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Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?

J

JBG

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Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.
 
So we can't 'officially' allow cops to be judge, jury and executioners but we can allow prison guards to be?

Yeah, no.

I think the term is 'slippery slope'.
 
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JBG said:
Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.
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Because mass murderers tend to be cowards who are unwilling to fight someone who is capable of defending themselves.
 
JBG said:
What use are garbage like them?
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to remind those of us who are ambivalent about the death penalty why in some cases it might be justified?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Because mass murderers tend to be cowards who are unwilling to fight someone who is capable of defending themselves.
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Slingshot Bob said:
Before trial? No. After trial? Hell yes, in a hurry.
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TurtleDude said:
to remind those of us who are ambivalent about the death penalty why in some cases it might be justified?
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The death penalty sounds good but executing someone 20 years after the event is useless. Even the original trial and conviction don't happen fast enough.
 
JBG said:
The death penalty sounds good but executing someone 20 years after the event is useless. Even the original trial and conviction don't happen fast enough.
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And besides, there is no real amusement values in the way we do it. With more action and panic people might take more note.

;)
 
Slingshot Bob said:
Before trial? No. After trial? Hell yes, in a hurry.
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The problem is that the wheels of justice grind slowly if at all. With people such as Son of Sam there is also the fine point of whether they are competent to stand trial. They may well not be.

However, I frankly don't care about the mental state of someone who murders others who leave behind loved ones. I really don't care that they're accepting orders from a 1000 year old man delivered by way of a Labrador Retriever.
 
joG said:
And besides, there is no real amusement values in the way we do it. With more action and panic people might take more note.

;)
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As you probably know a lot of death penalty appeals are based upon the lack of quality of the lethal injection serum. I frankly don't care about the suffering for a few minutes of someone who caused incalculable suffering for the victims and their families. Was Son of Sam really worried about pre-death pain caused by the ammunition?
 
katzgar said:
You aren't an American are you
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Yes. And a leftist as well.

America is based upon freedom. Freedom implies self-control. Where murder is tolerable dictatorship reigns. Never forget that.
 
JBG said:
Yes. And a leftist as well.

America is based upon freedom. Freedom implies self-control. Where murder is tolerable dictatorship reigns. Never forget that.
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I see so you're an ignorant American
 
JBG said:
As you probably know a lot of death penalty appeals are based upon the lack of quality of the lethal injection serum. I frankly don't care about the suffering for a few minutes of someone who caused incalculable suffering for the victims and their families. Was Son of Sam really worried about pre-death pain caused by the ammunition?
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Exactly. Hunt them down on TV like in the movies and if they survive, give'em another round. ;)
 
JBG said:
Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.
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Huh. So you hate the rule of law and our system of justice.

OK. What now?
 
JBG said:
The problem is that the wheels of justice grind slowly if at all. With people such as Son of Sam there is also the fine point of whether they are competent to stand trial. They may well not be.

However, I frankly don't care about the mental state of someone who murders others who leave behind loved ones. I really don't care that they're accepting orders from a 1000 year old man delivered by way of a Labrador Retriever.
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I don't think that 1000 year old man was ever caught.

They should have looked harder for him.

Did they at least get the dog?
 
Anyone else wanna watch Judge Dredd now? :lol:

judge dredd.jpg
 
The whole tenor of the responses are appeals to emotion rather than reason. Again how much due process did Son of Sam's or Manson's victims get? How much consideration for their loss, the tragedies suffered by their families and their suffering?
 
Mason66 said:
I don't think that 1000 year old man was ever caught.

They should have looked harder for him.

Did they at least get the dog?
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Well black Labs are dogs with murder on their hearts. Ferocious animals, typically.
 
JBG said:
Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.
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Because all people are entitled to a trial in this country. End of story.

And for the record, life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty. I mean, I personally don't think a government that acts like its worst citizens is worthy of existing, but if money is all you care about, then life in prison is what you should be supporting anyway.
 
JBG said:
What use are garbage like them?
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No use. Treating them like people and not like garbage is what we do, not for them, but in order not to become garbage ourselves which we would be if our system of justice failed to distinguish between the guilty and innocent at the time of arrest.
 
JBG said:
Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.
Click to expand...

You might have a point except for the ones who are arrested who are NOT guilty, and the ones who are wrongly convicted and sometimes spend decades in jail even though they are INNOCENT, and then there are the ones who were on death row before it was discovered that they were innocent.

How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice to make you feel better about our justice system?
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
So we can't 'officially' allow cops to be judge, jury and executioners but we can allow prison guards to be?

Yeah, no.

I think the term is 'slippery slope'.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree. Either the rules are for everyone, or they are for no one. There's no room for something in between.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Because all people are entitled to a trial in this country. End of story.

And for the record, life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty. I mean, I personally don't think a government that acts like its worst citizens is worthy of existing, but if money is all you care about, then life in prison is what you should be supporting anyway.
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JackA said:
No use. Treating them like people and not like garbage is what we do, not for them, but in order not to become garbage ourselves which we would be if our system of justice failed to distinguish between the guilty and innocent at the time of arrest.
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Glen Contrarian said:
You might have a point except for the ones who are arrested who are NOT guilty, and the ones who are wrongly convicted and sometimes spend decades in jail even though they are INNOCENT, and then there are the ones who were on death row before it was discovered that they were innocent.

How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice to make you feel better about our justice system?
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eohrnberger said:
I'd have to agree. Either the rules are for everyone, or they are for no one. There's no room for something in between.
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The sentiments and emotions here are fine. Just as they were back in the 1960's in summer camp when children sang "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" or as young adults at Woodstock singing the "Fish (reworded) Cheer" and "Fixin' to Die Rag" with Country Joe Macdonald and Joan Baez. The practicalities are that many, though not all of these "innocent people" have rap sheets multiple arrests and convictions long. What I am suggesting is that if some of these died during commission of the crime, see Post #20 (link) above, or less ideally during arrest there would be fewer crimes. Criminals would realize that a petty burglary to meet the needs for a drug fix could wind up killing them.
 
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