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Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?

Your second dodge of the point I made is noted.

I wonder why you are too afraid to even acknowledge it
Am I under injunction to agree with you?

OK yes, more blacks die both at the hands of police and by capital punishment. And distressingly few murderers of black people face appropriate, much less capital, punishment. You make a good point that black victims need justice. I disagree with the rest of your point.

Also if someone dies during what amounts to a fight, the other person isn't necessarily a felon.
 
Am I under injunction to agree with you?

OK yes, more blacks die both at the hands of police and by capital punishment. And distressingly few murderers of black people face appropriate, much less capital, punishment. You make a good point that black victims need justice. I disagree with the rest of your point.

Also if someone dies during what amounts to a fight, the other person isn't necessarily a felon.

Why do you believe black people, when convicted of the same crime, more often get the death penalty?
 
You are in no position to give me an order of any kind.

However, certain groups tend to go "bad" in certain ways. With Jews, it's financial fraud. And I am Jewish. With Russians, it's the "gasoline mafia." Neither of those activities normally has a deadly ending. Getting into a fight with a police officer or a botched burglary or armed robbery, criminal activity typical of the inner city, does.

Have not followed the discussion to know in full context what your post is in response too. But I saw this portion--I highlighted in blue bold--and thought it a bit humorous. Because if my memory does serve me correct (I could be remembering incorrectly but I doubt it) the Russian Jews were the ones who initiated and came up with that gasoline scam in the USA. The non-Jewish Russian mobsters then muscled there way in. I think--again if I am remembering correctly--New York Italian mobsters then muscled into on the Russian gangsters and forced them to essentially pay them protect money on that gasoline racket.

I read a book on Russian mobsters many years ago I think. Vaguely in my memory or mind I seem to recall it being stated most Russian mobsters--gangs--are Ukrainian and Chechen. If that matters any in a deeper ethno-sociological micro look into the matter of Russian organized crime. But again, assuming I am remembering correctly.

Russian crime in the US also includes a variety of fraud into medical insurance I think.

Anyways... the Russians really aren't killing many--if any--people in the USA. Yet somehow Hollywood likes to depicted the American Russian "mafia" as the most murderous group in the USA. Yeah, sure. I'm betting New York Italians/Sicilians kill a lot more people and are far more numerous (not to mention deeply entrenched in politics, unions, various infrastructures of New York City) in people than the Russian mobsters in NYC.

So, at minimum, they are probably kicking up money to the Italians for the connections to political leaders and unions or whatever that they Italians have. I would suspect anyways.
 
Yes. And a leftist as well.

America is based upon freedom. Freedom implies self-control. Where murder is tolerable dictatorship reigns. Never forget that.

Murder isn't tolerable here. People are tried and if convicted punished in accordance with our laws. You can argue that the punishments are severe enough - and I agree though I'm not a fan for the DP, or you can argue that it takes too long to bring about a verdict - and again I'd agree - but to suggest that the US is a free for all where murder is tolerated isn't exactly accurate either.

As to dying in police custody. Arrest doesn't mean guilty. It never has though a lot of people seem to forget that.
 
The whole tenor of the responses are appeals to emotion rather than reason. Again how much due process did Son of Sam's or Manson's victims get? How much consideration for their loss, the tragedies suffered by their families and their suffering?

Victims don't need due process. Defendants do because they just might be innocent
 
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Why do you believe black people, when convicted of the same crime, more often get the death penalty?
I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.

I believe that the greater frequency of death penalty for blacks may be due to longer rap sheets.
 
Today is the 40th anniversary of the arrest of David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" murderer (link). Mr. Berkowitz was arrested after a year plus long rampage where he shot people, usually in parked cars late at night, at random. Allegedly, he was commanded by a 1000 year old man talking through a Labrador Retriever owned by a neighbor whose first name was Sam.

He was caught when his vehicle received a parking ticket near the scene of a July 31, 1977 murder. He was arrested as he strolled towards the car which had the murder weapon, in plain view, in the back seat.

Similarly, Charles Manson and his minions were, in 1969, caught virtually red-handed and arrested.

Mr. Manson has now spent over 48 years as a government charge. Mr. Berkowitz has been in New York State prison for exactly 40 years. Neither Mr. Manson and his followers, or Mr. Berkowitz have any hope of release. They will not contribute to society.

I know we can't officially allow police officers to serve as judge, jury and executioners. The question I have is why more of these people don't perish during a struggle during arrest. Failing that why aren't they mixed with the general prison population or die during an escape attempt? I am not amused by the lengthy imprisonments or, in the case of Manson, the wild, theatrical trials that make a mockery of the court system.

That is pretty damn stupid.

I say that because neither Manson nor Berkowitz resisted arrest, and the court system worked well in both cases.
 
That is pretty damn stupid.

I say that because neither Manson nor Berkowitz resisted arrest, and the court system worked well in both cases.
Arguably the court system worked well though in Manson I have my doubts. But Manson has been on government payroll for 48 years, since 1969. Berkowitz just over 40 years, from 1977. For what?
 
I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.

I believe that the greater frequency of death penalty for blacks may be due to longer rap sheets.

