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The need to abolish Police unions

jdog said:
OK you are now obviously trolling, stop trying to derail the topic or I will report your actions.
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(Sigh) Police have as much of a right to union representation as anyone else.

Your claiming that the use of their earned wages paid in union dues is a waste of "tax payer dollars" led us down this path.

I merely showed that your argument about wasting tax dollars on police unions was fallacious. :shrug:
 
holbritter said:
Why?.....
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Because the unions represent the government, who represents the public? No one, it is a one sided system designed to screw the public.
 
jdog said:
Because the unions represent the government, who represents the public? No one, it is a one sided system designed to screw the public.
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Incorrect :no:

Public sector unions represent public sector workers.

Our interests as taxpayers is supposed to be represented by our elected officials.
 
jdog said:
Most Republicans are liberals... they simply support tyranny for different reasons. True conservatives are libertarians. Now you know the difference. You are welcome.
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lol, just keep swimming bud, his position is more libertarian than yours is.
 
Captain Adverse said:
(Sigh) Police have as much of a right to union representation as anyone else.

Your claiming that the use of their earned wages paid in union dues is a waste of "tax payer dollars" led us down this path.

I merely showed that your argument about wasting tax dollars on police unions was fallacious. :shrug:
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The issue is not the tax dollars and you know that, the issue is that the unions are representing government interests while putting criminals in a position to abuse the public. The public good is not represented in this process whatsoever. It is bad enough we do not have citizens boards deciding the fate of bad cops, but when the system cannot even police itself because of the abuse of the system created by a one sided unionized cartel insures that cops can literally get away with any crime they decide to commit and not even be removed from the position it is way past time to get rid of the unions, and to concentrate on the public good instead of the criminals in government.
 
Public unions are corrupt to the core. Even left wing poster president FDR thought they were a bad idea.

Unions negotiate over public funds with people they pay to elect. Many state governments are in the tank for unions and public unions are the main reason states have unfunded pension liabilities. They suck. Find a state/city with debt issues and you've found a state with large and powerful public unions.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Incorrect :no:

Public sector unions represent public sector workers.

Our interests as taxpayers is supposed to be represented by our elected officials.
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Public sector worker is synonymous with government. There are only two sides, the government and the public.
 
TobyOne said:
Public unions are corrupt to the core. Even left wing poster president FDR thought they were a bad idea.

Unions negotiate over public funds with people they pay to elect. Many state governments are in the tank for unions and public unions are the main reason states have unfunded pension liabilities. They suck. Find a state/city with debt issues and you've found a state with large and powerful public unions.
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Exactly! The public unions OWN the elected officials who sell their souls to them to get the campaign contributions to get elected. They bend the public over and tag team them. There are only two sides the government and the public, and the public is getting hosed.
 
Fishking said:
I've been saying for a while now that one of the steps to improving law enforcement is to get rid of police unions.
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How would that happen, exactly? I mean, you must have identified what it is about law enforcement that needs improving, right? So how would abolishing the union address what you've identified?
 
jdog said:
OK you are now obviously trolling, stop trying to derail the topic or I will report your actions.
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Oh okay. You're one of those...
 
oh ****ing wow; here we go with stupid again ............. folks here @ DP wanna know how tax payer dollars end up paying police unions?

typically it goes like this: tax payer $$$$ go to government entity, government entity pays government employee, government employee pays UNION DUES with deduction from tax payer paid salary

why is this so difficult for the dumb masses to figure out?????????? ................... or is it JUST disingenuous bull**** & pure ignorance?????????


at the end of the rinse/repeat cycle police unions protect bad ass, ****ty cops, period & they do it WITH TAX PAYER DOLLAR$$$$$$$$$$$..........
 
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holbritter said:
So if you work for the state or Feds, you're not entitled to be represented? You don't think governments as employers take advantage of their workers like the private sector? The majority of government jobs are lower waged than the comparable private sector position. A big reason people take a thankless position in a state or fed workforce is for the benefits, not the salary.

A salary that is taxed at the same rate as a salary in the private sector.
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You are represented because you are a citizen of the state. You can vote for officials who support your cause. You can encourage other citizens to vote with you.

I doubt police officers make the same as security guards or armored car guards. There are counties where the average police man is making $100K+.

Policemen retire after 20 years. So if you start at 22 you can retire at 42 with pension.

Also, the problem we have with police is that it's difficult for mayors and governors to reform police departments because of the unions.

Finally, are you OK with police officers and firefighters going on strike?

My point is that in the public sector, the usual checks and balances that force labor and management to compromise don't exist. If a private sector union goes on strike too long the business closes down and everyone loses. The same is not true with the public sector.

