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My Final Word on President Trump.

Captain Adverse

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
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Back in March 2016 I decided to commit my vote to Mr. Trump. Here is that post:

Captain Adverse said:
I guess I have to commit now. In a race between Hillary and Trump, I can't let my vote go to waste for an Independent as usual. I'll vote Trump.

I'll vote for him for several reasons.

1. I've already promised to commit to the candidate who will support Second Amendment rights. That appears to be Trump.

2. I consider Hillary a party hack of the worst sort. Her promises are as empty as every other recent Democratic (and let's face it GOP hack) candidate. Neither party will really allow for actual change absent a grass roots driven rebellion. At least (Edit for this OP as I believed at the time) in the GOP Trump represents that.

3. I don't consider Trump as "evil" as the left-wing media has been trying to make him. As I've stated in other threads, as a New Yorker I recognize the opportunistic bombast of a fellow New Yorker. Trump didn't expect to be this successful but his current campaign is driven by maintaining that momentum. I am fairly certain that his actual campaign as a Presidential candidate against Hillary will reflect some major policy changes to make him more appealing to the general public. It's what a salesman does.

4. I don't consider Trump a threat as a seated President. Like any other President (see Obama) he needs Congress to get anything done outside of his duties as Chief Executive. Congress is still firmly in the pockets of existing special interests who will not let any President upset the apple cart.

5. I am annoyed by all of those who rail against the alleged intolerance of the Trump campaign by demonstrating actual intolerance through actions geared to create self-fulfilling prophecies. This exemplified by situations like the Chicago "protest," and all the other attempts to create scenes at his rallies. When you intentionally poke a hornets nest and get stung, why blame the hornets?

So all things equal, I'd rather see a short-term blowhard like Trump in office, then a business as usual political hack like Hillary in there. At least it would be four years less hackery even if nothing else.
Click to expand...
(Bolded, underlined, and edit in parentheses for purposes of this OP).

My increased advocacy for Mr. Trump has been based on items 3 and 5 in my quoted post above. The long and the short of it is, I never in my wildest dreams expected the kind of emotional outrage that resulted from his election after the shock wore off...although in retrospect I guess it was inevitable given all the bile presented during the campaign.

Still, in other posts (available on request) from the campaign period and after, I tried to provide a rational response to all the fallacious emotional arguments presented by opponents to his election.

Now people have become so invested in their crusade, they fail to see how it created a self-fulfilling prophecy...the inevitable meltdown of Mr. Trump.

I wonder how many of my peers who enjoy calling Mr. Trump a bully, will be able to recognize the same evil in themselves? :unsure13:

Trump opponents have determined by a process of demonization started after the MSM realized he was a real contender and began the litany of SJW labeling (misogynist, racist, xenophobe, etc.) representing him as the essence of modern evil. I.e., A rich, white, entitled male.

That made it open season on him, and anyone who dared to support him.

I admit I am disappointed in how Mr. Trump has allowed it to affect his behavior.

But I also realize he feels under siege, not knowing who he can and cannot trust. Not surprising when he has faced massive disloyalty to the office, if not to him, by numbers of "former and current" members of government who have been "leaking" anything and everything they think can undermine his position and lead to impeachment.

I wonder how anyone of you who prefer to demonize others as not worthy of consideration would react to the same type of unrelenting personal attacks and efforts to undermine your very existence? IMO, judging by some of the responses in this Forum? Not very well. :no: (Cue the "I'm not President and don't have to be an example" responses.)

Well, I have no intention of arguing the point any longer. You simply can't argue with "true believers." I voted for him recognizing all his shortcomings, and I will continue to presume him innocent of misconduct until proven otherwise.
 
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How did backing DJT early work out for the "beleagured" Attorney General?
 
Captain Adverse said:
Back in March 2016 I decided to commit my vote to Mr. Trump. Here is that post:

(Bolded, underlined, and edit in parentheses for purposes of this OP).

My increased advocacy for Mr. Trump has been based on items 3 and 5 in my quoted post above. The long and the short of it is, I never in my wildest dreams expected the kind of emotional outrage that resulted from his election after the shock wore off...although in retrospect I guess it was inevitable given all the bile presented during the campaign.

Still, in other posts (available on request) from the campaign period and after, I tried to provide a rational response to all the fallacious emotional arguments presented by opponents to his election.

Now people have become so invested in their crusade, they fail to see how it created a self-fulfilling prophecy...the inevitable meltdown of Mr. Trump.

