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The Case for Safe Spaces

MrWonka

MrWonka

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Like most things that are universally attacked and hated on by the majority or angry old people who don't like new ideas Safe Spaces are a good idea whose time has come, and are woefully misunderstood by their haters.

First, Safe Spaces do not in anyway stifle free speech, in fact a safe space in and of itself is an expression of frees speech. Freedom of speech does not simply give you the right to say whatever you want, it also gives you the right to walk away and ignore it if you think it's a bunch of bull**** that you're sick of listening to. It has long been common for those who wish to protest the statements of an opponent to walk out on a speech to demonstrate how worthless you think their words are.

Secondly, this notion that college campuses are important venues where controversial ideas can be flushed out and heard is just silly at this point. Maybe 30 years ago that was true. During the 60's and 70's I'm sure they were really important, but in the age of the internet they are not. Every idiot and their dog has a blog in today's world, and every idea no matter how controversial can be found on the internet. There's a reddit out there for just about any controversial topic you can think of. You can follow any speaker you want to hear from on Twitter and Facebook. Ann Coulter isn't showing up on Berkeley's campus to inform anyone or give them an opportunity to hear alternative views. Everybody that wants to know what Ann Coulter thinks about a topic can easily google it. Ann Coulter tries to show up on Berkeley specifically to troll and inflame people she knows hate her. People like her and most of the Alt Right use free speech as a guise because they want the attention that a counter protest gives them. They understand that no publicity is bad publicity and the free press they gain every time one of their speeches gets cancelled gives them a bump in sales for whatever ****ty book tour they're currently on.

Third, a college education is significantly less optional today than it was 50 years ago. For many people going to college is just about the only realistic path to a middle class or upper middle class life style. In our high schools and elementary schools it has long been a common practice to restrict controversial speech to insure a calm learning environment. The idea is that education is too important to our young people, and since they have little or no choice, but to go to school we have to insure that they can attend class without having to deal with bull**** like this. Insuring that College students can attend classes and live on campus without having to deal with harassment from political ideologues is not a bad thing. Bullying doesn't end when you graduate high school.

Lastly, a safe space does not mean people do not have to hear controversial statements or criticism. It simply means they have at least one place where they can go to get away from the hate and the constant judgement. If you're gay, trans, a woman, black, Muslim, atheist..... you live in a world brimming with people who hate you for absolutely no rational reason whatsoever. You can barely walk down the average street without having some asshole having to say something to you. Being attacked and criticized for who you are is a part of your daily routine. Straight White Christian Men have an entire country that is brimming with safe spaces for them because they control it all. Every rural small town in this country is a safe space composed almost entirely of straight white Christians who practically live their entire lives without ever having to hear anyone criticize them or their beliefs. Fox News, Conservative talk radio, and the numerous right wing extremist websites out there are all safe spaces that conservative snowflakes can run to when they can't handle hearing the truth about them being told by the mainstream media.

The majority of Americans in this country do not vote. They shy away from heated political dialogue because of how ****ed up it can be at times. Every time you turn on the television or go on facebook you have to deal with angry political vitriol. It is a necessary evil that most of us have to deal with at times in order to fight for what's right, but having the ability to get away from it all, and not deal with it is a welcome respite at times for just about everyone. It has long been an unwritten rule that religion and politics are not to be brought up in day to day conversations, and while I think there are certainly negatives to that rule, it's hard to blame those who want it in enforced.
 
MrWonka said:
Like most things that are universally attacked and hated on by the majority or angry old people who don't like new ideas Safe Spaces are a good idea whose time has come, and are woefully misunderstood by their haters.

First, Safe Spaces do not in anyway stifle free speech, in fact a safe space in and of itself is an expression of frees speech. Freedom of speech does not simply give you the right to say whatever you want, it also gives you the right to walk away and ignore it if you think it's a bunch of bull**** that you're sick of listening to. It has long been common for those who wish to protest the statements of an opponent to walk out on a speech to demonstrate how worthless you think their words are.