You can have representation without strikes and wage bargaining.
 
jdog said:
Because the unions represent the government, who represents the public? No one, it is a one sided system designed to screw the public.
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The unions do not represent the government - they represent the employee.
 
jdog said:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-says/&usg=AFQjCNFf3WQhdDLZEafoYwJnpp6Uytpu5Q

This article illustrates a problem with public ( not private ) unions. People who work for government and police especially should not be able to skirt the law and receive special treatment because they have access to expensive legal muscle via unions paid for by tax payer dollars.

In this article it is explained that hundreds of police who have been dismissed for crimes against the public have been rehired due to legal shenanigans. It is impossible to get rid of even the worst of the psychopath's who commit violent crimes against innocent civilians because of the powerful unions who protect them. Some of these psychopath's have been found guilty of victimizing people time and again and yet their departments are powerless to fire them.

Our entire system has become as corrupt as any third world country....
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Completely agree.
 
jdog said:
You are being irrationally dishonest, but that is simply the liberal mindset.... My wages come from the voluntary purchase of goods and services in the free market, not the forced theft of tax dollars by the threat of violence.
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Did you just accuse Captain Adverse, of all people, of having a "liberal mindset"?
 
Public unions are represented by the people the unions elected - to the detriment of the public they serve.

The people the unions elected do not represent the people. They represent the unions.


jghiretire said:
The unions do not represent the government - they represent the employee.
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jdog said:
Because the unions represent the government, who represents the public? No one, it is a one sided system designed to screw the public.
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No, they represent the employees of the government. State, local and federal. How does it screw the public?
 
cuban smokes said:
oh ****ing wow; here we go with stupid again ............. folks here @ DP wanna know how tax payer dollars end up paying police unions?

typically it goes like this: tax payer $$$$ go to government entity, government entity pays government employee, government employee pays UNION DUES with deduction from tax payer paid salary

why is this so difficult for the dumb masses to figure out?????????? ................... or is it JUST disingenuous bull**** & pure ignorance?????????


at the end of the rinse/repeat cycle police unions protect bad ass, ****ty cops, period & they do it WITH TAX PAYER DOLLAR$$$$$$$$$$$..........
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You do understand that these cops also pay taxes? Every government employee also pays taxes. Hmmm.. I guess you can say they pay their own salary.
 
jdog said:
And where do their wages come from??? Tax dollars.... follow the money.
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So, any company that receives business from public employees are making their profits from tax dollars. Faulty logic.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
You are represented because you are a citizen of the state. You can vote for officials who support your cause. You can encourage other citizens to vote with you.

I doubt police officers make the same as security guards or armored car guards. There are counties where the average police man is making $100K+.

Policemen retire after 20 years. So if you start at 22 you can retire at 42 with pension.

Also, the problem we have with police is that it's difficult for mayors and governors to reform police departments because of the unions.

Finally, are you OK with police officers and firefighters going on strike?

My point is that in the public sector, the usual checks and balances that force labor and management to compromise don't exist. If a private sector union goes on strike too long the business closes down and everyone loses. The same is not true with the public sector.

You can have representation without strikes and wage bargaining.
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Actually, I was commenting on public unions of all gov. employees, not specifically the police union or teachers union. People see those two unions and assume all public unions are the same, but they are not.

In NY we have the Taylor Law, so public employees cannot strike. I do not know offhand if other states have that as well.

But public employees can still be laid off and lose their jobs. Again, not referring to the police and firefighters. That's a powerful tool management uses to keep the unions reasonable when negotiating.

As far as income, again I was referring to them in general. However, there is no way in hell I would put myself in their shoes for $100k a year. There are plenty of people in the private sector that make that and more, and they don't have to risk their lives by putting on a targeted uniform. Many "sanitation engineers" get paid more than that to collect garbage. Oh, but they have a union as well.
 
holbritter said:
You do understand that these cops also pay taxes? Every government employee also pays taxes. Hmmm.. I guess you can say they pay their own salary.
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sure, these LE employees are paying taxes but the disproportionate share is coming from non LE tax payers
 
Grand Mal said:
How would that happen, exactly? I mean, you must have identified what it is about law enforcement that needs improving, right? So how would abolishing the union address what you've identified?
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Unions end up being motivated to protect themselves and grow, no matter what. They will protect even bad workers because if they can protect the bad ones than then the less bad will also be save, and so on. Now, for a business this means a less productive workforce, but in the case of police, it means people getting killed when they shouldn't have.

To answer your question more succinctly, it would help bring better quality-control measures to the police force.
 
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