I wonder how many of my peers who enjoy calling Mr. Trump a bully, will be able to recognize the same evil in themselves? :unsrue13:

Trump opponents have determined by a process of demonization started after the MSM realized he was a real contender and began the litany of SJW labeling (misogynist, racist, xenophobe, etc.) representing him as the essence of modern evil. I.e., A rich, white, entitled male.

That made it open season on him, and anyone who dared to support him.

I admit I am disappointed in how Mr. Trump has allowed it to affect his behavior.

But I also realize he feels under siege, not know who he can and cannot trust. Not surprising when he has faced massive disloyalty to the office, if not to him, by numbers of "former and current" members of government who have been "leaking" anything and everything they think can undermine his position and lead to impeachment.

I wonder how anyone of you who prefer to demonize others as not worthy of consideration would react to the same type of unrelenting personal attacks and efforts to undermine your very existence? IMO, judging by some of the responses in this Forum? Not very well. :no: (Cue the "I not President and don't have to be an example" responses.)

Well, I have no intention of arguing the point any longer. You simply can't argue with "true believers." I voted for him recognizing all his shortcomings, and I will continue to presume him innocent of misconduct until proven otherwise.
Click to expand...

When you have trumpsters openly admitting that they can't take it any more, after six months, you know something is wrong!
 
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Captain Adverse said:
First personal attack/ straw man response. Thanks :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

lolz. It's a fact. You're giving up after six months! Obamabots lasted longer than that. And calling you a trumpster isn't a personal attack. I didn't attack anything about you except your undying support for President Trump.
 
You consider all arguments against Trump fallacious because they don't agree with your internal narrative. Your perception of Trump as a poor, misunderstood protagonist that just wants to serve our country is the thing that's fallacious.

Any "siege" that Trump is under he has brought on himself with his constant lies, middle-school attacks against his perceived enemies, and his appointing of many department heads that put have this nation in danger.

I'm sorry you've so invested yourself in this loser. You have my sympathies.
 
lurchadams said:
You consider all arguments against Trump fallacious because they don't agree with your internal narrative. Your perception of Trump as a poor, misunderstood protagonist that just wants to serve our country is the thing that's fallacious.

Any "siege" that Trump is under he has brought on himself with his constant lies, middle-school attacks against his perceived enemies, and his appointing of many department heads that put have this nation in danger.

I'm sorry you've so invested yourself in this loser. You have my sympathies.
Click to expand...

Double Like!
 
To summarize: I can't defend the catastrophic Trump administration anymore. I'm going to blame everyone but Trump for "how Mr. Trump has allowed it to affect his behavior."

Bill and Hillary Clinton had it much worse. The media can write stories about you but when the House and the Senate hate you, it's another story. Investigation after investigation was thrown at the Clintons. False stories all over the new FOX News. They got through it.

Trump's problems are self-created:

1. He was warned about Gen. Flynn but he ignored it. This created countless problems.
2. He chose to have inappropriate conversations trying to get Comey to stop investigating Flynn.
3. He chose to fire Comey creating Mueller. Creating more hearings and drama.
4. He chose to tweet a lie that Obama wiretapped him launching yet more investigations.
5. He chose to keep Tweeting about Russia

Stop blaming the media for Trump's disastrous presidency.

Who forced Trump to start talking political trash in front of a bunch of Boy Scouts? Who does that?

Now the White House is in total chaos. Trump chose his staff of inexperienced incompetent people. Now he's going to fire the Attorney General six months into his first term. Whose fault is that?

Stop it. Then stop this nonsense that everyone pointing out the obvious are "true believers." You're the true believer if you STILL believe Trump is fit to be president. He's a mess.

Trump is the one who needs to be fired.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Back in March 2016 I decided to commit my vote to Mr. Trump. Here is that post:

(Bolded, underlined, and edit in parentheses for purposes of this OP).

My increased advocacy for Mr. Trump has been based on items 3 and 5 in my quoted post above. The long and the short of it is, I never in my wildest dreams expected the kind of emotional outrage that resulted from his election after the shock wore off...although in retrospect I guess it was inevitable given all the bile presented during the campaign.

Still, in other posts (available on request) from the campaign period and after, I tried to provide a rational response to all the fallacious emotional arguments presented by opponents to his election.

Now people have become so invested in their crusade, they fail to see how it created a self-fulfilling prophecy...the inevitable meltdown of Mr. Trump.

I wonder how many of my peers who enjoy calling Mr. Trump a bully, will be able to recognize the same evil in themselves? :unsure13:

Trump opponents have determined by a process of demonization started after the MSM realized he was a real contender and began the litany of SJW labeling (misogynist, racist, xenophobe, etc.) representing him as the essence of modern evil. I.e., A rich, white, entitled male.

