in sicker people from the states that don't relocating to the states that do, and healthier people from the states that do relocating to the states that don't. This potentially hurts trade in the states that do, and creates a dispute between them and the states that don't.

Now if the states were individual countries they could remedy this problem by placing taxes and tariffs on incoming goods as well as put up border security that could reject immigrants with health problems. But since the borders of the various states are wide open it falls on the Federal government to arbitrate the dispute between the states and decide whether all states should be required to provide similar health care laws to limit the problem or not.
 
No, that would be you. The commerce clause of the United States gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, and health care is an industry that is well within their right to regulate. They don't need any type of amendment because these powers are already well within their domain.

If the majority of states would like to provide universal health care to their citizens and handful don't the ones that do will almost certainly have to raise taxes and create regulations that could result in some businesses wanting to leave for the states that don't. It could also result in sicker people from the states that don't relocating to the states that do, and healthier people from the states that do relocating to the states that don't. This potentially hurts trade in the states that do, and creates a dispute between them and the states that don't.

Now if the states were individual countries they could remedy this problem by placing taxes and tariffs on incoming goods as well as put up border security that could reject immigrants with health problems. But since the borders of the various states are wide open it falls on the Federal government to arbitrate the dispute between the states and decide whether all states should be required to provide similar health care laws to limit the problem or not.

You're speaking as though the United States were a single country instead of a bunch of sovereign states in a federation, which is the opinion of many of our right wing friends.
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

Oh the irony....Knowing your constitutional law would help...
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

The answer to your overall question is number 3.

The amendment process was deliberately designed to be exceedingly difficult. It's easier for them to use legislative chicanery.
 
For nearly 100 years now, since the New Deal, govt has been expanding its powers without any need to get those powers via the agreed upon process, submit an amendment, and have 3/4 states ratify it. We did this for the income tax and prohibition on alchohol, and now liberals want to nationalize an entire industry. Why wont they or dont they want to follow the amendment process, instead of pushing through massive nation changing laws on the barest of majorities?

1. they are ignorant of the constitution?
2. they dont care about the constitution?
3. they know they would never get 3/4 state support?

If people are in such need, and it was such wide support as liberals claim, shouldnt it be an easy win to simply add a line to the constitution giving the congress the power to tax and spend on healthcare? Or creating a national healthcare system?

I'd say yes to 2 and 3. No to 1. Liberals can't be bothered with a deliberately long and arduous process when a simple EO or quickly passed law will do.

MJ? No problem. Just vote state by state to ignore the law.

Treaty? No problem. Not even an EO is necessary. Just deliver the loot in unmarked bills in the dead of night.

Confiscation of an industry? No problem. Just do it. Works for cars and health care.

Illegal border violations? No problem. Those laws are silly anyway. Let 'em all in.
 
You're speaking as though the United States were a single country instead of a bunch of sovereign states in a federation, which is the opinion of many of our right wing friends.

Seems to be. The "United" part of "The United States of America" always gets forgotten when convenient.
 
By the same token, if this legislation so blatantly unconstitutional it shouldn't be difficult to get SCOTUS to shut it down.

That seems a backward way of running a society, in essence throw everything against the wall and see what sticks.
 
"Why won't liberals....? " :roll:

So there's some kind of insinuation that "conservatives" don't/won't do the exact same god-damned thing????

The hackery is astounding.


How about this instead:

"Why won't our government.....?"

CONSERVATIVES arent pushing to nationalize healthcare, are they?
 
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No, that would be you. The commerce clause of the United States gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, and health care is an industry that is well within their right to regulate. They don't need any type of amendment because these powers are already well within their domain.

If the majority of states would like to provide universal health care to their citizens and handful don't the ones that do will almost certainly have to raise taxes and create regulations that could result in some businesses wanting to leave for the states that don't. It could also result in sicker people from the states that don't relocating to the states that do, and healthier people from the states that do relocating to the states that don't. This potentially hurts trade in the states that do, and creates a dispute between them and the states that don't.