It won't because the death penalty in the USA--being put on death row--is a loooooooong process. So, it does not deter. In fact it offers some hope. And I doubt the death penalty system in the USA has been shown to deter crime or violence.

At age 40 would you rather do 30 years in prison or be put to death anyways? I guess working 30 years on a Southern slave plantation is preferable to you than death too? Screw the whole "Give me liberty or give me death!" thing, right?

You can use violence--or the threat of--in conjunction with other strategic moves to dramatically reduce violence in Black-American communities.

I'm not an idealist in this sense I am a realest. So, take Chicago for example. There are a number of things going on contributing to the violence problem. And given sin and violence can come down to the individual (rather than the collective) anywhere on the planet, it is impossible for me to know all factors. It would also be impossible for me (or any leader/mayor) to create paradise. But what one can do is set a goal which has a high bar set. A very high bar. And pursue that goal with a focus, energy, and commitment like a maniac. You bring in staff and specialist to ensure your goal is met and advise and manage things, under the Wisconsin Lombardi ethos of, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."

Black Chicago could be turned around into a close equivalent of an Arab Dubai. It could be the envy of all the black global world. It could be but it will never be though.

But why? Because it takes a Putin-like mayor, strong leader, one willing to be cursed as the Devil Incarnate on earth, one willing to create enemies among the most powerful on earth.

To you "death penalty" thing and how it could work in Chicago. As mayor you would have to know the streets respect only (I did not stutter) two things: money and might.

You have to have one if you don't have both. You can pay your "troubles" off or you can have them fear to tread on your terrain.

That's realism not idealism. So, as mayor you make a public statement with your soldiers (cops) in row(s), all you together before the cameras and journalists. You tell all Chicago and planet earth you intend on killing so many black hoodlums in Chicago the UN is going to demand you be brought up on genocide charges. (What the President and screaming politicians don't know when they will go hysterical is this: you don't have to kill a single soul if your enemy believes you will kill a million of them in short order).

You establish a tone of strength right at day 1. I learned this in the Marine Corps. Never, ever, come in office as a nice guy. You can be the nicest and coolest guy on earth and all can learn that but you don't show that or lead others to believe that when you come in day 1 to address them. If you do you will have lost every thing from the beginning.

So, lead from a position of strength. And then negotiate from a position of strength. Chicago's gang leadership structure have been largely wiped out. That is one of the problems. Force leaders to emerge among them and then negotiate from strength that they police their own gang members. If your (mayor's) streets are not bloodbaths you will give them space by instructing your officers to back off and not be harassing. Your streets turn into a blood bath, little old black grandmothers complain they are terrified to walk the streets, then: "I'll order my cops to go in and wipe all of you up off the face of the earth. No one will make money. I'll take the whole god--- pie, because I'm a greedy mutha f--- like that. I don't give a f--- about the President or the Governor, I'll beat that Cub Scout into an inch of his life with my own fists."

But violence and threats are insufficient. The greater black population of Chicago needs hope. Those sleeping on the cold streets need shelter. So, you break open the city piggy banks. You become--accused by your enemies--a communist. You reduce or eliminate taxes for a lot of corporations and you have your economist come p with inventive ways of raising revenue from all the once out of wok flooding into jobs. You want to create an environment so good--so good doing the right and average Joe thing--no one wants to join any gangs in Chicago and they literally struggle with recruitment. You force the gangs de facto to become *organized* and one might even say *civilized.*

I'm sure there are other things that need to be done but those are some. Not really rocket science.
 
I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.

I believe that the greater frequency of death penalty for blacks may be due to longer rap sheets.

Three dodges. I'm glad you don't care what other people think of you. Shows real character.
 
It won't because the death penalty in the USA--being put on death row--is a loooooooong process. So, it does not deter. In fact it offers some hope. And I doubt the death penalty system in the USA has been shown to deter crime or violence.

At age 40 would you rather do 30 years in prison or be put to death anyways? I guess working 30 years on a Southern slave plantation is preferable to you than death too? Screw the whole "Give me liberty or give me death!" thing, right?

You can use violence--or the threat of--in conjunction with other strategic moves to dramatically reduce violence in Black-American communities.

I'm not an idealist in this sense I am a realest. So, take Chicago for example. There are a number of things going on contributing to the violence problem. And given sin and violence can come down to the individual (rather than the collective) anywhere on the planet, it is impossible for me to know all factors. It would also be impossible for me (or any leader/mayor) to create paradise. But what one can do is set a goal which has a high bar set. A very high bar. And pursue that goal with a focus, energy, and commitment like a maniac. You bring in staff and specialist to ensure your goal is met and advise and manage things, under the Wisconsin Lombardi ethos of, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."

Black Chicago could be turned around into a close equivalent of an Arab Dubai. It could be the envy of all the black global world. It could be but it will never be though.

But why? Because it takes a Putin-like mayor, strong leader, one willing to be cursed as the Devil Incarnate on earth, one willing to create enemies among the most powerful on earth.

To you "death penalty" thing and how it could work in Chicago. As mayor you would have to know the streets respect only (I did not stutter) two things: money and might.