Secondly, this notion that college campuses are important venues where controversial ideas can be flushed out and heard is just silly at this point. Maybe 30 years ago that was true. During the 60's and 70's I'm sure they were really important, but in the age of the internet they are not. Every idiot and their dog has a blog in today's world, and every idea no matter how controversial can be found on the internet. There's a reddit out there for just about any controversial topic you can think of. You can follow any speaker you want to hear from on Twitter and Facebook. Ann Coulter isn't showing up on Berkeley's campus to inform anyone or give them an opportunity to hear alternative views. Everybody that wants to know what Ann Coulter thinks about a topic can easily google it. Ann Coulter tries to show up on Berkeley specifically to troll and inflame people she knows hate her. People like her and most of the Alt Right use free speech as a guise because they want the attention that a counter protest gives them. They understand that no publicity is bad publicity and the free press they gain every time one of their speeches gets cancelled gives them a bump in sales for whatever ****ty book tour they're currently on.

Third, a college education is significantly less optional today than it was 50 years ago. For many people going to college is just about the only realistic path to a middle class or upper middle class life style. In our high schools and elementary schools it has long been a common practice to restrict controversial speech to insure a calm learning environment. The idea is that education is too important to our young people, and since they have little or no choice, but to go to school we have to insure that they can attend class without having to deal with bull**** like this. Insuring that College students can attend classes and live on campus without having to deal with harassment from political ideologues is not a bad thing. Bullying doesn't end when you graduate high school.

Lastly, a safe space does not mean people do not have to hear controversial statements or criticism. It simply means they have at least one place where they can go to get away from the hate and the constant judgement. If you're gay, trans, a woman, black, Muslim, atheist..... you live in a world brimming with people who hate you for absolutely no rational reason whatsoever. You can barely walk down the average street without having some asshole having to say something to you. Being attacked and criticized for who you are is a part of your daily routine. Straight White Christian Men have an entire country that is brimming with safe spaces for them because they control it all. Every rural small town in this country is a safe space composed almost entirely of straight white Christians who practically live their entire lives without ever having to hear anyone criticize them or their beliefs. Fox News, Conservative talk radio, and the numerous right wing extremist websites out there are all safe spaces that conservative snowflakes can run to when they can't handle hearing the truth about them being told by the mainstream media.

The majority of Americans in this country do not vote. They shy away from heated political dialogue because of how ****ed up it can be at times. Every time you turn on the television or go on facebook you have to deal with angry political vitriol. It is a necessary evil that most of us have to deal with at times in order to fight for what's right, but having the ability to get away from it all, and not deal with it is a welcome respite at times for just about everyone. It has long been an unwritten rule that religion and politics are not to be brought up in day to day conversations, and while I think there are certainly negatives to that rule, it's hard to blame those who want it in enforced.
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You should retreat back into your safe space because from your post it's pretty clear that your aren't going to be able to handle the criticism of your silly idea.
 
The only appropriate "safe spaces" I can think of that should be on a college campus are:

1. Your dorm room.
2. The cafeteria.
3. The library.

You should be able to eat and study without being disturbed and of course your living quarters should be a sanctuary. But other than that, it is a battlefield of ideas.
 
I support safe spaces...why the hell not? That there is opposition to this boggles the mind...some folks just don't have anything better to do, I guess.

That said, this thread is going to get trolled like crazy. ;)
 
MrWonka said:
Like most things that are universally attacked and hated on by the majority or angry old people who don't like new ideas Safe Spaces are a good idea whose time has come, and are woefully misunderstood by their haters.

First, Safe Spaces do not in anyway stifle free speech, in fact a safe space in and of itself is an expression of frees speech."Free speech is not allowed here" is a limit on speech, an unreasonable one...a hostility towards free speech.
Secondly, this notion that college campuses are important venues where controversial ideas can be flushed out and heard is just silly at this point. Maybe 30 years ago that was true. And should be again, the correct response to the broken university is not to accept it, it is to fix it.

Third, a college education is significantly less optional today than it was 50 years ago. "I have to be there" is not a valid excuse for attempting to control the mouths of others.