That made it open season on him, and anyone who dared to support him.

I admit I am disappointed in how Mr. Trump has allowed it to affect his behavior.

But I also realize he feels under siege, not knowing who he can and cannot trust. Not surprising when he has faced massive disloyalty to the office, if not to him, by numbers of "former and current" members of government who have been "leaking" anything and everything they think can undermine his position and lead to impeachment.

I wonder how anyone of you who prefer to demonize others as not worthy of consideration would react to the same type of unrelenting personal attacks and efforts to undermine your very existence? IMO, judging by some of the responses in this Forum? Not very well. :no: (Cue the "I'm not President and don't have to be an example" responses.)

Well, I have no intention of arguing the point any longer. You simply can't argue with "true believers." I voted for him recognizing all his shortcomings, and I will continue to presume him innocent of misconduct until proven otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yawn.

A. Calling a bully a 'bully' doesn't make the person saying it a bully. Nor it is evil.
B. There is no crusade.
C. Him being 'under siege' is due to his own actions.
D. The only True Believers are those sycophants who still buy the bull**** that Trump is selling.
 
lurchadams said:
You consider all arguments against Trump fallacious because they don't agree with your internal narrative. Your perception of Trump as a poor, misunderstood protagonist that just wants to serve our country is the thing that's fallacious.

Any "siege" that Trump is under he has brought on himself with his constant lies, middle-school attacks against his perceived enemies, and his appointing of many department heads that put have this nation in danger.

I'm sorry you've so invested yourself in this loser. You have my sympathies.
Click to expand...

Let's see if I can list the fallacies.

Argument from omniscience, projection, misrepresentation of facts to suit your own narrative, false sympathy. Thanks.

I think that's enough. The rest to come? Enjoy. :coffeepap:
 
Captain

From my view point I did not see Trump's behavior change before or after the election or even before he got the nomination

He was brash, crude and impolite before getting the nomination, and he has remained that way after the election.

Being a business owner who either had direct control over the business or had licensed his name to others I don't think he has had to deal with governmental style diplomacy/inter personal politics. In his business's it could have been his way or the highway. Or in the case of licensed products, something he did not have to care to much about. His style has probably alienated people within the republican party and certainly in the democratic party. If he could or would tone down his twitter use, and the brashness, he probably could get more done/win over republicans at least to his side more often.

It truly looks like he has difficulty working with others except when his is the unquestionable boss. With two other levels of government, filled with others who feel they have the power, it is going to create conflict.

Note I am ignoring the media aspect as that is a side show which Trump has helped fuel (ie through his tweets)
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Captain

From my view point I did not see Trump's behavior change before or after the election or even before he got the nomination

He was brash, crude and impolite before getting the nomination, and he has remained that way after the election.

Being a business owner who either had direct control over the business or had licensed his name to others I don't think he has had to deal with governmental style diplomacy/inter personal politics. In his business's it could have been his way or the highway. Or in the case of licensed products, something he did not have to care to much about. His style has probably alienated people within the republican party and certainly in the democratic party. If he could or would tone down his twitter use, and the brashness, he probably could get more done/win over republicans at least to his side more often.

It truly looks like he has difficulty working with others except when his is the unquestionable boss. With two other levels of government, filled with others who feel they have the power, it is going to create conflict.

Note I am ignoring the media aspect as that is a side show which Trump has helped fuel (ie through his tweets)
Click to expand...

Rational and worthy response. Thanks. :)
 
Captain Adverse said:
Let's see if I can list the fallacies.

Argument from omniscience, projection, misrepresentation of facts to suit your own narrative, false sympathy. Thanks.

I think that's enough. The rest to come? Enjoy. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

Dude, it's truly how I feel based on my observations. Accept it - don't accept it. Suit yourself.
 
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SonOfDaedalus said:
To summarize: I can't defend the catastrophic Trump administration anymore. I'm going to blame everyone but Trump for "how Mr. Trump has allowed it to affect his behavior."

Bill and Hillary Clinton had it much worse. The media can write stories about you but when the House and the Senate hate you, it's another story. Investigation after investigation was thrown at the Clintons. False stories all over the new FOX News. They got through it.

Trump's problems are self-created:

1. He was warned about Gen. Flynn but he ignored it. This created countless problems.
2. He chose to have inappropriate conversations trying to get Comey to stop investigating Flynn.
3. He chose to fire Comey creating Mueller. Creating more hearings and drama.
4. He chose to tweet a lie that Obama wiretapped him launching yet more investigations.
5. He chose to keep Tweeting about Russia

Stop blaming the media for Trump's disastrous presidency.