You have to have one if you don't have both. You can pay your "troubles" off or you can have them fear to tread on your terrain.

That's realism not idealism. So, as mayor you make a public statement with your soldiers (cops) in row(s), all you together before the cameras and journalists. You tell all Chicago and planet earth you intend on killing so many black hoodlums in Chicago the UN is going to demand you be brought up on genocide charges. (What the President and screaming politicians don't know when they will go hysterical is this: you don't have to kill a single soul if your enemy believes you will kill a million of them in short order).

You establish a tone of strength right at day 1. I learned this in the Marine Corps. Never, ever, come in office as a nice guy. You can be the nicest and coolest guy on earth and all can learn that but you don't show that or lead others to believe that when you come in day 1 to address them. If you do you will have lost every thing from the beginning.

So, lead from a position of strength. And then negotiate from a position of strength. Chicago's gang leadership structure have been largely wiped out. That is one of the problems. Force leaders to emerge among them and then negotiate from strength that they police their own gang members. If your (mayor's) streets are not bloodbaths you will give them space by instructing your officers to back off and not be harassing. Your streets turn into a blood bath, little old black grandmothers complain they are terrified to walk the streets, then: "I'll order my cops to go in and wipe all of you up off the face of the earth. No one will make money. I'll take the whole god--- pie, because I'm a greedy mutha f--- like that. I don't give a f--- about the President or the Governor, I'll beat that Cub Scout into an inch of his life with my own fists."

But violence and threats are insufficient. The greater black population of Chicago needs hope. Those sleeping on the cold streets need shelter. So, you break open the city piggy banks. You become--accused by your enemies--a communist. You reduce or eliminate taxes for a lot of corporations and you have your economist come p with inventive ways of raising revenue from all the once out of wok flooding into jobs. You want to create an environment so good--so good doing the right and average Joe thing--no one wants to join any gangs in Chicago and they literally struggle with recruitment. You force the gangs de facto to become *organized* and one might even say *civilized.*

I'm sure there are other things that need to be done but those are some. Not really rocket science.
Excellent post! Reminds me of the movie "Lean on Me" about such a superintendent in a blackboard-jungle school.
 
I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.

I believe that the greater frequency of death penalty for blacks may be due to longer rap sheets.

So you believe the law should be applied unequally based on race?
 
So you believe the law should be applied unequally based on race?
Absolutely not! The courts and juries do properly take prior criminal activity into account at Fatima hearings or their state equivalent.
 
Absolutely not! The courts and juries do properly take prior criminal activity into account at Fatima hearings or their state equivalent.

Then how would this be accomplished?

I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.
 
I believe that the important thing to do is ensure that when blacks kill blacks the death penalty is applied. If more black on black gang killings ended in a death penalty it would do wonders for crime.

I believe that the greater frequency of death penalty for blacks may be due to longer rap sheets.

I think the study I mentioned -- if that is what you are referring to -- took into account variables such as longer rap sheets and still found disparities. I think studies like this may be one of the reasons many states have separate trial and penalty phases for these cases.

The question that remains for me is why is the US so relatively enthusiastic for the death penalty when most countries in our hemisphere and our closest allies elsewhere have abandoned it. True, we have higher crime rates, but public frustration has us select but a few of the thousands of killers to execute, much like the original meaning of scapegoat, where the ancients piled all their sins on one creature and chased him into the desert to die. We claim it is a deterrent, but try to make is less painful. Wouldn't it make more sense to make it as horrific as possible? Ted Bundy, one of our most murderous, took his practice to Florida, one of the states that executes the most, from states that do it far less frequently.

I suppose that conservative Protestant religious traditions -- similar to those in the Middle East -- account for some of this. I think Israel reserves the death penalty for people like Eichmann. Despite a ghastly Middle Ages history, Catholic countries, excepting Franco's Spain dont have it. Perhaps it's because Catholics shy away from predestination, and are less strict in dividing folks into saved and not. Maybe it's our Wild West traditions, but I assume Canada had a Wild West of its own.

I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts.
 
Because all people are entitled to a trial in this country. End of story.

And for the record, life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty. I mean, I personally don't think a government that acts like its worst citizens is worthy of existing, but if money is all you care about, then life in prison is what you should be supporting anyway.

How is providing room, board, and three meals for life cheaper than a box of ammo and 5-10 rifles?
 
How is providing room, board, and three meals for life cheaper than a box of ammo and 5-10 rifles?

Firstly, that is not a method considered ethical to kill people, so we can't use that.

Secondly, a lot of the cost comes from various appeals and challenges to the initial ruling. The average amount of time between conviction and execution is something like 15 years.

And given the number of people we have locked up only to find out later on they were innocent, I have no inclination to limit appeals. That will do nothing but increase the number of innocent people killed by the state.
 
Absolutely not! The courts and juries do properly take prior criminal activity into account at Fatima hearings or their state equivalent.

You believe the law should not be applied unequally based on race. Here's the problem:

The law is applied unequally based on race. Your "we should just murder anyone suspected or accused of a crime" idea is going to end up just being genocide.
 
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