Lastly, a safe space does not mean people do not have to hear controversial statements or criticism. It simply means they have at least one place where they can go to get away from the hate and the constant judgement. If people cant function in the real world then yes they should get out of the real world till they can, but the place to do that is not in sanctuaries from real life here and there and everywhere, it is in a mental health situation, with a diagnosis, and the aim should be for the weak to get stronger/better. We should never normalize invalidism, we have already done way too much of that in Victim Culture (the feminists have been the biggest drivers), we need less not more of that.
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OlNate said:
I support safe spaces...why the hell not? That there is opposition to this boggles the mind...some folks just don't have anything better to do, I guess.

That said, this thread is going to get trolled like crazy. ;)
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Listen and then you will know.
 
MrWonka said:
Like most ... edit for space...enforced.
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I think you have a well thought out idea. It is mostly wrong. You are correct that safe spaces are often misunderstood and poked fun at.

However I feel you are completely wrong on any benefits they have. Part of living in a community is dealing with all individuals including those we disagree with and find offensive. When children look for other to provide a space for them that limits what interactions are allowed it does not help these children develop proper social skills. It also teaches an entitlement mentality that these children expect someone to provide them s space. Part of maturing from a child to adult is preparing oneself for the struggles of life, these spaces do not prepare children to deal with the adult world.

Now if these spaces are private homes or business fine space away or If the school doesn't use federal funds space away. that's their right. But as a student on campus paying tuition you should be able to say I'm with Her or Make Merika Great anyplace you want.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
The only appropriate "safe spaces" I can think of that should be on a college campus are:

1. Your dorm room.
2. The cafeteria.
3. The library.

You should be able to eat and study without being disturbed and of course your living quarters should be a sanctuary. But other than that, it is a battlefield of ideas.
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Library should be a given as every shouldn't be talking while in there.

Cafeteria is toss up. Back in my RU days our study group often ate lunch and reviewed topics before a quiz. I can see how many PoliSci or Sociology topics could become trigger topics for some easily offended.

Dorm room also a given.
 
Chillfolks said:
Library should be a given as every shouldn't be talking while in there.

Cafeteria is toss up. Back in my RU days our study group often ate lunch and reviewed topics before a quiz. I can see how many PoliSci or Sociology topics could become trigger topics for some easily offended.

Dorm room also a given.
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Good point on the cafeteria. I wasn't really thinking about people who were eating getting into a heated discussion with one another. I was thinking more about it being more a place of protest or activism. I don't think people should be marching through the cafeteria chanting while other people are trying to eat.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Good point on the cafeteria. I wasn't really thinking about people who were eating getting into a heated discussion with one another. I was thinking more about it being more a place of protest or activism. I don't think people should be marching through the cafeteria chanting while other people are trying to eat.
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Not unless they want Tuna surprise and peas tossed at them.

I agree lunch isn't time for PETA die in,
 
Skeptic Bob said:
The only appropriate "safe spaces" I can think of that should be on a college campus are:

1. Your dorm room.
2. The cafeteria.
3. The library.

You should be able to eat and study without being disturbed and of course your living quarters should be a sanctuary. But other than that, it is a battlefield of ideas.
Click to expand...

So not your actual classroom? I mean sure if the class is specifically geared toward philosophy or political discussion fine, but can you go to math class? How about getting to and from the cafeteria and your dorm room? Do women need to be subjected to cat calling on their way to class. Should gay people be able to go to the library without having to deal with someone yelling faggot out their car window at them?

Are counter protests legal? How is a safe space significantly different than a counter protest?
 
Crovax said:
You should retreat back into your safe space because from your post it's pretty clear that your aren't going to be able to handle the criticism of your silly idea.
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Yet you feel the need to deflect and attack me rather than actually put forth any criticism of my argument.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
But other than that, it is a battlefield of ideas.
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Why? Because you want it to be? Because as a white man you have no idea what it truly feels like to be constantly out numbered?

Why do most political forums such as this one have moderators? Most debates have rules do they not? There are time limits to insure both sides can be heard. Obvious personal attacks are frequently called out and stricken from the record. In a court room you have a judge who decides what argument can and cannot be made. Which ones are relevant, which ones are over the line, and which ones have the tendency to unfairly bias a jury.