Now if the states were individual countries they could remedy this problem by placing taxes and tariffs on incoming goods as well as put up border security that could reject immigrants with health problems. But since the borders of the various states are wide open it falls on the Federal government to arbitrate the dispute between the states and decide whether all states should be required to provide similar health care laws to limit the problem or not.

Where does that argument end then? Youre view of the commerce clause would allow the federal govt to control nearly every aspect of our lives, as I cant think of any activity that doesnt in some way involve commerce. The house i live in, my job, my car, my computer, this website, the internet. You really think that was the intent of the founders, to give congress nearly unlimited power?
 
Where does that argument end then? Youre view of the commerce clause would allow the federal govt to control nearly every aspect of our lives, as I cant think of any activity that doesnt in some way involve commerce. The house i live in, my job, my car, my computer, this website, the internet. You really think that was the intent of the founders, to give congress nearly unlimited power?

Yes, life is complicated. No the founders didn't intend to give congress nearly unlimited power. They intended for that power to be checked and balanced by the other two branches of government. Which it is.
 
Where does that argument end then?
You're view of the commerce clause would allow the federal govt to control nearly every aspect of our lives, as I cant think of any activity that doesnt in some way involve commerce. The house i live in, my job, my car, my computer, this website, the internet. You really think that was the intent of the founders, to give congress nearly unlimited power?
Well first it ends with the bill of rights, and I would be open to expanding that bill of rights to include certain things about what can and cannot be put into and taken out of your own body. I'm willing to listen to more ideas if anybody would like to offer them.

There's also the reality that something has to be able to cause an impact across state lines in some way, and you'll need the majority of the states to consider it a problem worth regulating.

But other than that it ends when the majority of Americans agree that certain things don't really need to be regulated. At least not at that level. People like you seem to forget that this is a democracy. We're not ruled by a king or a dictator who can do whatever he wants. At least not unless right wing nuts in this country find a way to install Trump permanently that is. Our government is elected for the people, by the people. So when you bitch about the government whether you like it or not you're bitching about your neighbors. The people you live with and interact with on a daily basis. Every where you go you see people who want you to have decent health insurance because if you get in a car accident they want to make sure that you can afford to pay your doctors to save your life so that they don't have to bail you out unless you truly need it.

Even if you believe the Federal Government shouldn't have this power there is no doubt that states, cities, and local governments do. I always find it hilarious how wealthy right wing assholes bitch about the government while simultaneously choosing to live in gated communities with ridiculously stringent HOA's governing everything from where they can store their trash can to whether or not they can put a basketball hoop in their driveway.

Even now there are right wing state governments passing laws preventing individual cities within their borders from passing their own local regulations like raising the minimum wage even though that shouldn't effect anybody but the people that live within those cities.

Our founding fathers did not revolt because they didn't want taxes or regulations. They simply wanted representation so that the citizens themselves had a say in what was taxed and regulated. When they spoke of freedom they didn't mean endless freedom to do whatever the hell you wanted whenever you wanted to do it, they simply meant the freedom for the people to decide for themselves what truly needed regulating and what didn't.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it the world is getting smaller and smaller by the day, and technological advances are bringing us all closer and closer together. That does mean that more of the things you do with your life will have an impact on the lives of others, and we as a society will have to continually asses to what level of impact another person is allowed to have on another before it's too much.

You're welcome to add your opinion to that discussion, but if you want some catch all piece of the constitution to automatically win you these arguments no matter how many people disagree with you it's not actually there.
 
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That seems a backward way of running a society, in essence throw everything against the wall and see what sticks.

The barriers to a constitutional amendment have never been higher, so the result of very strict constitutional legislation would be that very little legislation could be created at all.

Maybe that would be better than the status quo, but I'm far from convinced.
 
Yes, life is complicated. No the founders didn't intend to give congress nearly unlimited power. They intended for that power to be checked and balanced by the other two branches of government. Which it is.

Is it? Both those branches regularly go against it. Ultimatly the people should check them, but they dont either.
 
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