Who forced Trump to start talking political trash in front of a bunch of Boy Scouts? Who does that?

Now the White House is in total chaos. Trump chose his staff of inexperienced incompetent people. Now he's going to fire the Attorney General six months into his first term. Whose fault is that?

Stop it. Then stop this nonsense that everyone pointing out the obvious are "true believers." You're the true believer if you STILL believe Trump is fit to be president. He's a mess.

Trump is the one who needs to be fired.
Click to expand...

I will take issue with characterizing the stories as false, but compare stories on Fox News to stories on every other news channel plus Fox News.

It doesn't even compare.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Rational and worthy response. Thanks. :)
Click to expand...

Thinking about it Ross Perot would probably have had even more difficulty in getting things done in government had he won. He would not have had even the pretense of having a national party behind him that would be expected to help/follow some of his policies. I doubt he would have been diplomatic in trying to get things done, which is probably one of the reasons GM paid him to leave after they bought his company
 
ModerateGOP said:
When you have trumpsters openly admitting that they can't take it any more, after six months, you know something is wrong!
Click to expand...

When you resort to retardation like Trumpsters instead of a respectful Trump supporters, you have already lost the argument, particularly this one.
 
ModerateGOP said:
When you have trumpsters openly admitting that they can't take it any more, after six months, you know something is wrong!
Click to expand...

What "Trumpsters" can't TAKE anymore is a ridiculously biased press, lying Dems and, on THIS site, rude obnoxious anti-Trumpsters. Let's just get THAT right.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Thinking about it Ross Perot would probably have had even more difficulty in getting things done in government had he won. He would not have had even the pretense of having a national party behind him that would be expected to help/follow some of his policies. I doubt he would have been diplomatic in trying to get things done, which is probably one of the reasons GM paid him to leave after they bought his company
Click to expand...

There is no doubt the GOP establishment is behind Trump, its easier to get the daggers in that way.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Thinking about it Ross Perot would probably have had even more difficulty in getting things done in government had he won. He would not have had even the pretense of having a national party behind him that would be expected to help/follow some of his policies. I doubt he would have been diplomatic in trying to get things done, which is probably one of the reasons GM paid him to leave after they bought his company
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.

I remember supporting Perot for similar reasons. That I thought as an outsider he would be able to come in and "clean house."

Now I am older and realize that the business mentality (which is geared to profit) is hard to translate into a government environment and he would probably have faced the same or at least similar issues had bene been elected...as you say without any party support.
 
So you're basically saying we should tolerate Trump's intolerance?
Trump is a victim snowflake that has had a "meltdown" as a result of him losing his choice to wage war against the media and 65% of the population?

What is this "actual change" you were expecting to see in government, that other candidates don't provide?

Are you aware that complex organizations are complex, and the U.S. government is about the largest most complex organization in existence? And you think an outsider celebrity, has the acumen to manage that? I think that says more about you, than Trump, or the people who call out his B.S.

Perot demonstrated acumen. Trump has not. I sympathize partially, I like Perot in retrospect, and it would be nice to have a smart, capable, charismatic, moderate, go in there and shake things up. But Trump just doesn't' fit that bill. He did this out of ego/ambition, and we're all paying the price for it...especially Republicans who have lost their shot and will have to wait a while to get another one after this debacle.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Rational and worthy response. Thanks. :)
Click to expand...

Was Trump warned about Flynn? Did he ignore the warnings?

Did Trump ask Comey to let the investigation on Flynn go?

Did Trump fire the FBI head?

Did Trump tweet that Obama was a sick man who wiretapped him?

Did Trump hire all the people he is now firing?
 
OpportunityCost said:
When you resort to retardation like Trumpsters instead of a respectful Trump supporters, you have already lost the argument, particularly this one.
Click to expand...

MaggieD said:
What "Trumpsters" can't TAKE anymore is a ridiculously biased press, lying Dems and, on THIS site, rude obnoxious anti-Trumpsters. Let's just get THAT right.
Click to expand...

But it's OK that you guys call people like me RINOs. SMH. Call me a RINO or an anti-Trumpster and I don't hold back. Why should I when the President himself calls people way worse things? This isn't being anti-Trump. These are the facts.

Cons have been calling moderates RINOs for years. It's nothing I cared about until they started getting all high and mighty and claimed the moral card is on their side.
 
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