Do you seriously believe there are any trans-gendered or gay people in the world who haven't heard all the bigoted arguments for why they are actually perverted sinners that were abused as children? Do you think that there are a lot of gay people out there that are going to wake tomorrow and hear a brilliant argument from some religious fanatic that's going to make them all of a sudden decide they find the opposite sex attractive? Do you think there are a lot of overweight women who are going to hear some asshole call them a fat ass and just wake up to the reality that ice cream is fattening all of a sudden?

You want a battlefield of ideas, fine, but hate speech is not an idea. Hate speech is ignorance. Hate speech is the opposite of an idea. Even on a website like this which is specifically designed for political discussion there are trolls that will get suspended or bounced entirely if all they're interested in is posting nonstop hate speech. It seems that a setting which is designed for educational purposes it should be more than acceptable to require standards of discourse, or at the very least insure that those who do not wish to deal with it a way to avoid the discourse if they so choose.
 
MrWonka said:
So not your actual classroom? I mean sure if the class is specifically geared toward philosophy or political discussion fine, but can you go to math class? How about getting to and from the cafeteria and your dorm room? Do women need to be subjected to cat calling on their way to class. Should gay people be able to go to the library without having to deal with someone yelling faggot out their car window at them?

Are counter protests legal? How is a safe space significantly different than a counter protest?
Click to expand...

I don't think most people define "safe spaces" as places where people can't hurl slurs at you. It is usually a place where people of like opinion or identity group can express themselves without having their opinions challenged.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Free speech is not allowed here" is a limit on speech,
an unreasonable one...a hostility towards free speech.
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And how do you feel about bikers and other citizens blocking the protests of the Westboro Baptists or requiring them to be held at a distance to a soldiers funeral out of respect for the family?

Hawkeye10 said:
And should be again, the correct response to the broken university is not to accept it, it is to fix it.
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The university is not broken. It's been replaced with something even better.

Hawkeye10 said:
I have to be there" is not a valid excuse for attempting to control the mouths of others.
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Yes, it is. Free speech gives you the freedom to walk away from speech as much as it gives you the right to speak it. If the speaker chases after you and follows you every where you go that is harassment. Restraining orders can be placed on individuals who refuse to leave others alone. If someone is being verbally abusive to you, and refuses to stop you have a right to leave your house and go to the grocery store and not have to deal with them.

Freedom of speech gives you the right to say what you want, but it does not allow you to say it anywhere you want, whenever you want, or as loud as you want.

Hawkeye10 said:
If people cant function in the real world then yes they should get out of the real world till they can, but the place to do that is not in sanctuaries from real life here and there and everywhere, it is in a mental health situation, with a diagnosis, and the aim should be for the weak to get stronger/better.
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Getting bullied by others does not mean you have a mental problem, the bully does.

I'd love to see some of these alt right assholes try living in a large Muslim country. Watching them scurry to the nearest American Embassy within 5 minutes because they can't handle the "real world" would be hilarious.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
The only appropriate "safe spaces" I can think of that should be on a college campus are:

1. Your dorm room.
2. The cafeteria.
3. The library.

You should be able to eat and study without being disturbed and of course your living quarters should be a sanctuary. But other than that, it is a battlefield of ideas.
Click to expand...
Well said!
 
MrWonka said:
Why? Because you want it to be? Because as a white man you have no idea what it truly feels like to be constantly out numbered?
Click to expand...

Be careful about making assumptions about strangers on the internet. I don't know what it is like to be an ethnic minority in the United States but I have spent half my adult life living in countries where whites make up less than 2% of the population and in countries where my atheism could get me killed.

And don't assume that because I want college campuses to be a battlefield of ideas that it means I am in favor of allowing hate speech on campuses. Though we have to be a careful about what we call hate speech.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I don't think most people define "safe spaces" as places where people can't hurl slurs at you. It is usually a place where people of like opinion or identity group can express themselves without having their opinions challenged.
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This is the context in which I usually here the term as well. An it runs completely counter to the mission of universities.

As to slurs and such. People should insult others but they do and they will continue to do so. Grow a thicker skin and ignore the assholes.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I don't think most people define "safe spaces" as places where people can't hurl slurs at you. It is usually a place where people of like opinion or identity group can express themselves without having their opinions challenged.
Click to expand...

My understanding (limited) is it's a place one can have discussion but not attacks. Many people (myself and a number of conservatives included) sure seem to like our safe space here, the religion subforum. One can discuss theology and take any position, but one cannot attack and disparage others. This makes theological discussion possible. Without it being a safe space, we'd just have trolls spamming threads and making any genuine theological discussion impossible. Same concept.
 
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Skeptic Bob said:
Be careful about making assumptions about strangers on the internet. I don't know what it is like to be an ethnic minority in the United States but I have spent half my adult life living in countries where whites make up less than 2% of the population and in countries where my atheism could get me killed.
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Whites enjoy privilege globally. Whites are the global power majority. I also have lived in places wherein whites are a tiny minority, and I was still privileged. In such places, whites are seen as rich, powerful and educated (even when they are not).
 
ecofarm said:
My understanding (limited) is it's a place one can have discussion but not attacks. Many people (myself and a number of conservatives included) sure seem to like our safe space here, the religion subforum. One can discuss theology, and take any position, but one cannot attack and disparage others. This makes theological discussion possible. Without it being a safe space, we'd just have trolls spamming threads and making any genuine theological discussion impossible. Same concept.
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That is just setting ground rules, though. And different ground rules for different situations can be a good thing. Different clubs and organizations in colleges have always had ground rules. But the cases of "safe spaces" I have been hearing about go further than that. Granted, it is a broad term, and a term I don't particularly care for. I am sure there would be cases of it we agree on and cases we disagree on, all under the same umbrella term of "safe space".
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I don't think most people define "safe spaces" as places where people can't hurl slurs at you. It is usually a place where people of like opinion or identity group can express themselves without having their opinions challenged.
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The alt-rights version of "challenging opinions" is to hurl slurs. That's really all they've got. Even the term snowflake in and of itself is a pejorative designed to attack someone personally rather than address their opponents argument. Rather than address whether or not you're being an abusive bully or whether your arguments have merit, you try and undermine your victim, by claiming they're simply too weak to handle "criticism."

That is the whole game plan of the alt right. They know they can't make a rational argument for their side so instead they just troll their opponent. Deliberately make them angry, and then when they react you claim their reaction is a sign of weakness. But whether the person is weak or not has nothing to do with the validity of the argument. It's no different than a bully calling their victim a tattle tail in order to prevent them from getting help to stop the abuse.

Our society is so brimming full of victim shamers that if any person finally gets to the point where they're willing to ask for help it's a pretty good bet they need it.
 
ecofarm said:
Whites enjoy privilege globally. Whites are the global power majority. I also have lived in places wherein whites are a tiny minority, and I was still privileged. In such places, whites are seen as rich, powerful and educated (even when they are not).
Click to expand...

I didn't say I wasn't privileged. I most definitely am. I was responding to the claim that I don't know what it feels like to be "constantly outnumbered".

Also, while I think the positive perception of whites that you mention holds in places like South America and Africa, it falls apart in many places in Asia. In countries like Japan the bias with regard to whites is more likely to be a negative one. But that is a minority of countries.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
And don't assume that because I want college campuses to be a battlefield of ideas that it means I am in favor of allowing hate speech on campuses. Though we have to be a careful about what we call hate speech.
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When you are attacking someone for who they are, and something they have little or no control over that is the definition of hate speech. It is not gay people's fault that bigots are too stupid to realize they can't change who they are. Constructive Criticism can only be constructive if the person receiving the criticism can realistically use the information to better themselves. Being straight does not make a person "better," and even if it did there is nothing a gay person could do about it. So what exactly is the goal of the criticism other than to try and make them feel like ****?
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I didn't say I wasn't privileged. I most definitely am. I was responding to the claim that I don't know what it feels like to be "constantly outnumbered".
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But there's no underlying "us vs them" in our situations. So being outnumbered doesn't really matter. We're looked up to. Being a member of the elite doesn't count as being outnumbered in any real sense.

Also, while I think the positive perception of whites that you mention holds in places like South America and Africa, it falls apart in many places in Asia. In countries like Japan the bias with regard to whites is more likely to be a negative one. But that is a minority of countries.
Click to expand...

Still "rich American tourist bigshot". Might be looked down upon in a superficial way (as one might look down on any outsider), but still considered a member of the elite.
 
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